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Post by beaverstever on Feb 5, 2016 10:39:28 GMT -8
- More Bruce minutes. He still seems to cause the rest of the team to wonder what he's doing as he runs his own show of probing the defense ad hoc, but saw less of that last night and generate some offense. He has body movements that are hard to read, and you can tell defenders don't relish trying to stay in front of him.
- Utah seemed determined to not let Tinkle hurt him, defending him well deep and giving lots of help when he looked to take it to the basket. They did an amazing job on him in that he didn't get to the line once (I believe the first time that's happened this year). Still, he led the team in rebounds and drew the defense's attention. I really liked his effort to try and get Poeltl a 5th foul (that wasn't successful at all, but still smart). Not the same confident kid we saw at Arizona, and maybe his early 3 that was way off set the tone. He was a stabilizing force.
-Thompson finally found his range again, and was obviously the difference-maker once that happened. I was very, very impressed with his FTs to win the game - the officials essentially iced him with their long review, and it made no difference - that's some mental toughness there, and extremely valuable to have a clutch FT shooter like that moving forward. His floaters continue to fall as well - when his floater and 3 game are working, he's a real weapon.
- Eubanks showed some nice moves in the post. He got intimidated at times (double-dribble), but he also showed he can set up in the post, make his move, and make hooks over a good 7-footer. Add some strength to those legs this summer, and he could do that at-will next year.
- Nice to see Malcolm not force his game, and that was a huge help. His one 3 attempt was ill-advised and he didn't try that again fortunately. He became more of a distributor and stabilizing influence along with his usual strong defense is a great role for him going forward. Much better than his drives into the teeth of the defense and getting rejected - he doesn't have the floater game that Thompson does, and so he's not going to be successful against teams with length like Utah. Good to see him let others take the shots.
- Nice to have Jarmal back. Really glad he avoided being the big-time goat, because he was a big help. 8 big points in 16 minutes, a crucial steal, and a couple of crucial boards late, along with drawing foul #4 on Poeltl.
- Gregory looked overmatched, but still 2-2 from the field plus 3 boards in 7 minutes ... that's contributing.
At the end of the day, I really felt like we stole that one. Utah looked like the better team most of the game, their offense was getting them very good looks consistently, and their defense forced us to take some tough shots. They seemed to collapse at the end with some uncharacteristic TOs (some completely unforced), and we hit clutch shots. But we found a way, and it was awesome!
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Post by vhalum92 on Feb 5, 2016 10:48:18 GMT -8
When I looked at the box score, going by memory here... I was most surprised that Tinkle and GP II didn't have a free throw attempt.... and we still won.
Honestly, if I was game planning to play us, I'd try to avoid the fouls that GP and Tres seem to drive to the lane looking to get.... they both generate much of there points from that strategy.
Go BEAVS!
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Post by baseba1111 on Feb 5, 2016 11:45:29 GMT -8
Will mostly agree... "- Eubanks showed some nice moves in the post. He got intimidated at times (double-dribble), but he also showed he can set up in the post, make his move, and make hooks over a good 7-footer. Add some strength to those legs this summer, and he could do that at-will next year."
He needs to add bulk/strength for sure and improve in every area... his bball savvy is lacking along with any post game... he made (1) hook, albiet with off hand... he's almost invisible on interior D/hedging a recovering... rebounding is way below average... he is basically over matched vs every Pac12 opponent whether NBA pick or not.
Pts + reb per game/ minutes played is about 0.5! That is way under what I and most would have expected. Athletic YES... but very very raw. At times last night he looked completely lost. And at least three times teammates had to yell multiple times to get his attention to even come to team huddle for on the court instructions. WT was very upset with him several times, once ignoring him completely, on being in the wrong position/defense.
But, Drew is just a symptom... we're winning with basically no interior post game. That complicates our effectiveness overall because can over play and truly not worry that part of the game will beat them. It also makes us easy to defend as the ball rarely moves in and back out, nor is there a lot of re-posting. Take away our 2nd chance points/offensive boards (GPII in particular) we would have zero inside scoring punch.
If you look glass half full... it's kinda amazing we're competing this well with our limited offensive arsenal... we're not in the top half in overall talent, not particular good from the outside 42/43% (low 30's from three), don't draw a lot of free throws (!), not a great rebounding team, no inside go to guy to occupy the D (maybe the least talented group of interior players in the Pac12??), and really are not playing outstanding D. AND, we're in the hunt for a top 6 finish in a good league.
Complain/find faults (I have), but when you step back it's sort of amazing...
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Post by ag87 on Feb 5, 2016 12:45:12 GMT -8
This does not fit in the thread, but I don't want to start a new one. I see ESPN has us at #43 in RPI and then another site (realtimeRPI) has us at #55. I did not know there would be such a big difference. I think it is just math. Anyway, a few more good wins will go a long ways.
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Post by beaverstever on Feb 5, 2016 14:02:55 GMT -8
Will mostly agree... "- Eubanks showed some nice moves in the post. He got intimidated at times (double-dribble), but he also showed he can set up in the post, make his move, and make hooks over a good 7-footer. Add some strength to those legs this summer, and he could do that at-will next year." He needs to add bulk/strength for sure and improve in every area... his bball savvy is lacking along with any post game... he made (1) hook, albiet with off hand... he's almost invisible on interior D/hedging a recovering... rebounding is way below average... he is basically over matched vs every Pac12 opponent whether NBA pick or not. Pts + reb per game/ minutes played is about 0.5! That is way under what I and most would have expected. Athletic YES... but very very raw. At times last night he looked completely lost. And at least three times teammates had to yell multiple times to get his attention to even come to team huddle for on the court instructions. WT was very upset with him several times, once ignoring him completely, on being in the wrong position/defense. But, Drew is just a symptom... we're winning with basically no interior post game. That complicates our effectiveness overall because can over play and truly not worry that part of the game will beat them. It also makes us easy to defend as the ball rarely moves in and back out, nor is there a lot of re-posting. Take away our 2nd chance points/offensive boards (GPII in particular) we would have zero inside scoring punch. If you look glass half full... it's kinda amazing we're competing this well with our limited offensive arsenal... we're not in the top half in overall talent, not particular good from the outside 42/43% (low 30's from three), don't draw a lot of free throws (!), not a great rebounding team, no inside go to guy to occupy the D (maybe the least talented group of interior players in the Pac12??), and really are not playing outstanding D. AND, we're in the hunt for a top 6 finish in a good league. Complain/find faults (I have), but when you step back it's sort of amazing... Well, all those concerns you raised aren't always happening - when we win, our areas of weaknesses have small deltas. We were even last night on rebounds, and a +5 on offensive rebounds. We were +3 on TOs, and shot similar percentages. We played them even pretty much across the board, the biggest delta being the FTs attempts. I disagree that we have no inside scoring punch though beyond GP II, because I consider Thompson's floaters and Tinkle's scoops part of an inside scoring punch. And when GP II drives, people like Reid have sometimes been effective at slipping to the rim for layups as well. But in terms of traditional inside scoring, yes, none of our bigs can effectively score unless their man is drawn by a slash guard ... but I do believe that's changing with Eubanks. He missed a 2nd hook that hit the back of the rim that looked good, just a little long. It's coming. If he can do that 3-4 times a game, it will change a lot of things because they will have to respect it.
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Feb 5, 2016 15:48:09 GMT -8
Will mostly agree... "- Eubanks showed some nice moves in the post. He got intimidated at times (double-dribble), but he also showed he can set up in the post, make his move, and make hooks over a good 7-footer. Add some strength to those legs this summer, and he could do that at-will next year." He needs to add bulk/strength for sure and improve in every area... his bball savvy is lacking along with any post game... he made (1) hook, albiet with off hand... he's almost invisible on interior D/hedging a recovering... rebounding is way below average... he is basically over matched vs every Pac12 opponent whether NBA pick or not. Pts + reb per game/ minutes played is about 0.5! That is way under what I and most would have expected. Athletic YES... but very very raw. At times last night he looked completely lost. And at least three times teammates had to yell multiple times to get his attention to even come to team huddle for on the court instructions. WT was very upset with him several times, once ignoring him completely, on being in the wrong position/defense. But, Drew is just a symptom... we're winning with basically no interior post game. That complicates our effectiveness overall because can over play and truly not worry that part of the game will beat them. It also makes us easy to defend as the ball rarely moves in and back out, nor is there a lot of re-posting. Take away our 2nd chance points/offensive boards (GPII in particular) we would have zero inside scoring punch. If you look glass half full... it's kinda amazing we're competing this well with our limited offensive arsenal... we're not in the top half in overall talent, not particular good from the outside 42/43% (low 30's from three), don't draw a lot of free throws (!), not a great rebounding team, no inside go to guy to occupy the D (maybe the least talented group of interior players in the Pac12??), and really are not playing outstanding D. AND, we're in the hunt for a top 6 finish in a good league. Complain/find faults (I have), but when you step back it's sort of amazing... That stat you pulled out, points plus rebounds per minute... how are all the other post players in the league doing with that benchmark, especially the younger kids?
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Post by jdogge on Feb 5, 2016 17:12:09 GMT -8
"That stat you pulled out, points plus rebounds per minute... how are all the other post players in the league doing with that benchmark, especially the younger kids?" I'm not really concerned with other teams and players. Drew is a starting post for OSU. The "young" card is tiresome. He's a D1 basketball player and needs to start showing improvement. We are 21 games in and he has regressed, especially in his overall effort and focus. If he dunks he is one of the first back down court. Last night he was pulled twice after not even clearing half court on non-break situations. WT was adamant he might not see the floor again (his words were very clear to and past row 10). He did not until the last couple of series of possessions for, I assume, rebounding purposes (Olaf has about 1 board the last 3 games combined). Scoring 6-8 points on (1) offensive move, and some dunks on running the court (and yes his effort seems to dramatically improve transitioning from D to O) is fine... but, as athletic as he is to not get that or more on the boards is all about effort/desire. He's too damn athletic even with limited experience to play like he is right now. He's what we have... for now... hopefully he'll improve more than we've seen since around the FWC. AND... Drew is in no way the only culprit or reason we are 4-6 in league play. PS- Quick browse of other teams leading posts... p+r/min is almost 1.0 or over. But for some that is deceiving as they play 30-50% more minutes and their production stays up... averages about 12-18 ppg/6-10 reb/g over 25-31 min/g "points plus rebounds per minute" is that another ESPN special stat? Seems meaningless because it fails to take into account other intangibles. For example, a shot-blocker who gets a lot of rebounds as a result doesn't get any rebounds per minute when his presence near the basket forces opponents to avoid him. Similarly, it avoids are more relevant stats such as fouls, turnovers, and assists which can affect a game just as dramatically. A player averaging ten point and six rebounds tells only part of the story, especially if he commits ten turnovers and puts the opposition on the line for two shot fouls, four times a game. How do you measure depriving an opponent's play maker the ball a dozen times a game? How do you quantify that? No your points + rebounds is a schoolyard way Re: bush league of trying to win an argument.
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Post by beaverstever on Feb 5, 2016 17:27:09 GMT -8
Not a stat I'm familiar with either, but I'd also say a 0.5 pts+reb/min is pretty decent in general. A player averaging a double-double of 10 pts and 10 rebounds playing a full 40 minutes has a 0.5 ratio, and obviously anybody would take that kind of production. So it seems like his ratio means he's not playing enough (which is due to his foul trouble usually).
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Post by jdogge on Feb 5, 2016 17:38:59 GMT -8
Not a stat I'm familiar with either, but I'd also say a 0.5 pts+reb/min is pretty decent in general. A player averaging a double-double of 10 pts and 10 rebounds playing a full 40 minutes has a 0.5 ratio, and obviously anybody would take that kind of production. So it seems like his ratio means he's not playing enough (which is due to his foul trouble usually). Exactly my point. One must consider other factors, tangible and intangible.
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Post by baseba1111 on Feb 5, 2016 17:46:39 GMT -8
"That stat you pulled out, points plus rebounds per minute... how are all the other post players in the league doing with that benchmark, especially the younger kids?" I'm not really concerned with other teams and players. Drew is a starting post for OSU. The "young" card is tiresome. He's a D1 basketball player and needs to start showing improvement. We are 21 games in and he has regressed, especially in his overall effort and focus. If he dunks he is one of the first back down court. Last night he was pulled twice after not even clearing half court on non-break situations. WT was adamant he might not see the floor again (his words were very clear to and past row 10). He did not until the last couple of series of possessions for, I assume, rebounding purposes (Olaf has about 1 board the last 3 games combined). Scoring 6-8 points on (1) offensive move, and some dunks on running the court (and yes his effort seems to dramatically improve transitioning from D to O) is fine... but, as athletic as he is to not get that or more on the boards is all about effort/desire. He's too damn athletic even with limited experience to play like he is right now. He's what we have... for now... hopefully he'll improve more than we've seen since around the FWC. AND... Drew is in no way the only culprit or reason we are 4-6 in league play. PS- Quick browse of other teams leading posts... p+r/min is almost 1.0 or over. But for some that is deceiving as they play 30-50% more minutes and their production stays up... averages about 12-18 ppg/6-10 reb/g over 25-31 min/g "points plus rebounds per minute" is that another ESPN special stat? Seems meaningless because it fails to take into account other intangibles. For example, a shot-blocker who gets a lot of rebounds as a result doesn't get any rebounds per minute when his presence near the basket forces opponents to avoid him. Similarly, it avoids are more relevant stats such as fouls, turnovers, and assists which can affect a game just as dramatically. A player averaging ten point and six rebounds tells only part of the story, especially if he commits ten turnovers and puts the opposition on the line for two shot fouls, four times a game. How do you measure depriving an opponent's play maker the ball a dozen times a game? How do you quantify that? No your points + rebounds is a schoolyard way Re: bush league of trying to win an argument. Panties... there was no argument... and if there was you were not invited! LOL as your post is "crazy"... and speaking of bush... you can talk intangibles all you'd like... points, rebounds are key stats. I was talking about a specific player... who almost none of which you spout applies. Drew is not a "force" on either end of the court. Other teams do not fear his presence. He does not keep other bigs from scoring... in fact look at our games so far and see how other bigs have fared vs Drew. See Drew on the bench for much of the: Cal game (10 min, 5 pts, 1 reb, 0 st, 0 A, 0 blks); Colorado game (21 min, 2 pts, 1 reb, 0 A, 1 blk, 2 st, 5 fouls); Utah (16 min, 5pts, 3 rebs, 1 A, 0 blks, 0 st); Arizona (15 min, 2 pts, ZERO rebs, 0 blks, 0 A, 1 st); and for most recent 21-9 run where a smaller more efficient defense/rebounding was played. So add in all the other stats you'd like. He's what we have and hopefully he improves at a rate more than he's shown. He offers little in the "intangibles' arena right now. He's had some decent games tucked in, but the point is (and some on here are over the top in praising/making excuses for him) in half our games he is a non-factor.
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Post by baseba1111 on Feb 5, 2016 17:55:54 GMT -8
Not a stat I'm familiar with either, but I'd also say a 0.5 pts+reb/min is pretty decent in general. A player averaging a double-double of 10 pts and 10 rebounds playing a full 40 minutes has a 0.5 ratio, and obviously anybody would take that kind of production. So it seems like his ratio means he's not playing enough (which is due to his foul trouble usually). Not a stat per say... was trying to make a point using concrete data that in equal playing time other teams have a post/post game that is 30-60% better on those two key stats. But, in "creating" stats... as with any data... you can make them "say' what you want. I'll simply stick with "IMHO"... Drew is not what I expected with the supposed hype of fans who saw him play and the 'get' he was supposed to be. He is much more of a non-factor/occasional highlight than I thought we'd get. Which is totally not a Drew issue... like I've said numerous times... he's ours... he's what we have... he's in the rotation... hopefully he improves.
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Post by beaver94 on Feb 5, 2016 18:15:17 GMT -8
Any hype I remember hearing about Drew was more about his athleticism and potential than his ability to come in and be an impact player right away. I'm pretty sure I read multiple places that he was still pretty raw.
I agree that Drew is not a "force" on either end of the court yet. I do wonder like the others that some of his other intangibles are not measured in your stat. It's not something I've paid attention to but could some one like Drew get fewer rebounds while trying to box out the other teams big man freeing up a lane for someone like GPll to get the rebound? Just a thought that not all production shows up in stats.
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Angus
Freshman
Posts: 187
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Post by Angus on Feb 5, 2016 19:07:34 GMT -8
Any hype I remember hearing about Drew was more about his athleticism and potential than his ability to come in and be an impact player right away. I'm pretty sure I read multiple places that he was still pretty raw. I agree that Drew is not a "force" on either end of the court yet. I do wonder like the others that some of his other intangibles are not measured in your stat. It's not something I've paid attention to but could some one like Drew get fewer rebounds while trying to box out the other teams big man freeing up a lane for someone like GPll to get the rebound? Just a thought that not all production shows up in stats. Agree on Drew. All the articles I read about him was that he was sort of late to the game. He wowed analysts with his athleticism and potential but was raw in overall basketball IQ. So what we're seeing now fits his pre-college analysis to a T. You've got to believe that sooner or later, he'll get the finer points of the game figured out, and when he does it is going to be very fun to watch and could make this team a real tourney contender.
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Post by beaverstever on Feb 5, 2016 19:16:16 GMT -8
"points plus rebounds per minute" is that another ESPN special stat? Seems meaningless because it fails to take into account other intangibles. For example, a shot-blocker who gets a lot of rebounds as a result doesn't get any rebounds per minute when his presence near the basket forces opponents to avoid him. Similarly, it avoids are more relevant stats such as fouls, turnovers, and assists which can affect a game just as dramatically. A player averaging ten point and six rebounds tells only part of the story, especially if he commits ten turnovers and puts the opposition on the line for two shot fouls, four times a game. How do you measure depriving an opponent's play maker the ball a dozen times a game? How do you quantify that? No your points + rebounds is a schoolyard way Re: bush league of trying to win an argument. Panties... there was no argument... and if there was you were not invited! LOL as your post is "crazy"... and speaking of bush... you can talk intangibles all you'd like... points, rebounds are key stats. I was talking about a specific player... who almost none of which you spout applies. Drew is not a "force" on either end of the court. Other teams do not fear his presence. He does not keep other bigs from scoring... in fact look at our games so far and see how other bigs have fared vs Drew. See Drew on the bench for much of the: Cal game (10 min, 5 pts, 1 reb, 0 st, 0 A, 0 blks); Colorado game (21 min, 2 pts, 1 reb, 0 A, 1 blk, 2 st, 5 fouls); Utah (16 min, 5pts, 3 rebs, 1 A, 0 blks, 0 st); Arizona (15 min, 2 pts, ZERO rebs, 0 blks, 0 A, 1 st); and for most recent 21-9 run where a smaller more efficient defense/rebounding was played. So add in all the other stats you'd like. He's what we have and hopefully he improves at a rate more than he's shown. He offers little in the "intangibles' arena right now. He's had some decent games tucked in, but the point is (and some on here are over the top in praising/making excuses for him) in half our games he is a non-factor. Unfortunately his intangibles are probably biased negative currently, as his defensive rotation issues and miss-timed shot contesting is helping the opposition's shooting percentage and offensive rebounding. Those will come though.
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Post by beaver94 on Feb 5, 2016 23:23:50 GMT -8
He does like leave his feet way too often and quickly on the defensive end. I no it's not very feasible in PAC-12 play but I'd love to see him play a game where he focuses on his body position and playing good defense and isn't allowed to jump to contest a shot. I'm not sure the best way to teach it but he needs to be way more patient on D. He's often off his feet at the smallest little twitch by the offensive player.
I guess as a fan I/we need to be patient as well. He is still young and learning. If his basketball IQ and ability catches up to his athleticism he could be pretty good.
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