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Post by grayman on Feb 8, 2023 11:46:21 GMT -8
beaveragain,
Well stated. Thank you!
If the issue is not over control that has led to the Beaver's lack of success in recent years, what problems would you attribute the rather quick trip from the top of the conference to the bottom?
Injuries and transfers. Transfers have sapped OSU of it's experienced players. The team that SR recruited to play this year was Jones, Brown, Sasha, Greta and Talia. I don't know how the scoring would have gone, but they would have crushed on defense. Instead they started the backup post, a frosh who missed most of the preseason and half the season, a walk on, a transfer and one returning guard who again has tried to carry the team on her back and her back seems to have gotten to the breaking point. This is true to an extent. The arrival of Beers kind of erases the need for Jones. Mit's growth neutralizes the loss of Brown. Of course, Mit and Beers don't play together all that much. Sasha was probably the loss that still impacts the team. Gardiner will most likely alleviate losing her to a large degree down the road. The Beavers are relatively youthful, but that doesn't mean Rueck has gone with inexperienced players much. He hasn't. TVO is in her third season with the program (first one was shortened, of course). She leads the team in PT with 31.3 minutes a game. Yeaney is a redshirt senior transfer who played her career in the Pac-12. She is second on the team with 28.2 minutes. Mannen, in her fourth season with the team (RJr), averages 24.8 minutes a game. Mit has been in the program three years (RSoph) and averages 22.8 minutes. Marotte, a sophomore, averages 22.2 and Aaron, a RJr transfer, averages 20.1. Beers averages 23.1 but also plays at a pretty high level consistently. Gardiner is at 23.4 minutes but has played 7 games. So it's not a lack of experienced players on the roster or a lack of playing time for those players. Of course, there's a push on this board for Rueck to give more playing time to the other freshmen. The biggest missing piece is at point guard. |
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Post by beaveragain on Feb 8, 2023 15:35:50 GMT -8
ok, nailed it. Hard to continually stay on top when your juniors and seniors are bailing to go back home, which has happened too many times to count in the last 3 years. You absolutely need those upper class kids and that experience to win, and for whatever reason, we are just about a team of high school kids.. It’s ok to lose them, you just have to bring in other ones. Utah is good because of transfers with experience, not because they didn’t lose players to the transfer portal. Our best scoring options are freshman because we had a corers transfer AND we didn’t get consistent scorers with transfers in. Utah got better with one transfer, Pili. A number of other schools got a good one also, but it's not as if anyone built a team with transfers. And that's what OSU would have needed with 4 starters transferring out. |
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Post by beaveragain on Feb 8, 2023 15:37:37 GMT -8
At the moment I'd say three of the top coaches in women's basketball are Geno, Shaefer, and Mulkey. I have seen all three of them explode at players for not running a play the way they wanted them too. I have never seen Rueck react that way. The idea that SR is unique in sending in plays is absurd. Do you guys watch any women's basketball other than OSU? Is not Dawn Staley a better choice than Shaefer? I haven't seen her screaming at her players like I have the others. Not to say she hasn't ever done it, just that I haven't seen her do it. |
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Post by grayman on Feb 8, 2023 17:11:30 GMT -8
Coaches can put pressure on players in many different ways. No doubt there have been plenty of coaches who are stoic during games that did not get along with players.
Not saying Rueck goes into some sort of crazy control mode when fans aren't there, but there are extremely vocal, intense coaches who show it during games more than others.
If anything, Rueck gets into it with the refs.
Are players bailing on coaches like Geno and Mulkey?
One of the worst cases of a coach derailing was right here at Oregon State. LaVonda Wagner. But it wasn't her conduct during games that was the problem, not by a long shot.
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Post by beaverstever on Feb 8, 2023 17:56:13 GMT -8
It’s ok to lose them, you just have to bring in other ones. Utah is good because of transfers with experience, not because they didn’t lose players to the transfer portal. Our best scoring options are freshman because we had a corers transfer AND we didn’t get consistent scorers with transfers in. Utah got better with one transfer, Pili. A number of other schools got a good one also, but it's not as if anyone built a team with transfers. And that's what OSU would have needed with 4 starters transferring out. Even it I was just one, that's still the net result. But Palmer is also a transfer from Texas. That's two starters averaging a combined 30 ppg. When they got Pili, they lost Gylten, Martin and Maxwell - their top 3 scorers in 20-21. They've weathered the storm; they've certainly recruited the HS ranks well, so agree they've largely still built the team from HS. But they are a long ways from where they are without Pili and Palmer. And they have another transfer in Sow, who if she gets healthy, adds a 6'8" player. |
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Post by beaveragain on Feb 8, 2023 20:07:04 GMT -8
Utah got better with one transfer, Pili. A number of other schools got a good one also, but it's not as if anyone built a team with transfers. And that's what OSU would have needed with 4 starters transferring out. Even it I was just one, that's still the net result. But Palmer is also a transfer from Texas. That's two starters averaging a combined 30 ppg. When they got Pili, they lost Gylten, Martin and Maxwell - their top 3 scorers in 20-21. They've weathered the storm; they've certainly recruited the HS ranks well, so agree they've largely still built the team from HS. But they are a long ways from where they are without Pili and Palmer. And they have another transfer in Sow, who if she gets healthy, adds a 6'8" player. Ok, I missed Palmer, but she's in her 2nd year at Utah. But whatever. |
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Post by jimbob on Feb 9, 2023 19:59:30 GMT -8
Coaches can put pressure on players in many different ways. No doubt there have been plenty of coaches who are stoic during games that did not get along with players. Not saying Rueck goes into some sort of crazy control mode when fans aren't there, but there are extremely vocal, intense coaches who show it during games more than others. If anything, Rueck gets into it with the refs. Are players bailing on coaches like Geno and Mulkey? One of the worst cases of a coach derailing was right here at Oregon State. LaVonda Wagner. But it wasn't her conduct during games that was the problem, not by a long shot. Actually her during game conduct was an issue....I was still taking my daughters to all of the home games back then and we would get there early so we could get the best GA seats floor level where we could see the players and coach close up, and more than one game late in her last season when things were going poorly in the 4th quarter she gave up on her team and flat out quit coaching. She would just sit there expressionlist and sulking sometimes not even watching the game, and one time when the team ran a bad play with about 2 min. to go she threw up her hands in disgust, cussed and walked off the floor into the locker room! |
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bmoc
Freshman
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Post by bmoc on Feb 9, 2023 20:20:47 GMT -8
She was constantly "dressing the players down" on the sidelines in front of everyone. I remember when I first saw how bad it had gotten for my team. She was screaming at Kirsten Tilleman (sp) from Montana about something. And she stopped on the court and yelled back, "I know." It was a bold pushback on her part. Huge staff turnover as well, except for Erin Entwhistle, director of Ops. That off season, Talisa Rhea left and opened up the floodgates. Recruited some truly great players, but a completely toxic human.
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Post by believeinthebeavs on Feb 9, 2023 20:49:06 GMT -8
Coaches can put pressure on players in many different ways. No doubt there have been plenty of coaches who are stoic during games that did not get along with players. Not saying Rueck goes into some sort of crazy control mode when fans aren't there, but there are extremely vocal, intense coaches who show it during games more than others. If anything, Rueck gets into it with the refs. Are players bailing on coaches like Geno and Mulkey? One of the worst cases of a coach derailing was right here at Oregon State. LaVonda Wagner. But it wasn't her conduct during games that was the problem, not by a long shot. Actually her during game conduct was an issue....I was still taking my daughters to all of the home games back then and we would get there early so we could get the best GA seats floor level where we could see the players and coach close up, and more than one game late in her last season when things were going poorly in the 4th quarter she gave up on her team and flat out quit coaching. She would just sit there expressionlist and sulking sometimes not even watching the game, and one time when the team ran a bad play with about 2 min. to go she threw up her hands in disgust, cussed and walked off the floor into the locker room! She was a real piece of work on and off the court. I still wonder how she was allowed to coach as long as she was. There were issues with her players from early on and nothing was done until the mass exodus. Anyone who was a fan during those years could see that there were problems but not to what extent. According to himself Rueck can get intense in practice and in games, difference is in practice he is known to put himself in a time out when that happens. A few years ago he showed up to practice and sat there and just let the other coaches run the practice and he just sat and watched. According to either Brian or Jonah, I can't remember which, he didn't say a word for the entire practice. One thing that seems to be different is that for several years he had Mandy and then Katie sit between the coaches and the players. Their role was to coach the players during the games. Rueck was freed up to work the game and deal with the officials. I was thinking that Deven would step into that role but I haven't seen it yet. One of the assistant or associate coaches need to step up, I see players going out and coming in without much coaching. |
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Post by grad1973 on Feb 10, 2023 11:52:05 GMT -8
Have read lots of comments about controlling or over coaching. Are there specific examples? Sure OSU runs more of a half court style. I think it's pretty well understood that the Beavers are trying to keep the score in the 60's and as long as they win the rebounding battle and outshoot the other team from the three point line - that's been a pretty consistent recipe for W's. But considering the Beavs constantly have more TO's than the other team (whether 30 win season or 10 win season) and I've seen some pretty crazy shots thrown up this season; it appears no one is being told what passes to not attempt or what shots not to take. So what exactly is being controlled? Just the freedom to race up and down the court willy-nilly and throw crazier passes and attempt wilder shots? Every team has to have a game plan. I think the Beavers is based on controlling tempo and attempting to play stifling defense (may not be accomplishing that this year). Is that the over coaching? That OSU's not a baseline to baseline try to score 90+ points a game team? You can win or lose that way too. Duke averages 67 points a game and they're 20-3 and ranked 9th in the country. Is their coach too controlling and no one wants to play there? Northern Arizona averages 79 points a game and are unranked and 14-11. Are they about to close out a top 20 recruiting class cause they play up tempo? Or has that just become a convenient excuse for our recent struggles? I'm not close enough to the program to know if players are being told, "YOU ARE NEVER TO ATTEMPT TO DO X UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE." It certainly doesn't look that way when I watch. I would say if there is controlling going on its on the defensive side where our strategy does call for specific execution of not reaching or over extending into passing lanes to make steals - cause they value forcing tough shots and expect to get rebounds over gambling for steals. But offensively, other than the fact they run a little slower tempo (still 106 out of 350) I personally don't see lots of examples of "controlling". I see at least two. You can see almost every play except for Benyu that whoever is at point deliberately has to slow down tempo in order to look over at Rueck. Second, it is very obvious during our half course offense I call it the one and done. That with the exception of Beers, everybody bolts the opposite direction when a shot missed, to get back on defense. That looks scripted also. That became lethal with Colorados ability to build their lead. We left the basket every time we missed. No effort to get rebounds under the gasket. Particularly when mit was in. But when Colorado would miss even 3 or 4 shots they kept getting rebounds and finally score. That only changes IF Beers is in she is the only person who even waits to see where the ball goes! Is that why she has lost minutes of playing time….. We lost with Colorado over this very obvious flaw. All the sudden we have become a poor rebounding team if you haven’t noticed that. Somebody really missed analyzing something for getting ready for the Colorado game! Question, how is it Benyu exempt from slowing things down? Because she can use her speed to get lay up’s. This proves we have an issue at point guard. Which Rueck also knows about or he would question Benyu on this and stop her? |
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Post by beaveragain on Feb 10, 2023 17:16:53 GMT -8
Beers plays as many minutes as penalties and endurance allows her.
And yes, Rueck mentioned they lost the game because of rebounding/not boxing out.
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Post by grad1973 on Feb 10, 2023 19:35:39 GMT -8
Beers has enough stamina to put up 20 point nites and 10-15 rebound games
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Post by beaveragain on Feb 10, 2023 19:41:59 GMT -8
Beers has enough stamina to put up 20 point nites and 10-15 rebound games Sometimes, against some opponents. Give her a break, she's a frosh. |
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Post by beaveragain on Feb 11, 2023 11:59:58 GMT -8
I do find it amusing that Duck fans are complaining about how Graves just sits at the end of the bench and he doesn't DO anything.
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Post by skyrider on Feb 11, 2023 12:18:37 GMT -8
I do find it amusing that Duck fans are complaining about how Graves just sits at the end of the bench and he doesn't DO anything. beaveragain,
My observation as a 60 year Beaver fan is that (a) most Beaver WBB fans would prefer to be loyal and supportive of the program come hell or high water but (b) become apprehensive and critical when it seems that something has gone chronically bad in a program (i.e "big boy pants" Andersen or LaVonda Wagner).
The tough part is figuring out when actually something is chronically bad versus the basically acceptable middle of the road finishes in conference standings, etc. that is realistic for the programs.
In the case of women's basketball the last few years have seen a steep decline in wins and losses
. Is this just an leveling out of the excellent success that happened for several years, or do we have a situation where the Coach who was so successful has reached the point where he is not putting in the necessary effort any more and/or is just burnt out?
I would speculate that we will know a lot more when we see how many of the OSU women players enter the transfer portal this off season.
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