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Post by orangeattack on Sept 4, 2017 14:29:51 GMT -8
Great analysis, Orange. Plus, remember,.... per the DC...we aren't in gap cancellation mode. We don't EVER shoot to cancel a gap....We don't stunt to gaps... We leave gaps wide, freaking open....and there are several. We don't get off blocks quickly enough. Something in the scheme needs to change in ahelluva hurry. We can't "be patient with the process.... " Gap cancellation is not what we are running here with this 3-4 set. Gap cancellation is what we ran under Banker, as well as Bray when St. Dennis was in Corvallis. Gap cancellation means that each one of your 4 down linemen have a single gap they are supposed to shoot through, penetrate to 1.5 yards and then sit down and find the ballcarrier or pursue the quarterback. The linebackers are to scrape down the line of scrimmage and string the play out to the sideline, where they get help from fast safeties. It's an attacking defense that permits you to get after the QB but it is a defensive scheme that is vulnerable to misdirection. Right now we are mostly playing 2-gap responsibility with our DL, which means they are supposed to engage their man while maintaining gap responsibility to either side of his man as a read-and-react key. There are variations of the 3-4 defense that use a 1-gap scheme but we don't seem to be using it.
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Post by gobeavs92 on Sept 4, 2017 14:46:14 GMT -8
Ya know I keep hearing how CGA keeps saying he's "not going to be involved in the defense" or something to that extent. If he wants to save his job he better strongly reconsider that sentiment.
Also curious about: *Craig Evans' status (I don't like thinking about this kind of stuff but I'm grasping at straws here ha ha) *Will the DL wake up and start to play? It's not like these guys are all newbies, in fact they're all returning players! Elu was a beast at times last season. *How our D looks worse than last season, where they actually showed progress from year one?
To be a Beaver fan ugh!
Go Beavs!
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Post by steinlager on Sept 4, 2017 15:14:09 GMT -8
*Will the DL wake up and start to play? It's not like these guys are all newbies, in fact they're all returning players! Elu was a beast at times last season. *How our D looks worse than last season, where they actually showed progress from year one?
To be a Beaver fan ugh!
Go Beavs! [/quote]
Well said. The poor defensive showing is surprising to me after two years learning the system. I was thinking we were on a Colorado trajectory...
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Sept 4, 2017 15:41:39 GMT -8
*Will the DL wake up and start to play? It's not like these guys are all newbies, in fact they're all returning players! Elu was a beast at times last season. *How our D looks worse than last season, where they actually showed progress from year one? To be a Beaver fan ugh! Go Beavs! Well said. The poor defensive showing is surprising to me after two years learning the system. I was thinking we were on a Colorado trajectory...[/quote] Colorado only won 4 games year 3.
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Post by atownbeaver on Sept 5, 2017 7:20:46 GMT -8
Great analysis, Orange. Plus, remember,.... per the DC...we aren't in gap cancellation mode. We don't EVER shoot to cancel a gap....We don't stunt to gaps... We leave gaps wide, freaking open....and there are several. We don't get off blocks quickly enough. Something in the scheme needs to change in ahelluva hurry. We can't "be patient with the process.... " Gap cancellation is not what we are running here with this 3-4 set. Gap cancellation is what we ran under Banker, as well as Bray when St. Dennis was in Corvallis. Gap cancellation means that each one of your 4 down linemen have a single gap they are supposed to shoot through, penetrate to 1.5 yards and then sit down and find the ballcarrier or pursue the quarterback. The linebackers are to scrape down the line of scrimmage and string the play out to the sideline, where they get help from fast safeties. It's an attacking defense that permits you to get after the QB but it is a defensive scheme that is vulnerable to misdirection. Right now we are mostly playing 2-gap responsibility with our DL, which means they are supposed to engage their man while maintaining gap responsibility to either side of his man as a read-and-react key. There are variations of the 3-4 defense that use a 1-gap scheme but we don't seem to be using it. Great post OA. There are one gap and two gap 3-4 defenses as a base concept. I do believe we are trying (and failing) at being a two gap 3-4 team. A two gap 3-4 is your bottom picture. The DL is responsibe for controlling their assigned gaps. A one gap scheme, is as the name implies. DL are responsible for a single gap and the LB core covers the remaining. all based on reads and the play call. Here is the bottom line with our defensive issue. As you can clearly see on the bottom picture, if the NT and a minimum of one other DEs cannot consistently occupy two defenders while not giving up ground, you are toast. You will have OL at the second level all day long, the ILBs will not be able to flow to the play like they are suppose to and make the tackle. A 3-4 is working properly when your ILBs are your top two tacklers. our top tackler is Jalen Moore, one of our Safeties. 3 of our top 5 tacklers are DBs. We are giving up rushing yards at just a hair under 5 yards a carry. on second down... we have given up an astounding 7.1 yards per carry... oi vey.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2017 8:12:57 GMT -8
Gap cancellation is not what we are running here with this 3-4 set. Gap cancellation is what we ran under Banker, as well as Bray when St. Dennis was in Corvallis. Gap cancellation means that each one of your 4 down linemen have a single gap they are supposed to shoot through, penetrate to 1.5 yards and then sit down and find the ballcarrier or pursue the quarterback. The linebackers are to scrape down the line of scrimmage and string the play out to the sideline, where they get help from fast safeties. It's an attacking defense that permits you to get after the QB but it is a defensive scheme that is vulnerable to misdirection. Right now we are mostly playing 2-gap responsibility with our DL, which means they are supposed to engage their man while maintaining gap responsibility to either side of his man as a read-and-react key. There are variations of the 3-4 defense that use a 1-gap scheme but we don't seem to be using it. Great post OA. There are one gap and two gap 3-4 defenses as a base concept. I do believe we are trying (and failing) at being a two gap 3-4 team. A two gap 3-4 is your bottom picture. The DL is responsibe for controlling their assigned gaps. A one gap scheme, is as the name implies. DL are responsible for a single gap and the LB core covers the remaining. all based on reads and the play call. Here is the bottom line with our defensive issue. As you can clearly see on the bottom picture, if the NT and a minimum of one other DEs cannot consistently occupy two defenders while not giving up ground, you are toast. You will have OL at the second level all day long, the ILBs will not be able to flow to the play like they are suppose to and make the tackle. A 3-4 is working properly when your ILBs are your top two tacklers. our top tackler is Jalen Moore, one of our Safeties. 3 of our top 5 tacklers are DBs. We are giving up rushing yards at just a hair under 5 yards a carry. on second down... we have given up an astounding 7.1 yards per carry... oi vey. lots of meat on that bone. No confusion about where the improvement needs to come from. Forget this turnovers and sacks nonsense. Improve the rushing D and improve the chances of winning this week. Wait, beating Minnesota? How is that possible with a half-fired coach?
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Post by orangeattack on Sept 5, 2017 9:05:44 GMT -8
Great post OA. There are one gap and two gap 3-4 defenses as a base concept. I do believe we are trying (and failing) at being a two gap 3-4 team. A two gap 3-4 is your bottom picture. The DL is responsibe for controlling their assigned gaps. A one gap scheme, is as the name implies. DL are responsible for a single gap and the LB core covers the remaining. all based on reads and the play call. Here is the bottom line with our defensive issue. As you can clearly see on the bottom picture, if the NT and a minimum of one other DEs cannot consistently occupy two defenders while not giving up ground, you are toast. You will have OL at the second level all day long, the ILBs will not be able to flow to the play like they are suppose to and make the tackle. A 3-4 is working properly when your ILBs are your top two tacklers. our top tackler is Jalen Moore, one of our Safeties. 3 of our top 5 tacklers are DBs. We are giving up rushing yards at just a hair under 5 yards a carry. on second down... we have given up an astounding 7.1 yards per carry... oi vey. lots of meat on that bone. No confusion about where the improvement needs to come from. Forget this turnovers and sacks nonsense. Improve the rushing D and improve the chances of winning this week. Wait, beating Minnesota? How is that possible with a half-fired coach? stay on topic, Cheese. Bleeding through a rant about how we should be thinking about cutting our losses soon into this thread about scheme does nothing to further a decent discussion here.
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Post by justdamwin on Sept 5, 2017 9:56:25 GMT -8
Gap cancellation is not what we are running here with this 3-4 set. Gap cancellation is what we ran under Banker, as well as Bray when St. Dennis was in Corvallis. Gap cancellation means that each one of your 4 down linemen have a single gap they are supposed to shoot through, penetrate to 1.5 yards and then sit down and find the ballcarrier or pursue the quarterback. The linebackers are to scrape down the line of scrimmage and string the play out to the sideline, where they get help from fast safeties. It's an attacking defense that permits you to get after the QB but it is a defensive scheme that is vulnerable to misdirection. Right now we are mostly playing 2-gap responsibility with our DL, which means they are supposed to engage their man while maintaining gap responsibility to either side of his man as a read-and-react key. There are variations of the 3-4 defense that use a 1-gap scheme but we don't seem to be using it. Great post OA. There are one gap and two gap 3-4 defenses as a base concept. I do believe we are trying (and failing) at being a two gap 3-4 team. A two gap 3-4 is your bottom picture. The DL is responsibe for controlling their assigned gaps. A one gap scheme, is as the name implies. DL are responsible for a single gap and the LB core covers the remaining. all based on reads and the play call. Here is the bottom line with our defensive issue. As you can clearly see on the bottom picture, if the NT and a minimum of one other DEs cannot consistently occupy two defenders while not giving up ground, you are toast. You will have OL at the second level all day long, the ILBs will not be able to flow to the play like they are suppose to and make the tackle. A 3-4 is working properly when your ILBs are your top two tacklers. our top tackler is Jalen Moore, one of our Safeties. 3 of our top 5 tacklers are DBs. We are giving up rushing yards at just a hair under 5 yards a carry. on second down... we have given up an astounding 7.1 yards per carry... oi vey. A single gap 3-4 is a blitz package . Sending a fourth guy. Many variations how to do it...which is why the 3-4 has some validity, variation. We seem to not want to make the 3-4 a valid defense.
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Post by atownbeaver on Sept 5, 2017 10:03:13 GMT -8
A single gap 3-4 is a blitz package . Sending a fourth guy. Many variations how to do it...which is why the 3-4 has some validity, variation. We seem to not want to make the 3-4 a valid defense. Exactly... thank you for going next step here. a 3-4 one gap is pretty popular in the NFL, because of the ability to pre snap mask a blitz that could come from any gap or any of 4 LBs. I have not seen us, outside a handful of plays, demonstrate an aggressive blitzing philosophy... and I have not seen us, in any way shape or form, control the LOS in a two gap manner. If you want to be committed to the 3-4 and the DL ain't getting it done. it is time to greatly dial up the blitzing.
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Post by ochobeavo on Sept 5, 2017 10:18:54 GMT -8
A single gap 3-4 is a blitz package . Sending a fourth guy. Many variations how to do it...which is why the 3-4 has some validity, variation. We seem to not want to make the 3-4 a valid defense. Exactly... thank you for going next step here. a 3-4 one gap is pretty popular in the NFL, because of the ability to pre snap mask a blitz that could come from any gap or any of 4 LBs. I have not seen us, outside a handful of plays, demonstrate an aggressive blitzing philosophy... and I have not seen us, in any way shape or form, control the LOS in a two gap manner. If you want to be committed to the 3-4 and the DL ain't getting it done. it is time to greatly dial up the blitzing. This is good stuff. and glad to see some solid analysis vs "INSERT" sucks (and I'm just as guilty when it comes to telling INSERT that he sucks). And Atown - this is exactly what I was getting at early when I brought up blitzing. When you aren't getting any push from your line, don't you send someone? And again, I'm 100% armchair and it's been a long while since I've been an Xbox Madden defensive coordinator - so wasn't sure if I was just missing it or we just are playing straight up most of the time.
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Post by baseba1111 on Sept 5, 2017 10:30:23 GMT -8
A single gap 3-4 is a blitz package . Sending a fourth guy. Many variations how to do it...which is why the 3-4 has some validity, variation. We seem to not want to make the 3-4 a valid defense. Exactly... thank you for going next step here. a 3-4 one gap is pretty popular in the NFL, because of the ability to pre snap mask a blitz that could come from any gap or any of 4 LBs. I have not seen us, outside a handful of plays, demonstrate an aggressive blitzing philosophy... and I have not seen us, in any way shape or form, control the LOS in a two gap manner. If you want to be committed to the 3-4 and the DL ain't getting it done. it is time to greatly dial up the blitzing. Maybe mentioned, but this thread is getting involved so excuse me if it has. But, the cornerstone of a 3-4 and a 1-gap blitz package is container and outside leverage. No matter the stunt package the key component (not to forgot pre-snap "confusion" to the blocking scheme)is to contain and force the ball to the pressure. Pressure from any point on the field is not effective if there are avenues of escape. This defense has no sense of contain and is often times out-manned at the snap by simple alignment. Execution is almost impossible as our players are at a physical disadvantage from the very start. Our coaches either have no clue on 3-4 alignments vs various sets or our players are not getting the concepts. Couple that with coverages exacerbating the issues when they do not "match" what is happening up front. We can get into specific details and terminology, but I do not know what Clune is using/teaching. The point is players are being put in unwinnable situations. In many cases it looks like 8-man football on the D side... beat one guy and it 7+ yards as no else is in a gap help position and it seems there is never any contain until a DB finds the ball. The experiment is over with this staff and the 3-4... they are fooling anyone... we do not have the personnel (or staff?) to implement... And by the way... for those that coach... implementing a 4-3 (even a basic "okie bear" 5-2) is not rocket science. The nickle and dime coverages are very similar to what we run now almost 80% of the time. Defense is about being proactive not reactive, keeping it as simple as you can to allow aggressiveness without a bunch of thought. We don't seem to play hard. Some say it's that we're out of shape still. I can in no way believe that. I'm not a fan of GA, but if our kids are not in shape then he should be fired today. I think it is more "paralysis by analysis". I guess the good news is we can't keep giving up 520 and 45/game... can we?
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Post by atownbeaver on Sept 5, 2017 11:49:09 GMT -8
Exactly... thank you for going next step here. a 3-4 one gap is pretty popular in the NFL, because of the ability to pre snap mask a blitz that could come from any gap or any of 4 LBs. I have not seen us, outside a handful of plays, demonstrate an aggressive blitzing philosophy... and I have not seen us, in any way shape or form, control the LOS in a two gap manner. If you want to be committed to the 3-4 and the DL ain't getting it done. it is time to greatly dial up the blitzing. Maybe mentioned, but this thread is getting involved so excuse me if it has. But, the cornerstone of a 3-4 and a 1-gap blitz package is container and outside leverage. No matter the stunt package the key component (not to forgot pre-snap "confusion" to the blocking scheme)is to contain and force the ball to the pressure. Pressure from any point on the field is not effective if there are avenues of escape. This defense has no sense of contain and is often times out-manned at the snap by simple alignment. Execution is almost impossible as our players are at a physical disadvantage from the very start. Our coaches either have no clue on 3-4 alignments vs various sets or our players are not getting the concepts. Couple that with coverages exacerbating the issues when they do not "match" what is happening up front. Basically, yeah. the cornerstone of a 3-4 one gap is that every front 7 player has a single gap responsibility. WHOSE responsibility depends on the exact call and situation, but the general idea is to A. defeat a block and fill your gap to make a play OR B. force the play in the direction you have numbers. In a way, a 3-4 one gap is kinda, sort of, well basically, what we were doing before with Banker... just with 3 DL and a walked up OLB instead of 4 DL. I feel I know football better than the average bear, but I do not claim to be a wizard. It is a good thing you do not have to be a wizard to see the major flaw: our DL is effectively blocked one on one. We need to stop trying to play gap assignment and just start attacking spots. Risk/reward for sure... but we are getting our asses kicked anyways. If we flip it around, from offensive perspective from defensive perspective... what is the OL attempting to do against these fronts? Offense looks to create a gap while the defense looks to cancel one (or fill one, or attack one...or whatever). Basically on every snap, most OCs know that a decent center can handle our NT. and decent tackle can handle our DE, and that lets the guard out to get a head of steam into the second level. the NT lost his A assignment, the DE lost his B assignment and the RB now has an escort and makes a cut off the second level block. We are failing as fundamentally as it gets here. If we know our guys cannot be counted on to control their assignment and make two gap plays, we go back to single gap assignments, and mask our intent with scheme and blitz to confuse the OL and give much needed advantage back our direction. Even if we stay at a 3 DL front, all we do is ask that they penetrate a single gap... that in itself changes what we are asking them to do significantly. it is easier to assault a single spot with intent to penetrate, than it is to hold a line and maintain the ability to get off a block in either direction to make a play.
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Post by orangeattack on Sept 5, 2017 12:18:28 GMT -8
Exactly... thank you for going next step here. a 3-4 one gap is pretty popular in the NFL, because of the ability to pre snap mask a blitz that could come from any gap or any of 4 LBs. I have not seen us, outside a handful of plays, demonstrate an aggressive blitzing philosophy... and I have not seen us, in any way shape or form, control the LOS in a two gap manner. If you want to be committed to the 3-4 and the DL ain't getting it done. it is time to greatly dial up the blitzing. Maybe mentioned, but this thread is getting involved so excuse me if it has. But, the cornerstone of a 3-4 and a 1-gap blitz package is container and outside leverage. No matter the stunt package the key component (not to forgot pre-snap "confusion" to the blocking scheme)is to contain and force the ball to the pressure. Pressure from any point on the field is not effective if there are avenues of escape. This defense has no sense of contain and is often times out-manned at the snap by simple alignment. Execution is almost impossible as our players are at a physical disadvantage from the very start. Our coaches either have no clue on 3-4 alignments vs various sets or our players are not getting the concepts. Couple that with coverages exacerbating the issues when they do not "match" what is happening up front. We can get into specific details and terminology, but I do not know what Clune is using/teaching. The point is players are being put in unwinnable situations. In many cases it looks like 8-man football on the D side... beat one guy and it 7+ yards as no else is in a gap help position and it seems there is never any contain until a DB finds the ball. The experiment is over with this staff and the 3-4... they are fooling anyone... we do not have the personnel (or staff?) to implement... And by the way... for those that coach... implementing a 4-3 (even a basic "okie bear" 5-2) is not rocket science. The nickle and dime coverages are very similar to what we run now almost 80% of the time. Defense is about being proactive not reactive, keeping it as simple as you can to allow aggressiveness without a bunch of thought. We don't seem to play hard. Some say it's that we're out of shape still. I can in no way believe that. I'm not a fan of GA, but if our kids are not in shape then he should be fired today. I think it is more "paralysis by analysis". I guess the good news is we can't keep giving up 520 and 45/game... can we? this is an interesting bit of analysis. All along I've been operating under the assumption that the DL is physically getting beaten at the point of attack, and maybe that's not entirely true. I do feel like overall we lack physicality with our inside linebackers, I feel like there is a personnel issue there. We have a couple of undersized 4-3 mikes playing ILB if you ask me.. I want to see us playing an ILB that can take a guard man up and defeat the block. We need 6-3, 250+ pound guys in the middle, not 6-0 225 guys who are getting swallowed up. If Hungalu had a running mate that size. Hughes-Murray should be playing strong safety, not ILB in a 3-4 defense.
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