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Post by nabeav on Nov 14, 2017 8:55:41 GMT -8
Also, I keep reading all these posts about how the team is terribly coached and the offense was dysfunctional......then see we shot 4-20 and numerous comments about players missing wide open 3's in a game we lost by 9 points. Say we shoot 30% on 3's...that's two more open looks knocked down.....and instead of shooting 14-23 (60.9%) on free throws, we shoot 17-23 (73.9%).....well that's your 9 point deficit made up right there.
It was a bad shooting night against a team led by a couple of seniors. I agree that the defense still needs work - there seemed to be too much reliance by the guards that Drew would clean up any guy that got by them, and Drew is still out there looking for the highlight on every play.
This team isn't going to challenge for a Pac-12 championship, but I'm not writing them off yet.
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bbfan
Freshman
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Post by bbfan on Nov 14, 2017 9:11:08 GMT -8
Said at start of season this is a NIT team and sticking with that. Defense has to get better though and gotta get something from Jaquori or he has to sit. His defense last night was abysmal
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Post by obf on Nov 14, 2017 9:32:22 GMT -8
Also, I keep reading all these posts about how the team is terribly coached and the offense was dysfunctional......then see we shot 4-20 and numerous comments about players missing wide open 3's in a game we lost by 9 points. Say we shoot 30% on 3's...that's two more open looks knocked down.....and instead of shooting 14-23 (60.9%) on free throws, we shoot 17-23 (73.9%).....well that's your 9 point deficit made up right there. It was a bad shooting night against a team led by a couple of seniors. I agree that the defense still needs work - there seemed to be too much reliance by the guards that Drew would clean up any guy that got by them, and Drew is still out there looking for the highlight on every play. This team isn't going to challenge for a Pac-12 championship, but I'm not writing them off yet. Good take, totally agreed, make a few more shots and that's a win... I lay it mostly at the feet of our upperclassman 4 star, Stevie... 8 points and a plethora of missed open jumpers and FT isn't acceptable from one of our "Big 3"
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Post by obf on Nov 14, 2017 9:37:12 GMT -8
Said at start of season this is a NIT team and sticking with that. Defense has to get better though and gotta get something from Jaquori or he has to sit. His defense last night was abysmal I didn't see every play, but I tought Jacquori played OK last night, certainly better than either Thompson brother... Ethan gets a pass (Freshman playing in his first real D1 game). Stevie was just bad, bricks everywhere on Offense and invisible in every other facet. Jacquori was active, and at least added activity and rebounding even though his own offense wasn't going great, and at least he didn't jack up a bunch of misses... Thompson brothers went a combined 3 for 19, smh... 15%
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Post by nabeav on Nov 14, 2017 10:48:20 GMT -8
I'm not going to kill kids for missing shots. It happens. It's not like they were out there actively trying to miss shots or were thinking about something else - it just didn't work out last night. And I guarantee if they'd passed up open shots, people would be killing them for that too.
I mean, Damian Lillard has had games this year where he's gone 3-16, 4-16 and 4-14.
He's also had games where he's gone 10-12, 12-23, and 10-18.
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Post by beaverinohio on Nov 14, 2017 11:14:51 GMT -8
I'm not going to kill kids for missing shots. It happens. It's not like they were out there actively trying to miss shots or were thinking about something else - it just didn't work out last night. And I guarantee if they'd passed up open shots, people would be killing them for that too. I mean, Damian Lillard has had games this year where he's gone 3-16, 4-16 and 4-14. He's also had games where he's gone 10-12, 12-23, and 10-18. I think it is interesting that much of the wrath of the fans seems to be directed at Stevie and his shooting. Stevie has never been a good shooter. He was barely a career 40% shooter entering the season. Last year I think he had something like 7 games where he shot over 50% and 9 that he shot over 45%. I would have thought a key point of feedback he would have gotten during the draft process was he needs to improve his shooting, so it is a bit disheartening seeing a shooting performance like last night. So he's going to have some bad shooting nights. But he has the physical skills to impact the game in other ways, and one of them should be defense. If he wants to play professionally, he has to become a clamp down defender. Despite the bad shooting, if our big men had followed the scouting report and not left Herndon and Dalton free for so many threes (resulting in 1 less for each), and Stevie clamps down on James and holds him to 4 fewer points then the Beavers win. Now in fairness to Stevie he did have 3 steals, so he is playing defense but he needs to understand that when his shot isn't falling he shouldn't be hoisting up more; he should be trying to impact the game with his defense.
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Post by beaverstever on Nov 14, 2017 11:17:06 GMT -8
Agree with the sentiments that poor shooting nights will happen, and this should not be the norm. We will likely go as our guards go - we aren't built to beat good teams any other way. What's disappointing is that this team needs to still be about to grind out a win at home against a likely 100-150 team. Hopefully they will grow into that, as this test proved we aren't there. It's a good leverage point for coaching by WT - I hope it pans out that way.
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Post by messi on Nov 14, 2017 11:34:20 GMT -8
Agree with the sentiments that poor shooting nights will happen, and this should not be the norm. We will likely go as our guards go - we aren't built to beat good teams any other way. What's disappointing is that this team needs to still be about to grind out a win at home against a likely 100-150 team. Hopefully they will grow into that, as this test proved we aren't there. It's a good leverage point for coaching by WT - I hope it pans out that way. I realize that poor shooting nights happen, just like how bats get cold in baseball throughout a lineup. But what really burns me is the poor defense. Having a team shoot 51% from the field, 45% behind the arc, just makes it all the more difficult on the offensive end to neutralize. Perhaps had the defense been better, and a few of the Cowboys shot didn't fall, then the Thompson brothers probably wouldn't have forced up so much from deep, when it was apparent it wasn't their night from distance.
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bbfan
Freshman
Posts: 204
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Post by bbfan on Nov 14, 2017 12:32:13 GMT -8
We sure do have a patient fan base. Must be nice to be Wayne Tinkle. Huh?? Year 2 was NCAA tournament so not sure your point
On an earlier point the attendance was ****. I realize I am insane driving from Portland and don't expect others to do so but the students could at least have filled the Dam
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2017 12:55:39 GMT -8
I'm sure. I was spoiled by the 80's and have had a hard time watching. I mostly follow the games through the board and twitter so I wouldn't know what D they were playing. Yeah, I probably need therapy. The 'ol conditioning thing keeps me from getting too hopeful. I too was spoiled by the 80's. I watched this game with some hope, but I grew more depressed as the game went along. I am realistic enough, after last season, to not expect us to win every night. But is it too much to look forward to watching a well-coached team put forth good effort? Apparently it is..... Kudos to Drew - he has clearly worked on post moves and free throws. He was getting screened out in the second half and not fighting through, but he was clearly putting out good effort out there. I was not impressed with Jacquori's game tonight. I saw him bring a lot more to the party in games last year, he seemed very passive/tentative/like a freshman this evening. Witness the layup he blew that should have been a throw down......he did rebound well, but his D was quite lacking, and even Mike Montgomery pointed out that it took well into the 2nd half for him to ring up a single foul (which with the refs out there is *really* saying something). Big G was really working hard on the low blocks, our guards should have been rewarding him more for his efforts, but we have a couple guards who love the 3 ball (even on dreadfully "off" nights), or would go in for a weak move near the rim with tall timber all around them (and those guards sure go for the finesse move, not drawing contact and adding points to difficulty of making the shot). Steven Thompson did not look like a coaches kid out there tonight. Ill advised 3s, and he didn't seem to have his head in the game. I ascribe the FT misses to lack of concentration.... The transfer forward was a pleasant surprise, played hard, did some positive things. Kendal Manual should have been starting ahead of any of the 3 starting guards - and should have had even more minutes, since he was one of the few that was effective on D and O. I didn't think our coaching was as "on" as I've seen in the past. It seemed obvious to all that their tall timber was more of an outside threat than a concern in the paint, but that didn't stop us from slacking off to help, leaving them open, and it was obvious they were having trouble with our bigs but we didn't set up for a "pound it inside" or "everything towards the basket" sort of game. I would have rotated in our bigs to just stick like glue to theirs, and would have eschewed the 3 ball (especially tonight of all nights) and attempted to get their bigs in foul trouble or at least played more in the paint (though not bunchball in the paint). I also would have used the last minute or two to refine the "foul for profit" end game - I was surprised when we lost interest with ~40 seconds to go. It is game 2 of the season, right? But the biggest issues that worried me most? 1) Lack of fire. The guys just seemed to be low energy tonight. 2) There are no "extension of the coaches" guards starting right now - I just don't see a lot of vocal, visible leadership out there, no one getting in guys faces, pounding each other, challenging each other, firing each other up, or showing enough understanding of the game to set themselves up right, but also get the team settled and executing 3) Fundamentals - staying in front of the driver on D, not reaching, (my pet peeve) repeated lazy-a** passes that Ralph Miller would have benched someone for after one, pressing at the right time, pulling the ball out at the right time, not taking a shot 10 seconds into the shot clock you could get at any point, understanding shot clock on D, etc etc Again - the better team (at least tonight) won, and I don't begrudge that. I just don't like how we lost. Kudos to Wyoming, they were well coached and played to their talents. And while the refs had several head scratchers, I think it was not super one sided (note we shot a ton of FTs compared to them, at least in the first half - we just needed our guards to make more of them). I hope its mid term week or we find out everyone ate at a sketch restaurant last night......it feels like the talent is there, but we aren't all rowing together yet. Also, they should put more of the WBB out of conference games on TV. Just sayin'...... Go Beavers! i despised Mike Montgomery the coach and love him as a color guy. He doesn't pull any punches about what he sees. He said a few time that OS didn't appear to be running any kind of offense. Just guys wandering around and then putting up emergency shots as the clock ran down. When OS did actually do a give and go that looked like a called play he pointed out that was the first good offensive play in a long stretch. As for the defense he said the beavs were having a hard time keeping their chests in front of the players they were guarding. Fundamentals.
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Post by beaverinohio on Nov 14, 2017 13:05:37 GMT -8
We sure do have a patient fan base. Must be nice to be Wayne Tinkle. Huh?? Year 2 was NCAA tournament so not sure your point
On an earlier point the attendance was ****. I realize I am insane driving from Portland and don't expect others to do so but the students could at least have filled the Dam
Do they still distribute free student tickets or do they have to pay for them?
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Post by obf on Nov 14, 2017 13:47:13 GMT -8
I'm not going to kill kids for missing shots. It happens. It's not like they were out there actively trying to miss shots or were thinking about something else - it just didn't work out last night. And I guarantee if they'd passed up open shots, people would be killing them for that too. I mean, Damian Lillard has had games this year where he's gone 3-16, 4-16 and 4-14. He's also had games where he's gone 10-12, 12-23, and 10-18. And blazer fans, the most kind, gentle forgiving fans in the NBA, are quite upset about it, even calling into question Dame's new vegan diet... Plus Dame brings a lot more than just shooting percentage to the floor... Leadership, assists, and he shoots 90% from the Free throw line regardless! Yeah bad shooting nights happen, but with Dame and most good shooters the good far outweighs the bad... unfortunately for Stevie it's the good night that is the aberration. I am not actually calling out Stevie... I am calling out Wayne for having Stevie on the floor and for letting him shoot so much... If they had just kept running the offense through the low block and screen and rolls and high lows between Tinkle and Eubanks/Big G we score a lot more and draw a bunch more fouls...
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Post by baseba1111 on Nov 14, 2017 13:55:32 GMT -8
I'm not going to kill kids for missing shots. It happens. It's not like they were out there actively trying to miss shots or were thinking about something else - it just didn't work out last night. And I guarantee if they'd passed up open shots, people would be killing them for that too. I mean, Damian Lillard has had games this year where he's gone 3-16, 4-16 and 4-14. He's also had games where he's gone 10-12, 12-23, and 10-18. I think it is interesting that much of the wrath of the fans seems to be directed at Stevie and his shooting. Stevie has never been a good shooter. He was barely a career 40% shooter entering the season. Last year I think he had something like 7 games where he shot over 50% and 9 that he shot over 45%. I would have thought a key point of feedback he would have gotten during the draft process was he needs to improve his shooting, so it is a bit disheartening seeing a shooting performance like last night. So he's going to have some bad shooting nights. But he has the physical skills to impact the game in other ways, and one of them should be defense. If he wants to play professionally, he has to become a clamp down defender. Despite the bad shooting, if our big men had followed the scouting report and not left Herndon and Dalton free for so many threes (resulting in 1 less for each), and Stevie clamps down on James and holds him to 4 fewer points then the Beavers win. Now in fairness to Stevie he did have 3 steals, so he is playing defense but he needs to understand that when his shot isn't falling he shouldn't be hoisting up more; he should be trying to impact the game with his defense. OK... Stevie plays almost no defense... his steals were off the ball tipped by another player/right spot right time. Stevie is about as consistent as it gets... INCONSISTENT throughout. He is a one-on-one freeze the ball guy who, as you stated, never been a great shooter. He is even a worse team defender than he is on the ball. However, he is not alone in that characteristic. Both he and Tres looked foolish last night. Both are a detriment as they can not guard their position. Stevie can't guard physical SG, nor stay in front of most PGs. Tres can't hang with a player like Dalton (Stanford has two of those types alone) who a game extending to the the 3pt line, nor a PF with bulk. Last night Tres had to be switched off to 'inferior' offensive players. JM seems to be a Stevie clone as he is very inconsistent and was basically nonexistent on the offensive end. Drew struggled physically to get post position and get off shots and looks totally uncomfortable playing D outside of 10 feet. Ethan is now playing big boy basketball and will take his lumps. I know all about his "star" rating, publicity/news clippings,. but he is NOT a frosh phenom/one man program changer. My point being... and had been since WT took over and knowing GPII was not here forever... WT has recruited decent pieces that could fit together to make a good team. BUT... we do not play team defense... we do not have the "lunch bucket" mentality! The ONLY way this group competes in the Pac12, and for a postseason tourney is if the play DEFENSE... stifling TEAM DEFENSE. As I said last year, you do not have to have star players to show that type of mentality. Injuries definitely were an issue, but the team mentality was THE issue last year. And, this year nothing has changed. We have the same finesse, all-star game approach. Defense to these guys seems to be a matador "ole' " and attempted poke as they are left behind, take a risk for a break away, fall asleep give up back door plays, watch and give no help side, or leave someone wide open for a crowd pleasing blocked shot. Unfortunately, the same intensity level and focus, the lack thereof, carries over to the offense. I am with Montgomery, I have no idea what the hell OSU is trying to accomplish on most sets. I can see us setting multiple screens at times like we know a pattern/play, but the execution of the screens and read of defender/rub off or the under is so bad it looks like 5th grade "B team" ball. We shot poorly because most were not in the flow/rhythm of an offense. Many were forced, one-on-one, and under pressure. The wide open looks we did get were then 'pressurized' as we seldom get or expect them. No matter the "blame"... if WT can't get these kids to understand and then execute he's not a Pac12 coach. Let's see about LBSt. This film should have lots of teaching moments and I'd expect to see some improvements soon if there is chance for growth this pre-season to ready for Pac12 play.
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Post by beaverinohio on Nov 14, 2017 14:24:04 GMT -8
Baseball1111 -- I agree with pretty much all you said -- especially about defense. Defense is a mindset, and thus far these guys haven't shown that. I don't think too many people were calling Ethan a frosh phenom/one-man program changer though. I think he'll be a good to possibly very good freshman, but he's still a freshman and will be inconsistent. I've never been a huge fan of Stevie. He has his moments but way too inconsistent and hard to love a SG who can't shoot above 40%. I did though see some nice things done by Ethan in first game and through he struggled last night, I've seen more out of him in 2 games to like than I saw out of Stevie for most of his first season.
It is interesting that the other team I cheer for Illinois is going through some of the same things as the Beavs. They won their first game big and then struggled to close out their 2nd game (though they did hold on to win). With both teams, I know there will be some up and downs, I just want to see improved throughout the course of the year. But given that Illinois has a new coach and is younger than OS, I was hoping for the Beavers to be further along.
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