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Post by wbosh15 on Feb 6, 2023 10:07:50 GMT -8
A lot of folks in some of the other threads have talked about TVO's struggles, especially against Colorado, but I didn't want to put this in the game thread. This is what's happening to TVO this season IMO. Lots of folks have had similar thoughts, but I wanted to summarize. There could be some sort of nagging injury as well, but I don't really want to speculate on anything there. 1. TVO is still an excellent shooter when open. I don't have the ability to get tracking data, and I don't think Second Spectrum type player tracking is available on all NCAA floors, however I would love to see TVO's shooting percentage when she actually has space for her shot. 2 However, TVO has a rather low release, and she's probably closer to a slow release than a quick release, although I would say it's ok. This is very important, because she plays a VAST majority of her minutes as the only perimeter shooter on the floor at the guard/wing positions. Mannen is a reluctant shooter, and has really struggled this year, and we've all mentioned how Bendu is played as a shooter. This means she is number 1 on the scouting report as OSU's top perimeter threat, getting the best perimeter defender, and having to deal with early help because the other 2 perimeter defenders don't fear the shooting of the players they are guarding. Contrast this to her 1/2 high school/covid season, when she was sharing the floor with Sasha and Aleah, and that would certainly explain why she had more space, and was able to get to the basket a bit easier. 3. There is LOTS of tape on TVO, as our offensive engine, and the game plan is to force her left, and take away space. Since she has the low release, and really plays with the mentality of a scorer, this has really been a struggle for her. To make things even easier for a defense, young players in the system don't always react well when the first option of a play gets taken away, or sometimes just don't run the play with the proper timing/spacing/etc. A lot of her shots are late in the shot clock because of these mistakes, so she is taking shots to avoid a 30 second call, but here IMO is where a lot of her improvement areas are. - She needs to get much more comfortable attacking with her left hand. If she could reject the screen at times, and attack with her left hand that could open up some space.
- TVO does have nice passing vision, but she should look to attack more with an eye on creation, instead of scoring. This could be made much easier if she's playing with Adlee or Lily as shooters, or AJ who can attack off of a closeout.
- To expand on the creation aspect, especially in P&R with Timea or Reagan, look to extend her dribble out, to get a better passing angle into the big as they post up.
4. I've seen lots of stories on TVO being the team leader, as well as being considered the most competitive person on the team. I am sure that her personal struggles are really taking a toll. I hope the coaching staff and fans can do their best to really breathe confidence into these young women. TVO is a wonderful player and I enjoy watching her. As bad as the Colorado game was, I think there is good stuff coming, as long as the team doesn't let go of the rope.
Go Beavs
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Post by skyrider on Feb 6, 2023 10:21:02 GMT -8
A lot of folks in some of the other threads have talked about TVO's struggles, especially against Colorado, but I didn't want to put this in the game thread. This is what's happening to TVO this season IMO. Lots of folks have had similar thoughts, but I wanted to summarize. There could be some sort of nagging injury as well, but I don't really want to speculate on anything there. 1. TVO is still an excellent shooter when open. I don't have the ability to get tracking data, and I don't think Second Spectrum type player tracking is available on all NCAA floors, however I would love to see TVO's shooting percentage when she actually has space for her shot. 2 However, TVO has a rather low release, and she's probably closer to a slow release than a quick release, although I would say it's ok. This is very important, because she plays a VAST majority of her minutes as the only perimeter shooter on the floor at the guard/wing positions. Mannen is a reluctant shooter, and has really struggled this year, and we've all mentioned how Bendu is played as a shooter. This means she is number 1 on the scouting report as OSU's top perimeter threat, getting the best perimeter defender, and having to deal with early help because the other 2 perimeter defenders don't fear the shooting of the players they are guarding. Contrast this to her 1/2 high school/covid season, when she was sharing the floor with Sasha and Aleah, and that would certainly explain why she had more space, and was able to get to the basket a bit easier. 3. There is LOTS of tape on TVO, as our offensive engine, and the game plan is to force her left, and take away space. Since she has the low release, and really plays with the mentality of a scorer, this has really been a struggle for her. To make things even easier for a defense, young players in the system don't always react well when the first option of a play gets taken away, or sometimes just don't run the play with the proper timing/spacing/etc. A lot of her shots are late in the shot clock because of these mistakes, so she is taking shots to avoid a 30 second call, but here IMO is where a lot of her improvement areas are. - She needs to get much more comfortable attacking with her left hand. If she could reject the screen at times, and attack with her left hand that could open up some space.
- TVO does have nice passing vision, but she should look to attack more with an eye on creation, instead of scoring. This could be made much easier if she's playing with Adlee or Lily as shooters, or AJ who can attack off of a closeout.
- To expand on the creation aspect, especially in P&R with Timea or Reagan, look to extend her dribble out, to get a better passing angle into the big as they post up.
4. I've seen lots of stories on TVO being the team leader, as well as being considered the most competitive person on the team. I am sure that her personal struggles are really taking a toll. I hope the coaching staff and fans can do their best to really breathe confidence into these young women. TVO is a wonderful player and I enjoy watching her. As bad as the Colorado game was, I think there is good stuff coming, as long as the team doesn't let go of the rope.
Go Beavs An excellent post! I believe all Beaver fans think the world of TVO and wish her nothing but success. However, it is certainly perplexing to see how badly things have gone for her this year during PAC 12 play.
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Post by grayman on Feb 6, 2023 11:18:30 GMT -8
I said this in another thread but...TVO made a big splash right away and a lot of fans bought into this idea that she was OSU's next superstar, an elite player who would have the ability to take over games and pull OSU along for win after win. Last year, the truth was far more evident when it was brutally obvious she could not play point guard. She lacks high-end quickness and ballhandling skills. Her passing is too often sloppy. She is a good shooter and more suited to play the 2. However, she does not have a physical advantage over opposing guards. Personally, I believe she's closer to 5-10 than 5-11, making her more of a tweener. She is not overly agile for a guard and can't create her own shot unless she uses strength to power her way to the basket. Opposing teams have figured all of this out (even if some OSU fans haven't). Teams like Colorado can just D up on her and she falls apart. You cut off the path to the basket and get in her face on the perimeter and she's much more inclined to just put up bad shots. Without a good point guard on the team, TVO just isn't nearly as effective as she can be. Let's not forget that she scored 17 against Utah just a couple days ago. Not every team is going to be able to defend her like Colorado. Yes, she can shoot and rebound and get some assists (also commits a lot of turnovers) and is a solid defender most of the time. But let's stop with the ideas that TVO is an elite player. And it's not the sophomore slump...if that were to have happened it would have been the latter part of last season.
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Post by skyrider on Feb 6, 2023 11:38:41 GMT -8
I said this in another thread but...TVO made a big splash right away and a lot of fans bought into this idea that she was OSU's next superstar, an elite player who would have the ability to take over games and pull OSU along for win after win. Last year, the truth was far more evident when it was brutally obvious she could not play point guard. She lacks high-end quickness and ballhandling skills. Her passing is too often sloppy. She is a good shooter and more suited to play the 2. However, she does not have a physical advantage over opposing guards. Personally, I believe she's closer to 5-10 than 5-11, making her more of a tweener. She is not overly agile for a guard and can't create her own shot unless she uses strength to power her way to the basket. Opposing teams have figured all of this out (even if some OSU fans haven't). Teams like Colorado can just D up on her and she falls apart. You cut off the path to the basket and get in her face on the perimeter and she's much more inclined to just put up bad shots. Without a good point guard on the team, TVO just isn't nearly as effective as she can be. Let's not forget that she scored 17 against Utah just a couple days ago. Not every team is going to be able to defend her like Colorado. Yes, she can shoot and rebound and get some assists (also commits a lot of turnovers) and is a solid defender most of the time. But let's stop with the ideas that TVO is an elite player. And it's not the sophomore slump...if that were to have happened it would have been the latter part of last season. grayman,
I wish I did not have to agree with your conclusions because I like so many things about her character wise, competitive spirit, etc..
However I think you are correct which leads to my feeling even more gloomy about the immediate and future prospects for the team's success.
Sometime reality sucks!
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Post by grayman on Feb 6, 2023 12:05:31 GMT -8
I said this in another thread but...TVO made a big splash right away and a lot of fans bought into this idea that she was OSU's next superstar, an elite player who would have the ability to take over games and pull OSU along for win after win. Last year, the truth was far more evident when it was brutally obvious she could not play point guard. She lacks high-end quickness and ballhandling skills. Her passing is too often sloppy. She is a good shooter and more suited to play the 2. However, she does not have a physical advantage over opposing guards. Personally, I believe she's closer to 5-10 than 5-11, making her more of a tweener. She is not overly agile for a guard and can't create her own shot unless she uses strength to power her way to the basket. Opposing teams have figured all of this out (even if some OSU fans haven't). Teams like Colorado can just D up on her and she falls apart. You cut off the path to the basket and get in her face on the perimeter and she's much more inclined to just put up bad shots. Without a good point guard on the team, TVO just isn't nearly as effective as she can be. Let's not forget that she scored 17 against Utah just a couple days ago. Not every team is going to be able to defend her like Colorado. Yes, she can shoot and rebound and get some assists (also commits a lot of turnovers) and is a solid defender most of the time. But let's stop with the ideas that TVO is an elite player. And it's not the sophomore slump...if that were to have happened it would have been the latter part of last season. grayman,
I wish I did not have to agree with your conclusions because I like so many things about her character wise, competitive spirit, etc..
However I think you are correct which leads to my feeling even more gloomy about the immediate and future prospects for the team's success.
Sometime reality sucks!
I wouldn't get too down about it. She's a good player. Her shooting will return. But the Beavers really, really, really need a point guard.
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Post by skyrider on Feb 6, 2023 12:26:06 GMT -8
grayman,
I wish I did not have to agree with your conclusions because I like so many things about her character wise, competitive spirit, etc..
However I think you are correct which leads to my feeling even more gloomy about the immediate and future prospects for the team's success.
Sometime reality sucks!
I wouldn't get too down about it. She's a good player. Her shooting will return. But the Beavers really, really, really need a point guard. Unfortunately the person(SR) who needs to heed your excellent council about a point guard, is the person who does not seem to be able or willing to do anything about! Nor does he even seem to acknowledge that the problem exists!
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Post by beaverstever on Feb 6, 2023 12:56:26 GMT -8
She's been largely solved by the Pac-12 defenses; her strengths have been taken away, and she hasn't been able to neutralize her weaknesses. It will be up to her to solve these in her off-season by building a lot more into her offensive repertoire. You seen NBA players do this all the time when their speed advantage declines as they age; they build crafty alternatives that keep them effective (or they disappear from the league).
TvO has two big strengths; deep range and physicality at the basket. Her range has been neutralized by not leaving her open, and she hasn't developed an effective step-back to compensate (very hard to do, although it's something she has worked on). Her advantage at the basket is neutralized by double-teams, and her teammates haven't found a way to make opponents pay. I thought we'd see her back down and post-up guards, it's not really happening. I think she's too impatient - too often this results in fade-away 10 footers that is not a consistent shot for her. She should be able to Larry Bird/Dirk N anybody in the league as far out as the elbow with that move shoulder in/fade-out more, but she just doesn't have it down to a consistent shot (actually misses it most of the time, and seems to really shoot it flat).
If you watch Pili, she has lots of limitations, and her repertoire was somewhat neutralized by Mit vulturing over her, despite Pili being so much quicker. But I think Pili is a pretty good example of a player with a lot of limitations figuring out how to be consistent.
The biggest problem with this team is NOBODY is even remotely consistent game-to-game. That was true last year once Jones went down. Really, Jones is the only player you could count on for similar offensive stats game-to-game. Timea looks like she will get there, and I thought Reagan would be that type of player, but she gets solved by some teams as well. TvO was expected to be the most consistent offensive threat on this year's team, and she doesn't have enough of a variety of consistent scoring moves to make that happen. I know she wants to be that player, and so hopefully that's what she brings to the game next season. Aleah did exactly that between her Jr and Sr. year - Aleah could be solved her jr year, but she brought a lot more to the table her senior year and she really elevated her game. She was never out-quicking Pac-12 defenses, but the game really slowed down for her and she picked her weapons very well.
Bottom line, I absolutely believe TvO can be a first-tieam level player with her abilities, but she has to hone her craft a lot more to get there.
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Post by grayman on Feb 6, 2023 12:57:21 GMT -8
I wouldn't get too down about it. She's a good player. Her shooting will return. But the Beavers really, really, really need a point guard. Unfortunately the person(SR) who needs to heed your excellent council about a point guard, is the person who does not seem to be able or willing to do anything about! Nor does he even seem to acknowledge that the problem exists!
I think he's willing. Not sure about able. He did try to patch it up with Tea Adams and Emily Codding last year and Yeaney and Pietsch this season. He's bringing in a true freshman (Kennedie Shuler) at the spot for next season and some have said that Donovyn Hunter might be able to play PG as well. Not sure if he will be able to add one through the portal or if he'll even try.
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Post by lotrader on Feb 6, 2023 13:03:12 GMT -8
Assuming Martha is with OSU next season, we should have 3 with PG skills. Although our 2 incoming High Schoolers will have never experienced the pressure of PAC-12 caliber defenders, and it will take time for them to adjust.
Remember, Martha played on the German National Team, and did have experience against high caliber defenders. I watched many of Martha's games over the summer, and saw someone who could handle the ball pressure in the WCBB game.
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Post by hoopheritic on Feb 6, 2023 13:03:58 GMT -8
I said this in another thread but...TVO made a big splash right away and a lot of fans bought into this idea that she was OSU's next superstar, an elite player who would have the ability to take over games and pull OSU along for win after win. Last year, the truth was far more evident when it was brutally obvious she could not play point guard. She lacks high-end quickness and ballhandling skills. Her passing is too often sloppy. She is a good shooter and more suited to play the 2. However, she does not have a physical advantage over opposing guards. Personally, I believe she's closer to 5-10 than 5-11, making her more of a tweener. She is not overly agile for a guard and can't create her own shot unless she uses strength to power her way to the basket. Opposing teams have figured all of this out (even if some OSU fans haven't). Teams like Colorado can just D up on her and she falls apart. You cut off the path to the basket and get in her face on the perimeter and she's much more inclined to just put up bad shots. Without a good point guard on the team, TVO just isn't nearly as effective as she can be. Let's not forget that she scored 17 against Utah just a couple days ago. Not every team is going to be able to defend her like Colorado. Yes, she can shoot and rebound and get some assists (also commits a lot of turnovers) and is a solid defender most of the time. But let's stop with the ideas that TVO is an elite player. And it's not the sophomore slump...if that were to have happened it would have been the latter part of last season. All good stuff. I've been saying it since summer, when it all shakes out this year TVO will not be the best player on this team, and that's ok. The sooner she and the rest of the team come to terms with that the sooner they can turn this corner.
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Post by grayman on Feb 6, 2023 13:19:03 GMT -8
She's been largely solved by the Pac-12 defenses; her strengths have been taken away, and she hasn't been able to neutralize her weaknesses. It will be up to her to solve these in her off-season by building a lot more into her offensive repertoire. You seen NBA players do this all the time when their speed advantage declines as they age; they build crafty alternatives that keep them effective (or they disappear from the league). TvO has two big strengths; deep range and physicality at the basket. Her range has been neutralized by not leaving her open, and she hasn't developed an effective step-back to compensate (very hard to do, although it's something she has worked on). Her advantage at the basket is neutralized by double-teams, and her teammates haven't found a way to make opponents pay. I thought we'd see her back down and post-up guards, it's not really happening. I think she's too impatient - too often this results in fade-away 10 footers that is not a consistent shot for her. She should be able to Larry Bird/Dirk N anybody in the league as far out as the elbow with that move shoulder in/fade-out more, but she just doesn't have it down to a consistent shot (actually misses it most of the time, and seems to really shoot it flat). If you watch Pili, she has lots of limitations, and her repertoire was somewhat neutralized by Mit vulturing over her, despite Pili being so much quicker. But I think Pili is a pretty good example of a player with a lot of limitations figuring out how to be consistent. The biggest problem with this team is NOBODY is even remotely consistent game-to-game. That was true last year once Jones went down. Really, Jones is the only player you could count on for similar offensive stats game-to-game. Timea looks like she will get there, and I thought Reagan would be that type of player, but she gets solved by some teams as well. TvO was expected to be the most consistent offensive threat on this year's team, and she doesn't have enough of a variety of consistent scoring moves to make that happen. I know she wants to be that player, and so hopefully that's what she brings to the game next season. Aleah did exactly that between her Jr and Sr. year - Aleah could be solved her jr year, but she brought a lot more to the table her senior year and she really elevated her game. She was never out-quicking Pac-12 defenses, but the game really slowed down for her and she picked her weapons very well. Bottom line, I absolutely believe TvO can be a first-tieam level player with her abilities, but she has to hone her craft a lot more to get there. Pretty much agree on everything you said about TVO. She's already been all-Pac-12. But she's not necessarily a volume scorer. She's more of a well-rounded player with great shooting range but not great athletic ability when it comes to basketball. She's good. She's not elite. The lack of consistency on OSU speaks to a lack of a true point guard who is a Pac-12 level starter, along with the overall youth of the team. Rueck probably isn't making it any easier for them either, but that's a different subject. Pili is only listed at 6-2. But she's great because she has a great skill set around the basket but has range all the way out to the 3-point line. She leads the Pac-12 in scoring with 20.86 points a game and in percentage at 607 and actually leads the Utes in steals with 25. She actually was scoring against Mit early. Mit's play got a lot better in the second half. Beers actually played very well against her but once again got into foul issues.
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Post by bvrblvr on Feb 6, 2023 14:07:07 GMT -8
Lots of good opinions here.
I wonder would any of the 8 players above her in conference scoring average keep their numbers if there was a direct swap?
I'd say Pili (but maybe not cause teams would just double and triple team her in the post like they're doing to Beers now), Skinner (mostly cause she shoots 17 times a game), and Osborne probably would.
The others would probably suffer the same frustration TVO is now. There just isn't much help from the rest of the roster to take darn near the entire attention of the other team off her.
I don't envy her position. Imagine if she could just move around freely without the ball and there was someone that could find her spotting up. If she were to hit a couple then she'd look a lot quicker too - cause as her defender rotates to her to defend the jump shot, she could start driving.
Currently there's someone in her front pocket nearly constantly with or without the ball (cause they're not too worried about most of the other Beavers having the ball).
If I did have a constructive criticism - when she doesn't have the ball she doesn't exactly do a lot of running away from the ball opposite side and then working her way back towards it using picks and such. She generally just steps away one side or the other and waits to get it back.
Both men's and women's team do A LOT of dribbling this year rather than passing. Kind of making it easier for other teams to guard them.
What do I know? Just my observations.
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Post by skyrider on Feb 6, 2023 14:31:54 GMT -8
Both men's and women's team do A LOT of dribbling this year rather than passing. Kind of making it easier for other teams to guard them. What do I know? Just my observations. bvrblvr,
In reference to your very astute comment above. Watch the Golden State Warriors in their NBA games. These are some of the most skilled individuals in the world at their trade. Clearly if anyone could be expected to dribble around a lot and mostly do one on one moves they would be the ones.
Yet they are constantly passing the ball more than dribbling and their is constant screening/cutting/movement away from the ball/etc./etc.
Why the OSU teams men and women with far, far less talent do not do the same on offense is beyond my comprehension!
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Post by grayman on Feb 6, 2023 14:46:19 GMT -8
Lots of good opinions here. I wonder would any of the 8 players above her in conference scoring average keep their numbers if there was a direct swap? I'd say Pili (but maybe not cause teams would just double and triple team her in the post like they're doing to Beers now), Skinner (mostly cause she shoots 17 times a game), and Osborne probably would. The others would probably suffer the same frustration TVO is now. There just isn't much help from the rest of the roster to take darn near the entire attention of the other team off her. I don't envy her position. Imagine if she could just move around freely without the ball and there was someone that could find her spotting up. If she were to hit a couple then she'd look a lot quicker too - cause as her defender rotates to her to defend the jump shot, she could start driving. Currently there's someone in her front pocket nearly constantly with or without the ball (cause they're not too worried about most of the other Beavers having the ball). If I did have a constructive criticism - when she doesn't have the ball she doesn't exactly do a lot of running away from the ball opposite side and then working her way back towards it using picks and such. She generally just steps away one side or the other and waits to get it back. Both men's and women's team do A LOT of dribbling this year rather than passing. Kind of making it easier for other teams to guard them. What do I know? Just my observations. Pili for sure but I'm going to stick with guards. Leger-Walker for sure (scoring almost 19 points a game in conference, is rebounding better than TVO in conference with 5.37 a game and is second in Pac-12 in assists with 4.63. Definitely would solve a lot of OSU's issues. Same with Endyia Rogers. Skinner and Osborne are probably better at creating their own shots. You could argue against Kneepkens but IMO she comes off screens better and just moves better than TVO. And she's a great 3-point shooter. I would take Haley Jones over her in a second although Jones doesn't score quite as much. She averages 9 rebounds a game and is fourth in the Pac-12 in assists. Maybe Jayda Curry just because she's so much quicker and can distribute the ball and score. Those are just some of the players off the scoring list. There are others I would consider over TVO. It would be interesting to see which teams in the Pac-12 would start TVO and which would bring her off the bench. I think a lot of OSU fans would be surprised.
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Post by rmancarl on Feb 6, 2023 15:00:03 GMT -8
Lots of good opinions here. I wonder would any of the 8 players above her in conference scoring average keep their numbers if there was a direct swap? I'd say Pili (but maybe not cause teams would just double and triple team her in the post like they're doing to Beers now), Skinner (mostly cause she shoots 17 times a game), and Osborne probably would. The others would probably suffer the same frustration TVO is now. There just isn't much help from the rest of the roster to take darn near the entire attention of the other team off her. I don't envy her position. Imagine if she could just move around freely without the ball and there was someone that could find her spotting up. If she were to hit a couple then she'd look a lot quicker too - cause as her defender rotates to her to defend the jump shot, she could start driving. Currently there's someone in her front pocket nearly constantly with or without the ball (cause they're not too worried about most of the other Beavers having the ball). If I did have a constructive criticism - when she doesn't have the ball she doesn't exactly do a lot of running away from the ball opposite side and then working her way back towards it using picks and such. She generally just steps away one side or the other and waits to get it back. Both men's and women's team do A LOT of dribbling this year rather than passing. Kind of making it easier for other teams to guard them. What do I know? Just my observations. You know more than you think you know. I appreciate the real insight and understanding. Best in this thread.
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