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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Mar 15, 2024 13:14:50 GMT -8
UCL surgeries are rampant in baseball. The Physio Scientists blame throwing too hard for too long and with two pitches in particular, the "Sweeper" (breaking balls thrown at full velo) and the "power change up". Fastballs aren't the chief culprit, spin is. The average pitching career now in the Major Leaguers is 2.7 years, not even as good as NFL running backs. That is astounding. I'm sure you all remember how Daisuke Matsuzaka wanted to pitch and pitch and pitch, while the Boston coaches were trying to stop him. It's fascinating to me how the Japanese can pitch long and hard without it leading to UCL, so I looked into it a little. Apparently, the Japanese tend to use more of the shoulder in the pitching motion while the Americans use more of the elbow. I'm sure that my understanding of it is far too superficial, so if anyone is interested, here is the article. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6512154/So why wouldn't we (US baseball) adopt a new approach to pitching that could alleviate the stress on the elbow? Is it cheaper to burn through pitchers? American pitchers are taller, heavier, and throw about 10% harder on average. The Japanese tend to use too much lower body and shoulder, which tends to overstress those parts of the body but saving on the elbow. Americans use a lot more elbow but a lot less lower body and shoulder. Americans suffer a lot more elbow injuries but a lot fewer lower body and shoulder injuries. Anywhere you pitch, though, pitching stresses part of your body. Pick your poison. |
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Post by ag87 on Mar 15, 2024 14:17:21 GMT -8
I talked to a guy maybe seven years ago who had pitched for the Yankees. He was trying to sell me a timeshare. Anyway, in high school he played for Astoria or maybe Knappa. I wasn't sure I believed him but later that day I saw it all checked out. He said he had a hip injury from the rotation of pitching and it was career ending. His stats even for the Yankees were pretty good. I don't remember his name. As a guess, he finished high school in the 1998 to 2004 range.
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Post by BeaverG20 on Mar 15, 2024 14:18:55 GMT -8
Also, where are the HOF or even borderline Japanese pitchers?
They come over with a lot of hype, but not one has put together an amazing 10 year run.
Not talk crap about them, just stating
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Post by ag87 on Mar 15, 2024 14:40:48 GMT -8
I talked to a guy maybe seven years ago who had pitched for the Yankees. He was trying to sell me a timeshare. Anyway, in high school he played for Astoria or maybe Knappa. I wasn't sure I believed him but later that day I saw it all checked out. He said he had a hip injury from the rotation of pitching and it was career ending. His stats even for the Yankees were pretty good. I don't remember his name. As a guess, he finished high school in the 1998 to 2004 range. Brian Bruney - Warrenton HS |
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Mar 15, 2024 14:53:09 GMT -8
I talked to a guy maybe seven years ago who had pitched for the Yankees. He was trying to sell me a timeshare. Anyway, in high school he played for Astoria or maybe Knappa. I wasn't sure I believed him but later that day I saw it all checked out. He said he had a hip injury from the rotation of pitching and it was career ending. His stats even for the Yankees were pretty good. I don't remember his name. As a guess, he finished high school in the 1998 to 2004 range. Brian Bruney - Warrenton HS The best pitcher ever, who was also in Kindergarten Cop? |
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Post by Bodhisattva on Mar 15, 2024 15:16:27 GMT -8
I always wonder if the submarine style stresses the elbow. Such a different motion.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Mar 15, 2024 15:44:20 GMT -8
I always wonder if the submarine style stresses the elbow. Such a different motion. Submarine style puts even more stress on the elbow mph for mph. However, submarine style pitchers tend not to throw as hard as other pitcher, so it tends to even out. Fewer shoulder injuries. More abdominal and back injuries, though. More traditional pitching styles generally stress the abdominals and back a lot less. |
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Post by ag87 on Mar 15, 2024 16:28:01 GMT -8
Brian Bruney - Warrenton HS The best pitcher ever, who was also in Kindergarten Cop? Schwarzneggar would have been the best if he flexed after every strikeout, but he never struck someone out. |
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Post by Judge Smails on Mar 15, 2024 16:35:10 GMT -8
I always wonder if the submarine style stresses the elbow. Such a different motion. Submarine style puts even more stress on the elbow mph for mph. However, submarine style pitchers tend not to throw as hard as other pitcher, so it tends to even out. Fewer shoulder injuries. More abdominal and back injuries, though. More traditional pitching styles generally stress the abdominals and back a lot less. They don’t throw as hard because you can’t from that arm slot. You just don’t have the leverage. But yes, that style is nasty on the elbow. That’s why you don’t see a lot of pros that throw that way, in addition to the lack of velocity from that style. |
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Mar 15, 2024 16:38:37 GMT -8
The best pitcher ever, who was also in Kindergarten Cop? Schwarzneggar would have been the best if he flexed after every strikeout, but he never struck someone out. Kyle Farnsworth without the uniform:  |
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Post by irimi on Mar 15, 2024 17:00:18 GMT -8
Also, where are the HOF or even borderline Japanese pitchers? They come over with a lot of hype, but not one has put together an amazing 10 year run. Not talk crap about them, just stating Could be, like in Daisuke's case, the American coaches force them to do things differently than they had been doing in Japan. Could be. Could be that Japanese baseball players have to put in their time in Japan before they are allowed to go abroad. Like when Ichiro got rookie of the year. LOL. He had already been playing for about 9 years before he was a "rookie" in the MLB. Could be. Not talking crap, just suggesting. In fact, I think Wilky's post has some merit to it. There certainly must be a lot of factors involved. Plus, I think it's extremely difficult to live and thrive in a foreign country, especially if you've gone from being a huge star to just a mediocre player in the big MLB. I suspect there are a lot of players who just don't want the hassle of playing in the US, speaking English, dealing with American food, and the culture. Last, you could look up Hideo Nomo. He was amazing and he pitched for a long time. Of course, there's the amazing Ohtani, who is a future hall of famer as long as he doesn't gamble on the games. And there's Yu Darvish pitching now and he's been here for a long time. I remember hearing about him back in Nippon in 2007/8. |
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Post by BeaverG20 on Mar 15, 2024 18:10:14 GMT -8
Also, where are the HOF or even borderline Japanese pitchers? They come over with a lot of hype, but not one has put together an amazing 10 year run. Not talk crap about them, just stating Could be, like in Daisuke's case, the American coaches force them to do things differently than they had been doing in Japan. Could be. Could be that Japanese baseball players have to put in their time in Japan before they are allowed to go abroad. Like when Ichiro got rookie of the year. LOL. He had already been playing for about 9 years before he was a "rookie" in the MLB. Could be. Not talking crap, just suggesting. In fact, I think Wilky's post has some merit to it. There certainly must be a lot of factors involved. Plus, I think it's extremely difficult to live and thrive in a foreign country, especially if you've gone from being a huge star to just a mediocre player in the big MLB. I suspect there are a lot of players who just don't want the hassle of playing in the US, speaking English, dealing with American food, and the culture. Last, you could look up Hideo Nomo. He was amazing and he pitched for a long time. Of course, there's the amazing Ohtani, who is a future hall of famer as long as he doesn't gamble on the games. And there's Yu Darvish pitching now and he's been here for a long time. I remember hearing about him back in Nippon in 2007/8. Ohtani is amazing. He is also 2 TJ surgeries in. Hideo Nomo was average. 20 WAR over 12 seasons with an average season of 13-12 with 4.25 Era is decent, but not amazing. We will see how Yoshinobu Yamamoto does, and I hope he does amazing. Until I see a Japanese player come over here and have anything close to a border line HOF career like Johan Santana or many others, I'll assume that though the Japanese pitching style is different, it isn't better. |
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Post by rgeorge on Mar 15, 2024 18:31:16 GMT -8
I talked to a guy maybe seven years ago who had pitched for the Yankees. He was trying to sell me a timeshare. Anyway, in high school he played for Astoria or maybe Knappa. I wasn't sure I believed him but later that day I saw it all checked out. He said he had a hip injury from the rotation of pitching and it was career ending. His stats even for the Yankees were pretty good. I don't remember his name. As a guess, he finished high school in the 1998 to 2004 range. Can't recall the name this instant, but could it have been Warrenton for coach Wolfe? |
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Post by irimi on Mar 15, 2024 19:13:18 GMT -8
Could be, like in Daisuke's case, the American coaches force them to do things differently than they had been doing in Japan. Could be. Could be that Japanese baseball players have to put in their time in Japan before they are allowed to go abroad. Like when Ichiro got rookie of the year. LOL. He had already been playing for about 9 years before he was a "rookie" in the MLB. Could be. Not talking crap, just suggesting. In fact, I think Wilky's post has some merit to it. There certainly must be a lot of factors involved. Plus, I think it's extremely difficult to live and thrive in a foreign country, especially if you've gone from being a huge star to just a mediocre player in the big MLB. I suspect there are a lot of players who just don't want the hassle of playing in the US, speaking English, dealing with American food, and the culture. Last, you could look up Hideo Nomo. He was amazing and he pitched for a long time. Of course, there's the amazing Ohtani, who is a future hall of famer as long as he doesn't gamble on the games. And there's Yu Darvish pitching now and he's been here for a long time. I remember hearing about him back in Nippon in 2007/8. Ohtani is amazing. He is also 2 TJ surgeries in. Hideo Nomo was average. 20 WAR over 12 seasons with an average season of 13-12 with 4.25 Era is decent, but not amazing. We will see how Yoshinobu Yamamoto does, and I hope he does amazing. Until I see a Japanese player come over here and have anything close to a border line HOF career like Johan Santana or many others, I'll assume that though the Japanese pitching style is different, it isn't better. But I wasn’t claiming it was better, just that they work pitchers harder and have fewer issues. Which might be worth looking into. |
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Post by Henry Skrimshander on Mar 15, 2024 19:29:28 GMT -8
Submarine style puts even more stress on the elbow mph for mph. However, submarine style pitchers tend not to throw as hard as other pitcher, so it tends to even out. Fewer shoulder injuries. More abdominal and back injuries, though. More traditional pitching styles generally stress the abdominals and back a lot less. They don’t throw as hard because you can’t from that arm slot. You just don’t have the leverage. But yes, that style is nasty on the elbow. That’s why you don’t see a lot of pros that throw that way, in addition to the lack of velocity from that style. Joe Smith, who pitched for Wright State when they were here in 2006 at the regional, recently retired. He was the most veteran of the submarine style, with 866 lifetime appearances from 2007-2022 (he sat out 2020). |
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