I can understand shooting slumps/offensive woes, but.....

The intensity is indeed severely lacking on the defensive end in stretches. Plus they do get flat out lazy when it comes to boxing out. They'll try for the boards but all too often they don't bother screening their man out first. Basically the opposite of last year's team. I guess this year's squad thinks they're too good to put forth the same effort. Unless someone else knows why they aren't working as hard this year. Btw, don't play the 'oh they're just young' lame excuse. The upperclassmen are just as guilty.

"Remember Kobe Bryant during his first four years with the Lakers -- direct from high school?"

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh... HS to NBA not quite the same as HS to lower level D1 team. AND, Kobe was and ELITE HS player. NONE of our recruits can say that. As of NOW, no one on this team is an NBA player (not talking being drafted or on a roster, but a contributor... and GPII is a great kid but has no position in the NBA. But, that's another blaspheme on this site we can discuss sometime), especially at the level Kobe was and even was when entering the league.

That being said, having coached HS sports for 30+ years and sending plenty of kids on to the next levels, there is one guaranteed fact... no matter the talent level a player has you never can predict how they will react when they are no longer the most talented kid on the floor, let alone their own team. Some take the challenge and expand upon their talents, others (and if you go by the shear numbers of so called 4*/5* 'can't miss prospects in all sports) most fall by the wayside.

Last night was really an epiphany/clear realization for me as to just how unschooled in the fundamentals/team play our Men's team is. First, I watched our women, who certainly have above average talent, but for the most part do not have the recruits/player resumes that a Stanford, ND, Tennessee, etc have; yet play TEAM ball. Offensively the ball is passed crisply, moves the defense to both sides of the court, ball goes in and out, solid screens are not only set but utilized correctly, ball fakes are part of both the passing and shooting game. Defensively they communicate, all 5 player rebound, they know how and are willing give up their body to get loose balls/boards, they know how to hedge and recover quickly/decisively, and play HARD for 40 minutes.

After that I went to watch the last 3+ quarters of a girls 5A game... granted an undefeated/#1 ranked team... but, I'm pretty sure they might have had two players around 5"11"/6'... most looked 5'3"-5'7" (did not grab a program), not crazy athletic/no D1 types (couple next to me said one player might have signed DII or DIII??)... but, my point is... they played just like our women's team. AND, the most disconcerting thing? Well, all 8 players that saw most of the minutes before a 8 point halftime lead turned into a 40 point 2nd half rout could use both hands effectively on cross overs, penetrations, and finishes going to the rim. Not wild nonathletic tosses, but effective drives and finishes with both hands. Something most of our Men can't or won't do... in the post or on finishes.

I mentioned this before... YES our older players have limited skills; but if you watch our "best" recruiting class maybe ever none are close to complete players. Some take this as some type of blasphemy or negative attack on our players. Look, I support all of our programs, but I also know what I see in front of me... been watching/coaching various levels for some time and our play is exactly what I expected in terms of talent. I did expect more individual and team improvement by this point, but it has not happened.

We basically have good kids that certainly will develop some, no one knows how much. But, it is very apparent that this class will not lead us "dancing" unless they are joined by at least one other stellar group who has better overall skill than this class currently does. Losing GPII is an issue, but him having an additional year is not the difference maker. These kids need to vastly improve and be joined by equally or more talented players to create not only depth, but a competitive atmosphere.

The disappointing thing to me is not the "physical" outcomes, but HOW we are playing... as individuals and as teammates. There is NO WAY ASU is better than us, let alone 20 points better even at home... I'll say the same for the Stanford, Utah, and UCLA games... there is just no way even with the fundamental flaws I see that we get outplayed by those teams like we did. We have physical flaws, but we have a much bigger issue than that... one that is way harder to "fix". I'm very curious to see our mental makeup/strength today as UA is going to be very very motivated to not only win but send a message.

Interesting discussion. I agree that our Defensive Fundamentals are poor regarding Rebounding, Boxing out, and Passing and cutting on offense. Our Young Guys have some real flaws with ball   control . dribbling ,and some shot selection. Think they all try to do to much. Our Seniors need to step up big time. Maybe the Mental make up and Team Chemistry could be part of the problem. Don't like what I am seeing nor do I think what's coming is going to help much. Wish it weren't so.

What percent are we shooting in 3pt shots? If a couple go in, we can compete tonight.

C'mon Beavs--hang in there.

TD... GP II is a great kid and getting his due accolades as a college player. But, he's not an NBA guard of either position. He does not have the handle nor can be guard the PG position. And he does not have the offensive game to play SG... not remotely close. I too could really care less about the NBA, but was simply pointing out the fallacy that GP II is that type of player to put a team on his back and carry it. He simply does not have the complete game.

As for comparison between Drew and Doleac. There is none. Zero. Other than they both played HS ball in Oregon. Doleac was an accomplished post man. In HS he had post moves and could use both hands. Drew can dunk. He basically tossed up a lefty throw that happened to go in. What Drew may develop into is still up in the air. But, he's not in Doleac's league.

As for your other point, I've never wavered in my assessment of this team. If you read my posts you'd know that. And, i take heat for not wearing the "orange goggles". I like WT, i like where we're headed. We've had some good steps forward, but more backward. I was hoping I was wrong as this is a good year to be in the Pac 12. Yes, there is parity, but only because the top teams are down not because everyone else has risen.

Correct on GP not being that complete player in the NBA.

Pretty much all of the holdovers except GPII. Look, Olaf (RPG up from 3.3 to 3.5; PPG down from 7.8 to 6.5); Reid (RPG down from 2.7 to 2.2; PPG down from 8.3 to 4.2); Duvivier (RPB down from 3.0 to 2.4; PPG down from 10.7 to 6.7); Langston-Morris (RPG down from 4.6 to 3.0; PPG down from 9.3 to 6.1). Gomis similarly. You know what else is down for all of these? Minutes played per game. They are losing minutes to the Freshmen. It's not that the returnees are failing, it's that the kids are still learning.