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Post by bhowren on Jan 30, 2016 10:14:25 GMT -8
What I don't get are serious lapses in intensity on the defensive end and going for rebounds. By now, guys should have fundamentals of boxing out, moving their feet on defense, etc... This team seems to come out flat more often than not. I agree that youth probably explains a lot of our woes offensively, but shouldn't be an excuse for the defensive end and rebounding. These seem like lapses in effort more than anything else to me.?.? Not a Basketball coach, and not going to be offended if I am wrong. Just looking to see if others are seeing the same thing.
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Post by treasurevalleybeav on Jan 30, 2016 10:25:03 GMT -8
The intensity is indeed severely lacking on the defensive end in stretches. Plus they do get flat out lazy when it comes to boxing out. They'll try for the boards but all too often they don't bother screening their man out first. Basically the opposite of last year's team. I guess this year's squad thinks they're too good to put forth the same effort. Unless someone else knows why they aren't working as hard this year. Btw, don't play the 'oh they're just young' lame excuse. The upperclassmen are just as guilty.
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Post by jdogge on Jan 30, 2016 11:10:49 GMT -8
The intensity is indeed severely lacking on the defensive end in stretches. Plus they do get flat out lazy when it comes to boxing out. They'll try for the boards but all too often they don't bother screening their man out first. Basically the opposite of last year's team. I guess this year's squad thinks they're too good to put forth the same effort. Unless someone else knows why they aren't working as hard this year. Btw, don't play the 'oh they're just young' lame excuse. The upperclassmen are just as guilty. The upper class-men have always played that way. And the kids are young. They went from being the best in their region or state to being "having potential" at the D1 level. They have to unlearn bad habits that developed by being the best without having to work for it. Remember Kobe Bryant during his first four years with the Lakers -- direct from high school? Played like he was one-on-one at the schoolyard. He had to learn. So do our kids.2018 is the year. Be patient.
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Post by baseba1111 on Jan 30, 2016 12:14:39 GMT -8
"Remember Kobe Bryant during his first four years with the Lakers -- direct from high school?"
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh... HS to NBA not quite the same as HS to lower level D1 team. AND, Kobe was and ELITE HS player. NONE of our recruits can say that. As of NOW, no one on this team is an NBA player (not talking being drafted or on a roster, but a contributor... and GPII is a great kid but has no position in the NBA. But, that's another blaspheme on this site we can discuss sometime), especially at the level Kobe was and even was when entering the league.
That being said, having coached HS sports for 30+ years and sending plenty of kids on to the next levels, there is one guaranteed fact... no matter the talent level a player has you never can predict how they will react when they are no longer the most talented kid on the floor, let alone their own team. Some take the challenge and expand upon their talents, others (and if you go by the shear numbers of so called 4*/5* 'can't miss prospects in all sports) most fall by the wayside.
Last night was really an epiphany/clear realization for me as to just how unschooled in the fundamentals/team play our Men's team is. First, I watched our women, who certainly have above average talent, but for the most part do not have the recruits/player resumes that a Stanford, ND, Tennessee, etc have; yet play TEAM ball. Offensively the ball is passed crisply, moves the defense to both sides of the court, ball goes in and out, solid screens are not only set but utilized correctly, ball fakes are part of both the passing and shooting game. Defensively they communicate, all 5 player rebound, they know how and are willing give up their body to get loose balls/boards, they know how to hedge and recover quickly/decisively, and play HARD for 40 minutes.
After that I went to watch the last 3+ quarters of a girls 5A game... granted an undefeated/#1 ranked team... but, I'm pretty sure they might have had two players around 5"11"/6'... most looked 5'3"-5'7" (did not grab a program), not crazy athletic/no D1 types (couple next to me said one player might have signed DII or DIII??)... but, my point is... they played just like our women's team. AND, the most disconcerting thing? Well, all 8 players that saw most of the minutes before a 8 point halftime lead turned into a 40 point 2nd half rout could use both hands effectively on cross overs, penetrations, and finishes going to the rim. Not wild nonathletic tosses, but effective drives and finishes with both hands. Something most of our Men can't or won't do... in the post or on finishes.
I mentioned this before... YES our older players have limited skills; but if you watch our "best" recruiting class maybe ever none are close to complete players. Some take this as some type of blasphemy or negative attack on our players. Look, I support all of our programs, but I also know what I see in front of me... been watching/coaching various levels for some time and our play is exactly what I expected in terms of talent. I did expect more individual and team improvement by this point, but it has not happened.
We basically have good kids that certainly will develop some, no one knows how much. But, it is very apparent that this class will not lead us "dancing" unless they are joined by at least one other stellar group who has better overall skill than this class currently does. Losing GPII is an issue, but him having an additional year is not the difference maker. These kids need to vastly improve and be joined by equally or more talented players to create not only depth, but a competitive atmosphere.
The disappointing thing to me is not the "physical" outcomes, but HOW we are playing... as individuals and as teammates. There is NO WAY ASU is better than us, let alone 20 points better even at home... I'll say the same for the Stanford, Utah, and UCLA games... there is just no way even with the fundamental flaws I see that we get outplayed by those teams like we did. We have physical flaws, but we have a much bigger issue than that... one that is way harder to "fix". I'm very curious to see our mental makeup/strength today as UA is going to be very very motivated to not only win but send a message.
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Post by touchdownbeavers on Jan 30, 2016 15:16:25 GMT -8
While I respect your (baseba1111) opinions I don't necessarily agree or disagree with them. It is easy to say OSU has unschooled and undisciplined players after either the Arizona St or the Colorado games. I should go back and read whatever it is you posted after the Oregon, USC or even the game in Kansas.
Describing GPII as having "no position in the NBA" means what? An actual position, or just a roster spot? My personal opinion is he compares favorably to what little I saw of KC Jones and how much I did see of Lester Conner (also a JC transfer).
I never make projections on college freshman basketball players and whether or not they can play in the NBA. I don't even care for NBA basketball that much, but in terms of life both during and after college, you might have to offer a few more specifics. I'm specifically speaking of a comparison between Drew Eubanks and Michael Doleac. I watched Doleac several time while he was at Central Catholic. Looked like he was going to be a good college player to me. Eubanks the same thing.
As far as the other freshman go, I'm willing to root and hope.
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billsaab
Freshman
Retired. Live in SW Washington on 73/4 Acres.
Posts: 589
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Post by billsaab on Jan 30, 2016 15:36:59 GMT -8
Interesting discussion. I agree that our Defensive Fundamentals are poor regarding Rebounding, Boxing out, and Passing and cutting on offense. Our Young Guys have some real flaws with ball control . dribbling ,and some shot selection. Think they all try to do to much. Our Seniors need to step up big time. Maybe the Mental make up and Team Chemistry could be part of the problem. Don't like what I am seeing nor do I think what's coming is going to help much. Wish it weren't so.
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Post by treasurevalleybeav on Jan 30, 2016 16:59:56 GMT -8
The intensity is indeed severely lacking on the defensive end in stretches. Plus they do get flat out lazy when it comes to boxing out. They'll try for the boards but all too often they don't bother screening their man out first. Basically the opposite of last year's team. I guess this year's squad thinks they're too good to put forth the same effort. Unless someone else knows why they aren't working as hard this year. Btw, don't play the 'oh they're just young' lame excuse. The upperclassmen are just as guilty. The upper class-men have always played that way. And the kids are young. They went from being the best in their region or state to being "having potential" at the D1 level. They have to unlearn bad habits that developed by being the best without having to work for it. Remember Kobe Bryant during his first four years with the Lakers -- direct from high school? Played like he was one-on-one at the schoolyard. He had to learn. So do our kids.2018 is the year. Be patient. Please clarify.....which returning players (besides Olaf and maybe Reid) are you referring to who didn't play D or rebound? Last year's team was terrific in those areas, weren't they?
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Post by gzrbvr on Jan 30, 2016 19:24:09 GMT -8
What percent are we shooting in 3pt shots? If a couple go in, we can compete tonight.
C'mon Beavs--hang in there.
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Post by beaverbeliever on Jan 30, 2016 19:30:17 GMT -8
Olaf has not played well in conference - until tonight. Had some nice plays on both ends of the court in the first 20 minutes.
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Post by baseba1111 on Jan 30, 2016 20:58:47 GMT -8
While I respect your (baseba1111) opinions I don't necessarily agree or disagree with them. It is easy to say OSU has unschooled and undisciplined players after either the Arizona St or the Colorado games. I should go back and read whatever it is you posted after the Oregon, USC or even the game in Kansas. Describing GPII as having "no position in the NBA" means what? An actual position, or just a roster spot? My personal opinion is he compares favorably to what little I saw of KC Jones and how much I did see of Lester Conner (also a JC transfer). I never make projections on college freshman basketball players and whether or not they can play in the NBA. I don't even care for NBA basketball that much, but in terms of life both during and after college, you might have to offer a few more specifics. I'm specifically speaking of a comparison between Drew Eubanks and Michael Doleac. I watched Doleac several time while he was at Central Catholic. Looked like he was going to be a good college player to me. Eubanks the same thing. As far as the other freshman go, I'm willing to root and hope. TD... GP II is a great kid and getting his due accolades as a college player. But, he's not an NBA guard of either position. He does not have the handle nor can be guard the PG position. And he does not have the offensive game to play SG... not remotely close. I too could really care less about the NBA, but was simply pointing out the fallacy that GP II is that type of player to put a team on his back and carry it. He simply does not have the complete game. As for comparison between Drew and Doleac. There is none. Zero. Other than they both played HS ball in Oregon. Doleac was an accomplished post man. In HS he had post moves and could use both hands. Drew can dunk. He basically tossed up a lefty throw that happened to go in. What Drew may develop into is still up in the air. But, he's not in Doleac's league. As for your other point, I've never wavered in my assessment of this team. If you read my posts you'd know that. And, i take heat for not wearing the "orange goggles". I like WT, i like where we're headed. We've had some good steps forward, but more backward. I was hoping I was wrong as this is a good year to be in the Pac 12. Yes, there is parity, but only because the top teams are down not because everyone else has risen.
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Post by beavadelic on Jan 30, 2016 21:16:57 GMT -8
To the assertion that we need another class of athletes that are even better than this group (not exact words), I believe that next year's group will be. I think that the two big kids are both going to be an upgrade compared to Drew at this point. I say that because Eubanks is still very green in the sport. If he continues improving and learning, he has the athleticism and passion to be a force. In the backcourt, McLaughlin looks like a real stud - long, athletic and a very good shooter and distributor.
Tres and Stevie will keep getting better. You can see it starting to click for Tres, but he needs to keep working on control when he's attacking and any time he is handling the ball. He doesn't have glaring weaknesses there, but hurts himself and us at times with silly turnovers. Overall, he is coming along well, IMO. As for Stevie, it will do wonders for him to get in the weight room. He just needs to get stronger to deal with physical guards. It's cliche to allude to the "coach's kid" deal, but both of these guys play the game like they have been around it their whole lives and with decent maturity. They don't seem afraid at all. For some reason, Stevie's perimeter shot isn't consistently there right now, and that might be a strength thing as well. Players have to work a lot harder to get their shots at this level!
With a highly-touted class coming in this year, and virtually everyone back from a team that shocked everyone last year, it was an absolute set-up. Most of us drank the kool-aid, thinking that better talent coming in and another year of experience for the holdovers would naturally translate into a better team, record and ultimately post-season opportunities (some even figured Big Dance, but I always knew that it would be a long shot) The assumption that everyone will make a quick smooth transition into D-1 ball and the chemistry will automatically be there is tenuous at best. While the cream of the league isn't as good as they were last year, I believe that the league as a whole is much tougher top to bottom this time around. There are a lot of tough outs this year, and nobody is sleeping on us any longer.
I agree that we need to clean some things up in order to improve down the backstretch. I would be pleasantly-surprised to see us go 4-5 in the second half, leaving us at 7-11 (16-13 overall), and sending us into the Pac 12 tourney as a 9th or 10th seed. We would likely open with Cal or USC in the first round, and be very fortunate to win one or two. 18-14 or 17-15 with the strong league RPI this year would probably get us into the NIT, although I don't know if we'd host. Of course, they haven't played those last 9 games, and I honestly believe that we could go anywhere from 2-7 to 5-4, but it will take a consistent intensity that I just haven't seen from this team this year. Fundamentals are an issue for sure, but I really hate weak effort. At least tonight, for the most part the Beavs brought effort for most of the game. The worst thing that could have happened for us was that the 'cats got beat by hole on Thursday night. There was no way that we could catching them in a lazy mindset. I thought that we countered most of their intensity pretty well for the most part tonight, but we have a lot to do before we can beat good teams - even average ones - on the road.
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zzufrevaeb
Sophomore
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hi
Posts: 1,500
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Post by zzufrevaeb on Jan 30, 2016 21:21:26 GMT -8
While I respect your (baseba1111) opinions I don't necessarily agree or disagree with them. It is easy to say OSU has unschooled and undisciplined players after either the Arizona St or the Colorado games. I should go back and read whatever it is you posted after the Oregon, USC or even the game in Kansas. Describing GPII as having "no position in the NBA" means what? An actual position, or just a roster spot? My personal opinion is he compares favorably to what little I saw of KC Jones and how much I did see of Lester Conner (also a JC transfer). I never make projections on college freshman basketball players and whether or not they can play in the NBA. I don't even care for NBA basketball that much, but in terms of life both during and after college, you might have to offer a few more specifics. I'm specifically speaking of a comparison between Drew Eubanks and Michael Doleac. I watched Doleac several time while he was at Central Catholic. Looked like he was going to be a good college player to me. Eubanks the same thing. As far as the other freshman go, I'm willing to root and hope. TD... GP II is a great kid and getting his due accolades as a college player. But, he's not an NBA guard of either position. He does not have the handle nor can be guard the PG position. And he does not have the offensive game to play SG... not remotely close. I too could really care less about the NBA, but was simply pointing out the fallacy that GP II is that type of player to put a team on his back and carry it. He simply does not have the complete game. As for comparison between Drew and Doleac. There is none. Zero. Other than they both played HS ball in Oregon. Doleac was an accomplished post man. In HS he had post moves and could use both hands. Drew can dunk. He basically tossed up a lefty throw that happened to go in. What Drew may develop into is still up in the air. But, he's not in Doleac's league. As for your other point, I've never wavered in my assessment of this team. If you read my posts you'd know that. And, i take heat for not wearing the "orange goggles". I like WT, i like where we're headed. We've had some good steps forward, but more backward. I was hoping I was wrong as this is a good year to be in the Pac 12. Yes, there is parity, but only because the top teams are down not because everyone else has risen. Correct on GP not being that complete player in the NBA.
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Post by kvgeorge on Jan 30, 2016 21:31:31 GMT -8
the sky is falling the sky is falling........that was fircking ARIZONA at home, after an ugly loss, and we hung with them for 30 minutes before they got serious and kicked into another gear. Someone was going to pay for the AZ loss on WEd and we happened to be the patsy and we held our own. The final score does not reflect the balance of the game.
This is a total team/program rebuild and we are only in year two. The improvement in our talent and our overall play is phenomenal especially given that the league has exploded with 8 very good teams.
We are seeing growing pains nothing more. Everything can be fixed. Tonight was a step in the right direction after that debacle on Wed. It takes time to learn how to win both at home and on the road.
I thought the coaching Wed was a problem particularly at the beginning of the game when ST went on a run and we did not call a T.O. Tonight AZ started to roll we stopped play and came out stopped the bleeding. Down 4 at the half, up 2 with 12 to play when the wheels came off.
Maybe the other team had something to do with that and it was not all our failure to preform.
The world is not coming to an end the season is not over and we will win more games. I think the PAC tourney could be really interesting for us and set the stage for a bigger step up nexct year.
Believe.
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Post by jdogge on Jan 30, 2016 21:50:29 GMT -8
The upper class-men have always played that way. And the kids are young. They went from being the best in their region or state to being "having potential" at the D1 level. They have to unlearn bad habits that developed by being the best without having to work for it. Remember Kobe Bryant during his first four years with the Lakers -- direct from high school? Played like he was one-on-one at the schoolyard. He had to learn. So do our kids.2018 is the year. Be patient. Please clarify.....which returning players (besides Olaf and maybe Reid) are you referring to who didn't play D or rebound? Last year's team was terrific in those areas, weren't they? Pretty much all of the holdovers except GPII. Look, Olaf (RPG up from 3.3 to 3.5; PPG down from 7.8 to 6.5); Reid (RPG down from 2.7 to 2.2; PPG down from 8.3 to 4.2); Duvivier (RPB down from 3.0 to 2.4; PPG down from 10.7 to 6.7); Langston-Morris (RPG down from 4.6 to 3.0; PPG down from 9.3 to 6.1). Gomis similarly. You know what else is down for all of these? Minutes played per game. They are losing minutes to the Freshmen. It's not that the returnees are failing, it's that the kids are still learning.
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Post by baseba1111 on Jan 30, 2016 23:29:03 GMT -8
the sky is falling the sky is falling........that was fircking ARIZONA at home, after an ugly loss, and we hung with them for 30 minutes before they got serious and kicked into another gear. Someone was going to pay for the AZ loss on WEd and we happened to be the patsy and we held our own. The final score does not reflect the balance of the game. This is a total team/program rebuild and we are only in year two. The improvement in our talent and our overall play is phenomenal especially given that the league has exploded with 8 very good teams. We are seeing growing pains nothing more. Everything can be fixed. Tonight was a step in the right direction after that debacle on Wed. It takes time to learn how to win both at home and on the road. I thought the coaching Wed was a problem particularly at the beginning of the game when ST went on a run and we did not call a T.O. Tonight AZ started to roll we stopped play and came out stopped the bleeding. Down 4 at the half, up 2 with 12 to play when the wheels came off. Maybe the other team had something to do with that and it was not all our failure to preform. The world is not coming to an end the season is not over and we will win more games. I think the PAC tourney could be really interesting for us and set the stage for a bigger step up nexct year. Believe. George you overreact much? Lol Pretty sure I've not read one post about anything like "the sky is falling". Or anything close to the season being over. But,I will mention that might be the weakest Zona team I've seen since Lute took over a dismal program. And, basically their best player in street clothes and another one of their top 5 also out. So, we are maybe pointing out issues you don't want to hear, but I read no one here tossing in the towel.
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