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Post by bvrblvr on Feb 7, 2023 10:00:16 GMT -8
Have read lots of comments about controlling or over coaching. Are there specific examples?
Sure OSU runs more of a half court style. I think it's pretty well understood that the Beavers are trying to keep the score in the 60's and as long as they win the rebounding battle and outshoot the other team from the three point line - that's been a pretty consistent recipe for W's.
But considering the Beavs constantly have more TO's than the other team (whether 30 win season or 10 win season) and I've seen some pretty crazy shots thrown up this season; it appears no one is being told what passes to not attempt or what shots not to take.
So what exactly is being controlled? Just the freedom to race up and down the court willy-nilly and throw crazier passes and attempt wilder shots?
Every team has to have a game plan. I think the Beavers is based on controlling tempo and attempting to play stifling defense (may not be accomplishing that this year).
Is that the over coaching? That OSU's not a baseline to baseline try to score 90+ points a game team? You can win or lose that way too.
Duke averages 67 points a game and they're 20-3 and ranked 9th in the country. Is their coach too controlling and no one wants to play there?
Northern Arizona averages 79 points a game and are unranked and 14-11. Are they about to close out a top 20 recruiting class cause they play up tempo?
Or has that just become a convenient excuse for our recent struggles? I'm not close enough to the program to know if players are being told, "YOU ARE NEVER TO ATTEMPT TO DO X UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE." It certainly doesn't look that way when I watch.
I would say if there is controlling going on its on the defensive side where our strategy does call for specific execution of not reaching or over extending into passing lanes to make steals - cause they value forcing tough shots and expect to get rebounds over gambling for steals. But offensively, other than the fact they run a little slower tempo (still 106 out of 350) I personally don't see lots of examples of "controlling".
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Post by beavheart on Feb 7, 2023 10:24:52 GMT -8
I mean, at some level a coach has to have control of their team. I agree the notion that Rueck having a strangle hold on his team is overblown. That really gained traction when Destiny complained about it getting in her way to perform. She then went to a program that offered what she said she needed, and regressed as a player.
That said, I think I've had my fill of our PGs looking back at our coach to get the play on every stinking trip down the floor. It's resulted in more than a few steals for the other team over the years, and a bunch of near steals/our PG getting thrown off her natural rhythm. That is a dynamic that needs to change IMO. These are grown ass women. Can they not be trusted to call their own plays? If not, can't the play be signaled through any of the other 4 players already looking back at the bench? This has bothered me for a while now, and I can't believe we're still doing it. Makes us look like a JV team too.
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Post by hoopheritic on Feb 7, 2023 10:42:44 GMT -8
Data doesn't really show over-coaching. As a coach in the past and now a basketball trainer (HS boys) I see it in the way players play. You can tell when players are playing with fear. Playing to not make mistakes rather than playing free. This is always caused by over-coaching and minute management.
Basketball happens too fast to simply run plays and patterns like you would in football. It's the improvisation and creativity that makes players and teams great. Players who are afraid they're about to get pulled from the game will be cautious and simply will not reach their potential. You have to let players make mistakes without the added fear of losing minutes (within reason).
Right now the only players I see being given space to create are Talia, Noelle, Timea, and Bendu. 2 of those are not scorers.
The other sign of over-coaching is misuse of talent. The biggest sin I see here is parking AJ in the corner waiting for a kick out three. I think that's a good spot for Lex, Lily, and Adlee. But you have an athlete who can turn the corner on anyone in the Pac 12 standing around as a spot up shooter? That's tragic. The other big misuse I see is going too big in game closing situations.
I think it really comes down to Rueck choosing system first and then trying to wedge the personnel into it. At least that's how it appears. When you only return 4 players and your roster doesn't look how you planned your system needs to take a back seat to your personnel. We don't have a reliable true point guard so we shouldn't be running a system that needs one. There are plenty of ways to run an offense without a PG. Old heads might not think this is true but there are many teams out there excelling at it in the modern game.
All that is well and good and we can Monday morning QB until we're orange in the face but none of us will be able to know what is happening within the locker room. I wish the best for this team, there is some great talent there and getting it all to work is a huge undertaking.
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Post by grayman on Feb 7, 2023 11:34:56 GMT -8
I mean, at some level a coach has to have control of their team. I agree the notion that Rueck having a strangle hold on his team is overblown. That really gained traction when Destiny complained about it getting in her way to perform. She then went to a program that offered what she said she needed, and regressed as a player. That said, I think I've had my fill of our PGs looking back at our coach to get the play on every stinking trip down the floor. It's resulted in more than a few steals for the other team over the years, and a bunch of near steals/our PG getting thrown off her natural rhythm. That is a dynamic that needs to change IMO. These are grown ass women. Can they not be trusted to call their own plays? If not, can't the play be signaled through any of the other 4 players already looking back at the bench? This has bothered me for a while now, and I can't believe we're still doing it. Makes us look like a JV team too. No, Slocum played at about the same level at Arkansas as she did at OSU. She averaged 15 points a game there and averaged 15.4 and 14.9 the two seasons she was active at OSU (she had to sit out her first season). She had career highs in field goal percentage and 3-point percentage at Arkansas. Her assists average did drop, but it also dropped from her freshman year at Maryland when she went to OSU (not sure what to make of that other than maybe getting used to the tendencies of teammates). Her rebounding and steals stayed roughly the same. I think people took a lot more notice of Rueck's "controlling style" when Slocum left and your second paragraph speaks to that. I think it's a combination of how he controls the point guard play and, like Hoopheretic posted, "Rueck choosing system first and then trying to wedge the personnel into it." Maybe it is overblown, but I don't think there's a lot of fans complaining about the perceived controlling nature of most other coaches running similar systems. That is, I believe Rueck has earned the reputation, at least to a certain degree. I get the feeling that he's backed off some, but I don't have a good way of gauging that, obviously. |
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Post by beaverstever on Feb 7, 2023 13:34:25 GMT -8
I mean, at some level a coach has to have control of their team. I agree the notion that Rueck having a strangle hold on his team is overblown. That really gained traction when Destiny complained about it getting in her way to perform. She then went to a program that offered what she said she needed, and regressed as a player. That said, I think I've had my fill of our PGs looking back at our coach to get the play on every stinking trip down the floor. It's resulted in more than a few steals for the other team over the years, and a bunch of near steals/our PG getting thrown off her natural rhythm. That is a dynamic that needs to change IMO. These are grown ass women. Can they not be trusted to call their own plays? If not, can't the play be signaled through any of the other 4 players already looking back at the bench? This has bothered me for a while now, and I can't believe we're still doing it. Makes us look like a JV team too. No, Slocum played at about the same level at Arkansas as she did at OSU. She averaged 15 points a game there and averaged 15.4 and 14.9 the two seasons she was active at OSU (she had to sit out her first season). She had career highs in field goal percentage and 3-point percentage at Arkansas. Her assists average did drop, but it also dropped from her freshman year at Maryland when she went to OSU (not sure what to make of that other than maybe getting used to the tendencies of teammates). Her rebounding and steals stayed roughly the same. I think people took a lot more notice of Rueck's "controlling style" when Slocum left and your second paragraph speaks to that. I think it's a combination of how he controls the point guard play and, like Hoopheretic posted, "Rueck choosing system first and then trying to wedge the personnel into it." Maybe it is overblown, but I don't think there's a lot of fans complaining about the perceived controlling nature of most other coaches running similar systems. That is, I believe Rueck has earned the reputation, at least to a certain degree. I get the feeling that he's backed off some, but I don't have a good way of gauging that, obviously. She was more efficient at Ark, but ironically got fewer shots. I agree she didn’t regress, but I would argue that the team she went to did less with more talent than at OSU, suggesting her overall impact may have regressed. |
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Post by grayman on Feb 7, 2023 13:40:25 GMT -8
No, Slocum played at about the same level at Arkansas as she did at OSU. She averaged 15 points a game there and averaged 15.4 and 14.9 the two seasons she was active at OSU (she had to sit out her first season). She had career highs in field goal percentage and 3-point percentage at Arkansas. Her assists average did drop, but it also dropped from her freshman year at Maryland when she went to OSU (not sure what to make of that other than maybe getting used to the tendencies of teammates). Her rebounding and steals stayed roughly the same. I think people took a lot more notice of Rueck's "controlling style" when Slocum left and your second paragraph speaks to that. I think it's a combination of how he controls the point guard play and, like Hoopheretic posted, "Rueck choosing system first and then trying to wedge the personnel into it." Maybe it is overblown, but I don't think there's a lot of fans complaining about the perceived controlling nature of most other coaches running similar systems. That is, I believe Rueck has earned the reputation, at least to a certain degree. I get the feeling that he's backed off some, but I don't have a good way of gauging that, obviously. She was more efficient at Ark, but ironically got fewer shots. I agree she didn’t regress, but I would argue that the team she went to did less with more talent than at OSU, suggesting her overall impact may have regressed. Maybe, but it's hard to say what would have happened had she, for example, been able to sit a year and then play two at Arkansas. |
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Post by beaveragain on Feb 7, 2023 17:01:19 GMT -8
At the moment I'd say three of the top coaches in women's basketball are Geno, Shaefer, and Mulkey. I have seen all three of them explode at players for not running a play the way they wanted them too. I have never seen Rueck react that way.
The idea that SR is unique in sending in plays is absurd. Do you guys watch any women's basketball other than OSU?
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Post by skyrider on Feb 7, 2023 17:23:13 GMT -8
At the moment I'd say three of the top coaches in women's basketball are Geno, Shaefer, and Mulkey. I have seen all three of them explode at players for not running a play the way they wanted them too. I have never seen Rueck react that way. The idea that SR is unique in sending in plays is absurd. Do you guys watch any women's basketball other than OSU? beaveragain,
Well stated. Thank you!
If the issue is not over control that has led to the Beaver's lack of success in recent years, what problems would you attribute the rather quick trip from the top of the conference to the bottom?
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Post by wbosh15 on Feb 7, 2023 18:01:02 GMT -8
At the moment I'd say three of the top coaches in women's basketball are Geno, Shaefer, and Mulkey. I have seen all three of them explode at players for not running a play the way they wanted them too. I have never seen Rueck react that way. The idea that SR is unique in sending in plays is absurd. Do you guys watch any women's basketball other than OSU? beaveragain,
Well stated. Thank you!
If the issue is not over control that has led to the Beaver's lack of success in recent years, what problems would you attribute the rather quick trip from the top of the conference to the bottom?
0 scholarship OSU veteran upperclassmen(women). 3 years since our last WNBA draft pick. Scheme, etc really helps on the margins, but to win your need great players. Our last senior great player was Aleah. |
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Post by beaveragain on Feb 7, 2023 20:28:54 GMT -8
At the moment I'd say three of the top coaches in women's basketball are Geno, Shaefer, and Mulkey. I have seen all three of them explode at players for not running a play the way they wanted them too. I have never seen Rueck react that way. The idea that SR is unique in sending in plays is absurd. Do you guys watch any women's basketball other than OSU? beaveragain,
Well stated. Thank you!
If the issue is not over control that has led to the Beaver's lack of success in recent years, what problems would you attribute the rather quick trip from the top of the conference to the bottom?
Injuries and transfers. Transfers have sapped OSU of it's experienced players. The team that SR recruited to play this year was Jones, Brown, Sasha, Greta and Talia. I don't know how the scoring would have gone, but they would have crushed on defense. Instead they started the backup post, a frosh who missed most of the preseason and half the season, a walk on, a transfer and one returning guard who again has tried to carry the team on her back and her back seems to have gotten to the breaking point. |
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Post by skyrider on Feb 7, 2023 21:07:12 GMT -8
beaveragain,
Well stated. Thank you!
If the issue is not over control that has led to the Beaver's lack of success in recent years, what problems would you attribute the rather quick trip from the top of the conference to the bottom?
Injuries and transfers. Transfers have sapped OSU of it's experienced players. The team that SR recruited to play this year was Jones, Brown, Sasha, Greta and Talia. I don't know how the scoring would have gone, but they would have crushed on defense. Instead they started the backup post, a frosh who missed most of the preseason and half the season, a walk on, a transfer and one returning guard who again has tried to carry the team on her back and her back seems to have gotten to the breaking point. beaveragain,
Again you have probably hit the target "dead center" with that diagnosis. However, that then leads to the question-were all the transfers just "bad luck" or is their something systemically wrong with the program?
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Post by believeinthebeavs on Feb 7, 2023 22:05:45 GMT -8
Injuries and transfers. Transfers have sapped OSU of it's experienced players. The team that SR recruited to play this year was Jones, Brown, Sasha, Greta and Talia. I don't know how the scoring would have gone, but they would have crushed on defense. Instead they started the backup post, a frosh who missed most of the preseason and half the season, a walk on, a transfer and one returning guard who again has tried to carry the team on her back and her back seems to have gotten to the breaking point. beaveragain,
Again you have probably hit the target "dead center" with that diagnosis. However, that then leads to the question-were all the transfers just "bad luck" or is their something systemically wrong with the program?
Covid and the portal has screwed things up pretty much everywhere. We aren't the only program that is struggling. The biggest concern the ncaa had about an open portal has come, there are a few schools that are going to profit from it but most are going to have issues. NIL does not help this at all. I have yet to see or hear anything from a reliable source that there is something wrong with the program. The results this season is far more indicative of roster that includes almost ½ freshmen, add the two transfers and over ½ are new to the team. Only 1 starter returned from last year. It's a young, inexperienced team. The fact that we have been able to hang with some very good teams goes well for the future. Most have moved to schools closer to home, easy to understand since travel had been restricted. |
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rafer
Sophomore
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Post by rafer on Feb 8, 2023 8:37:08 GMT -8
beaveragain,
Well stated. Thank you!
If the issue is not over control that has led to the Beaver's lack of success in recent years, what problems would you attribute the rather quick trip from the top of the conference to the bottom?
0 scholarship OSU veteran upperclassmen(women). 3 years since our last WNBA draft pick. Scheme, etc really helps on the margins, but to win your need great players. Our last senior great player was Aleah. ok, nailed it. Hard to continually stay on top when your juniors and seniors are bailing to go back home, which has happened too many times to count in the last 3 years. You absolutely need those upper class kids and that experience to win, and for whatever reason, we are just about a team of high school kids.. |
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Post by beaverstever on Feb 8, 2023 10:42:49 GMT -8
0 scholarship OSU veteran upperclassmen(women). 3 years since our last WNBA draft pick. Scheme, etc really helps on the margins, but to win your need great players. Our last senior great player was Aleah. ok, nailed it. Hard to continually stay on top when your juniors and seniors are bailing to go back home, which has happened too many times to count in the last 3 years. You absolutely need those upper class kids and that experience to win, and for whatever reason, we are just about a team of high school kids.. It’s ok to lose them, you just have to bring in other ones. Utah is good because of transfers with experience, not because they didn’t lose players to the transfer portal. Our best scoring options are freshman because we had a corers transfer AND we didn’t get consistent scorers with transfers in. |
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Post by larbeav on Feb 8, 2023 11:37:21 GMT -8
At the moment I'd say three of the top coaches in women's basketball are Geno, Shaefer, and Mulkey. I have seen all three of them explode at players for not running a play the way they wanted them too. I have never seen Rueck react that way. The idea that SR is unique in sending in plays is absurd. Do you guys watch any women's basketball other than OSU? Is not Dawn Staley a better choice than Shaefer? |
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