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Post by Werebeaver on Dec 15, 2016 11:01:22 GMT -8
I'd be interested to hear folks' ideas.
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Post by baseba1111 on Dec 15, 2016 16:21:06 GMT -8
Not a grappling expert, but...
-get better wrestlers
-get more better wrestlers for depth
There are technicians and there are "beasts"... the best are both. We need those!
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Post by blackbug on Dec 15, 2016 20:01:07 GMT -8
It has been a long time since a team outside of the power wrestling areas (mostly mid west) has legitimately competed for a national title. Competing for a national title being outside the recruiting hotbeds is a riddle no one has solved recently. Arizona State may be the template soon.
I have reservations saying it, but the first step for us would be getting a new coaching staff if we wanted to consistently finish in the top 10 and really compete for a national title at times. The current staff has shown to be a good staff and will occasionally get us to be a top 10 team. We could definitely do a lot worse with a different staff. But, the question was how can we compete more nationally. The current staff has shown us what their limitations are.
Now should we get a new coaching staff? That to me is a different question. The answer is probably no as we have had success and will have more success in the future. We have been the best team in the west for the last 10 years in my opinion.
This current team would be really close to a top 10 team without injury issues. Dhesi would have been a strong candidate to be a finalist, but now Crawford is filling in and Crawford had a chance to be an All American at 197, but I think there is almost no chance for him at heavy weight. Griego is the same as Crawford, any chance for All American is drastically reduced because he had to move up to 197. Coleman has a chance to be good at 184 (probaby would be better at 174), but has been thrust into the lineup early due to need with everyone moving up. Dobler has not met his potential at 174 yet and again is another wrestling that may have been more effective at a lower weight. They have not been able to find anyone at 165 to compete very well at that weight. Rodriguez is starting slow at 157 again and so far is having another inconsistent year. Delgado at 149 cannot seem to find the last bit of all around skill to compete at the level needed to find himself on the podium at nationals. Palmer, so far appears to be more suited to 133 than 141 even though I know getting to 133 was very tough for him. So he is another wrestling that appears to me to not be at his best weight. Devan Turner at 133 has talent, but is not quite ready yet for college wrestling as a true freshman. Calkins at 125 is competitive, but with Bresser red shirting we do not have our best wrestler at this weight. Bresser right now is one of the few wrestlers on the roster than knows how to pull out victories consistently against tough wrestlers, a skill that is really apparent when you compare him to Calkins. Bresser had a strong chance to finish top 8 this year. There is a lot of variables here that I do not know and some that I guess at.
This year has been strange as injuries and lack of depth has forced several changes. It is kind of like the guy trying to plug all the leaks in a dam with his fingers and finally running out of fingers, but the finger approach to plugging the hole does not work well to begin with (i.e. moving wrestlers around looks to have affected their ability to perform).
So we came into the season with Bresser, Palmer, Delgado (if he improved), Griego, Crawford, and Dhesi all having chances to be All Americans, but now basically none of them have chances due to performance, injury, red shirting, and weight changes. This certainly can change, but this is the best I can describe my evaluation so far. I am sure others have more information. Let me know what I may have got wrong or right.
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Post by Werebeaver on Dec 15, 2016 20:56:30 GMT -8
It has been a long time since a team outside of the power wrestling areas (mostly mid west) has legitimately competed for a national title. Competing for a national title being outside the recruiting hotbeds is a riddle no one has solved recently. Arizona State may be the template soon. I have reservations saying it, but the first step for us would be getting a new coaching staff if we wanted to consistently finish in the top 10 and really compete for a national title at times. The current staff has shown to be a good staff and will occasionally get us to be a top 10 team. We could definitely do a lot worse with a different staff. But, the question was how can we compete more nationally. The current staff has shown us what their limitations are. Now should we get a new coaching staff? That to me is a different question. The answer is probably no as we have had success and will have more success in the future. We have been the best team in the west for the last 10 years in my opinion. This current team would be really close to a top 10 team without injury issues. Dhesi would have been a strong candidate to be a finalist, but now Crawford is filling in and Crawford had a chance to be an All American at 197, but I think there is almost no chance for him at heavy weight. Griego is the same as Crawford, any chance for All American is drastically reduced because he had to move up to 197. Coleman has a chance to be good at 184 (probaby would be better at 174), but has been thrust into the lineup early due to need with everyone moving up. Dobler has not met his potential at 174 yet and again is another wrestling that may have been more effective at a lower weight. They have not been able to find anyone at 165 to compete very well at that weight. Rodriguez is starting slow at 157 again and so far is having another inconsistent year. Delgado at 149 cannot seem to find the last bit of all around skill to compete at the level needed to find himself on the podium at nationals. Palmer, so far appears to be more suited to 133 than 141 even though I know getting to 133 was very tough for him. So he is another wrestling that appears to me to not be at his best weight. Devan Turner at 133 has talent, but is not quite ready yet for college wrestling as a true freshman. Calkins at 125 is competitive, but with Bresser red shirting we do not have our best wrestler at this weight. Bresser right now is one of the few wrestlers on the roster than knows how to pull out victories consistently against tough wrestlers, a skill that is really apparent when you compare him to Calkins. Bresser had a strong chance to finish top 8 this year. There is a lot of variables here that I do not know and some that I guess at. This year has been strange as injuries and lack of depth has forced several changes. It is kind of like the guy trying to plug all the leaks in a dam with his fingers and finally running out of fingers, but the finger approach to plugging the hole does not work well to begin with (i.e. moving wrestlers around looks to have affected their ability to perform). So we came into the season with Bresser, Palmer, Delgado (if he improved), Griego, Crawford, and Dhesi all having chances to be All Americans, but now basically none of them have chances due to performance, injury, red shirting, and weight changes. This certainly can change, but this is the best I can describe my evaluation so far. I am sure others have more information. Let me know what I may have got wrong or right. I agree with you. Zalesky has been at OSU 10 seasons. The template has been set. Win the conference and underperform at Nationals. I don't see OSU having the guts to pull the trigger on a coaching change, but with Zalesky as coach I don't see our National results improving. Satisfied to beat our regional rivals (Stanford, ASU, Boise) while taking our lumps against Eastern and Midwestern competition and accepting that we can't recruit and compete against them. I remember people talking that way about the futility of competing in baseball against the National Powers in the South and Southwest. Oregon State Wrestling needs a Pat Casey. |
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Post by Werebeaver on Dec 16, 2016 8:11:17 GMT -8
It has been a long time since a team outside of the power wrestling areas (mostly mid west) has legitimately competed for a national title. Competing for a national title being outside the recruiting hotbeds is a riddle no one has solved recently. Arizona State may be the template soon. I have reservations saying it, but the first step for us would be getting a new coaching staff if we wanted to consistently finish in the top 10 and really compete for a national title at times. The current staff has shown to be a good staff and will occasionally get us to be a top 10 team. We could definitely do a lot worse with a different staff. But, the question was how can we compete more nationally. The current staff has shown us what their limitations are. Now should we get a new coaching staff? That to me is a different question. The answer is probably no as we have had success and will have more success in the future. We have been the best team in the west for the last 10 years in my opinion. This current team would be really close to a top 10 team without injury issues. Dhesi would have been a strong candidate to be a finalist, but now Crawford is filling in and Crawford had a chance to be an All American at 197, but I think there is almost no chance for him at heavy weight. Griego is the same as Crawford, any chance for All American is drastically reduced because he had to move up to 197. Coleman has a chance to be good at 184 (probaby would be better at 174), but has been thrust into the lineup early due to need with everyone moving up. Dobler has not met his potential at 174 yet and again is another wrestling that may have been more effective at a lower weight. They have not been able to find anyone at 165 to compete very well at that weight. Rodriguez is starting slow at 157 again and so far is having another inconsistent year. Delgado at 149 cannot seem to find the last bit of all around skill to compete at the level needed to find himself on the podium at nationals. Palmer, so far appears to be more suited to 133 than 141 even though I know getting to 133 was very tough for him. So he is another wrestling that appears to me to not be at his best weight. Devan Turner at 133 has talent, but is not quite ready yet for college wrestling as a true freshman. Calkins at 125 is competitive, but with Bresser red shirting we do not have our best wrestler at this weight. Bresser right now is one of the few wrestlers on the roster than knows how to pull out victories consistently against tough wrestlers, a skill that is really apparent when you compare him to Calkins. Bresser had a strong chance to finish top 8 this year. There is a lot of variables here that I do not know and some that I guess at. This year has been strange as injuries and lack of depth has forced several changes. It is kind of like the guy trying to plug all the leaks in a dam with his fingers and finally running out of fingers, but the finger approach to plugging the hole does not work well to begin with (i.e. moving wrestlers around looks to have affected their ability to perform). So we came into the season with Bresser, Palmer, Delgado (if he improved), Griego, Crawford, and Dhesi all having chances to be All Americans, but now basically none of them have chances due to performance, injury, red shirting, and weight changes. This certainly can change, but this is the best I can describe my evaluation so far. I am sure others have more information. Let me know what I may have got wrong or right. I agree with you. Zalesky has been at OSU 10 seasons. The template has been set. Win the conference and underperform at Nationals. I don't see OSU having the guts to pull the trigger on a coaching change, but with Zalesky as coach I don't see our National results improving. Satisfied to beat our regional rivals (Stanford, ASU, Boise) while taking our lumps against Eastern and Midwestern competition and accepting that we can't recruit and compete against them. I remember people talking that way about the futility of competing in baseball against the National Powers in the South and Southwest. Oregon State Wrestling needs a Pat Casey. Naive question. If Dhesi's absence at HWT is causing multiple moves up and lessening the effectiveness of multiple wrestlers, why don't we just forfeit HWT and let all those affected wrestlers compete at their best weight? I know that's giving the other team a free 6 points but isn't it better to give individuals their best chance at success? |
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Post by blackbug on Dec 16, 2016 10:14:40 GMT -8
I agree with you. Zalesky has been at OSU 10 seasons. The template has been set. Win the conference and underperform at Nationals. I don't see OSU having the guts to pull the trigger on a coaching change, but with Zalesky as coach I don't see our National results improving. Satisfied to beat our regional rivals (Stanford, ASU, Boise) while taking our lumps against Eastern and Midwestern competition and accepting that we can't recruit and compete against them. I remember people talking that way about the futility of competing in baseball against the National Powers in the South and Southwest. Oregon State Wrestling needs a Pat Casey. Naive question. If Dhesi's absence at HWT is causing multiple moves up and lessening the effectiveness of multiple wrestlers, why don't we just forfeit HWT and let all those affected wrestlers compete at their best weight? I know that's giving the other team a free 6 points but isn't it better to give individuals their best chance at success? My answer is, it is very complicated. I think that Crawford and Griego were already large at their old weights so the thought was they would be able to move up effectively. So far this appears to not be totally true. There may have even been more issues than what I know in them not being able to make weight at their old weights. I think the movement in weights makes the team strongest in all weights. Also, I am sure some of the weight movements were thought to be positive as many wrestlers perform better when not cutting so much weight. The evaluation is pretty early the jury is still out on whether the movements will end up being a positive or negative, but so far they generally appear to be negative. I would agree with the assessment that individual success may have been sacrificed for team success. |
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Post by ochobeavo on Dec 16, 2016 12:47:33 GMT -8
Oh man where to begin...
Style - we are just flat out hard to watch. No one is attacking. Look at last nights dual vs Utah Valley. I think we were called for about 12
Stalls to UVUs 2. Why? UVU guys were in constant motion, pressing the action, looking for something...I'm still trying to figure out what we are waiting for.
Middle weights - still a big black hole. We need an influx of talent there ASAP, which leads me to...
Recruiting - lot of great kids have left the state or are planning to. Berger from Crook County is ranked 5th in the nation at 157 for Nebraska and is 16-0 as a sophomore. Purinton from Banks has cracked Nebraska's line up as a RS FR at 149. Sam Colbray chose Iowa State, Van Anrooy is heading to Michigan, Wittlake is headed to Penn State. Haydn Maley from Roseburg is heading to Stanford. Was told we just weren't interested. Ouch. Wittlake I get... But the lack of big name recruits leads me to...
PAC-12- ASU has run circles around us these last couple recruiting cycles and in the level of coaches/volunteers they have working in the room.. I don't think we have the horses to pull off another title. I'm not sure we can even take 2nd. Even if we had Dhesi and Bresser it would have been tough.
As far as the line up goes - correct, Crawford was having a heck of a time making 197 as it was. Missed weight a couple weeks ago. So we shuffle the line up around and move the weak link from heavy to 174. And Coleman at 74, he's a gamer just not at that level we need yet. Crawford will hold his own against a lot of kids at heavy but he's obviously not Dhesi. (He does seem to be one of the few that got the memo that you need to shoot to score).
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Post by osbrawler on Dec 16, 2016 17:42:36 GMT -8
Most of its been said, but have to do a better job of recruiting. Losing too much D1 level talent to out of state teams right now. When you lose a guy, don't just say, he wasn't a good fit or we weren't really interested in him anyways, that's a lame excuse. Need to be in the hunt for a nationally ranked kid from California, The Midwest or East Coast from time to time, and more importantly land them. Once you get them on campus...have to keep them eligible, and ensure they keep improving. If you spend a lot of time, resources to land a kid and he bolts, doesn't pan out or is an academic liability that leaves a big hole in your line up. There is precious little room for a mistake in recruiting when you only have 9.9 scholies. How are our recruits from Clackamas doing? Not a lot of them make it on to campus or if they do we can't keep them because of grades or school work. Austin Moorhead has been the only one to get in, and make it through a senior season so far. The rest haven't made it to campus or have bolted soon after getting here, see Odighizuwa. He was in the program for 1 or 2 quarters, and we could have used him at 197 this year.
Have to build up the club team, NW Regional Wrestling or Orange Crush. From kids all the way up to senior level talent. Those guys spar with the college age kids and steel sharpens steel. Of course that takes $ to keep them around.
Coaching ranks in general. For the most part the nucleus has been together for a long time: Z, Steiner, Roberts. Steiner has moved on, as he should he was ready to be a head coach. We replaced him with Meeks. Nothing against Taylor, but questioning is this the best we could have done? Taylor has 1 year total coaching experience vs Steiner's 15-20. Zalesky is loyal to those close to him. Dare I say to a fault? We'll see as time goes.
This year looks to be a 'down' year. But in 1 or 2 years do we have the firepower to climb back over Stanford, ASU or who ever else finished above us at Las Vegas? As of now we have the title of P-12 champs, but it's looking increasingly like we will be fighting for 3rd place at the conference tournament this year and in the future.
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Post by blastingsand on Dec 30, 2016 3:31:56 GMT -8
I was wondering about Taylor's role as well. It seemed very odd to take such a young coach to do either Steiner or Roberts' duties.
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Post by mtnbeav on Jan 20, 2017 23:32:01 GMT -8
I honestly think it is time for a coaching change. Z was "better" when Steiner was there.
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Post by gonefishin on Jan 22, 2017 3:41:37 GMT -8
I honestly think it is time for a coaching change. Z was "better" when Steiner was there. This coaching staff lost this team the minute Troy left. It's obvious as hell those kids are just going through the motions. This team is a hell of a lot more talented than what's being displayed. It's tough to watch. |
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