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Post by jefframp on Jan 18, 2023 8:34:33 GMT -8
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Post by Werebeaver on Jan 18, 2023 10:47:27 GMT -8
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Post by spudbeaver on Jan 18, 2023 12:46:42 GMT -8
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Post by irimi on Jan 18, 2023 15:27:42 GMT -8
Last year at about this time, I tried to learn some Vietnamese just so that I could better predict the pronunciation of student names. Granted, I didn't put a lot of effort/time into it, but I found it very, very difficult. It's funny because in English spelling is so haphazard. Think of all the different ways we pronounce the letter <t>....mountain, water, congratulations....Yet when my students told me that the letter <d> in Vietnamese can be pronounced in two different ways, I gave up. Thank god I didn't have to learn English as a foreign or second language.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Jan 18, 2023 16:34:42 GMT -8
Last year at about this time, I tried to learn some Vietnamese just so that I could better predict the pronunciation of student names. Granted, I didn't put a lot of effort/time into it, but I found it very, very difficult. It's funny because in English spelling is so haphazard. T hink of all the different ways we pronounce the letter <t>....mountain, water, congratulations....Yet when my students told me that the letter <d> in Vietnamese can be pronounced in two different ways, I gave up. Thank god I didn't have to learn English as a foreign or second language. I get congratulations. But how do you pronounce mountain and water? The "t" should be the same pronunciation in both.
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Post by irimi on Jan 18, 2023 16:57:38 GMT -8
Last year at about this time, I tried to learn some Vietnamese just so that I could better predict the pronunciation of student names. Granted, I didn't put a lot of effort/time into it, but I found it very, very difficult. It's funny because in English spelling is so haphazard. T hink of all the different ways we pronounce the letter <t>....mountain, water, congratulations....Yet when my students told me that the letter <d> in Vietnamese can be pronounced in two different ways, I gave up. Thank god I didn't have to learn English as a foreign or second language. I get congratulations. But how do you pronounce mountain and water? The "t" should be the same pronunciation in both. In North America, the <t> in words like "water" and across words will become a flap. This is pronounced much more like rapid /d/ sound. It happens when a vowel sound precedes and follows the <t>. For the word "mountain," we will often use a glottal stop in place of the /t/. This might be more obvious in the word "cotton." You wrote that it should be pronounced in both words. I would argue that it is pronounced, but not in the way you expect. If you argue that is should sound like the /t/ sound, then I'd say that this doesn't reflect reality and hints of elitism. But some actors, newscasters, and the like are trained to articulate their /t/ more clearly. But it's always interesting to hear someone pronounce the <t> in "water" clearly but miss the <t> across word boundaries like "at all" or "a lot of."
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Jan 18, 2023 17:11:11 GMT -8
I get congratulations. But how do you pronounce mountain and water? The "t" should be the same pronunciation in both. In North America, the <t> in words like "water" and across words will become a flap. This is pronounced much more like rapid /d/ sound. It happens when a vowel sound precedes and follows the <t>. For the word "mountain," we will often use a glottal stop in place of the /t/. This might be more obvious in the word "cotton." You wrote that it should be pronounced in both words. I would argue that it is pronounced, but not in the way you expect. If you argue that is should sound like the /t/ sound, then I'd say that this doesn't reflect reality and hints of elitism. But some actors, newscasters, and the like are trained to articulate their /t/ more clearly. But it's always interesting to hear someone pronounce the <t> in "water" clearly but miss the <t> across word boundaries like "at all" or "a lot of." You are correct that you fall into the "d" sound in water. If you give it a full "t" sound, it falls into a different accent. I was trying to figure out what you were getting at. This whole conversation hints of elitism. But the fact that we have energy and internet capable of carrying on the conversation in the first place smacks of elitism, so we might as well keep falling down the rabbit-hole.
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Post by Werebeaver on Jan 18, 2023 18:58:35 GMT -8
Last year at about this time, I tried to learn some Vietnamese just so that I could better predict the pronunciation of student names. Granted, I didn't put a lot of effort/time into it, but I found it very, very difficult. It's funny because in English spelling is so haphazard. T hink of all the different ways we pronounce the letter <t>....mountain, water, congratulations....Yet when my students told me that the letter <d> in Vietnamese can be pronounced in two different ways, I gave up. Thank god I didn't have to learn English as a foreign or second language. I get congratulations. But how do you pronounce mountain and water? The "t" should be the same pronunciation in both.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Jan 18, 2023 20:51:45 GMT -8
I know that this is meant to be silly. But this is awful news! Any committee, department, "ministry" named Public Safety/Security is never a good thing and almost always is antithetical to public safety/security. Hopefully, things work out well for the Vietnamese.
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Post by Werebeaver on Jan 18, 2023 21:02:50 GMT -8
I know that this is meant to be silly. But this is awful news! Any committee, department, "ministry" named Public Safety/Security is never a good thing and almost always is antithetical to public safety/security. Hopefully, things work out well for the Vietnamese. RIP President Phuc
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Post by seastape on Jan 18, 2023 22:27:37 GMT -8
Last year at about this time, I tried to learn some Vietnamese just so that I could better predict the pronunciation of student names. Granted, I didn't put a lot of effort/time into it, but I found it very, very difficult. It's funny because in English spelling is so haphazard. Think of all the different ways we pronounce the letter <t>....mountain, water, congratulations....Yet when my students told me that the letter <d> in Vietnamese can be pronounced in two different ways, I gave up. Thank god I didn't have to learn English as a foreign or second language. On the first day of my first year of Spanish as a freshman in high school, my teacher said that Spanish is easy to learn because it is always spelled like it sounds. English on the other hand... Then he asked us how to pronounce "ghoti." goatee? goatai? No, that is pronounced "fish." tou gh, w omen, and na tion. You're right. English can be daunting to new speakers.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Jan 19, 2023 14:32:38 GMT -8
Last year at about this time, I tried to learn some Vietnamese just so that I could better predict the pronunciation of student names. Granted, I didn't put a lot of effort/time into it, but I found it very, very difficult. It's funny because in English spelling is so haphazard. Think of all the different ways we pronounce the letter <t>....mountain, water, congratulations....Yet when my students told me that the letter <d> in Vietnamese can be pronounced in two different ways, I gave up. Thank god I didn't have to learn English as a foreign or second language. On the first day of my first year of Spanish as a freshman in high school, my teacher said that Spanish is easy to learn because it is always spelled like it sounds. English on the other hand... Then he asked us how to pronounce "ghoti." goatee? goatai? No, that is pronounced "fish." tou gh, w omen, and na tion. You're right. English can be daunting to new speakers. Lol. Pronounce Mexico en español. Excuse the diatribe. The "gh" in "tough" is mispronounced. It is supposed to be the "h" sound in the Scottish word "loch," but English got rid of that pronunciation at some point. No one really knows why it becomes the "f" sound. However, it is never pronounced "f" at the beginning of a word, so your teacher is full of it off the bat. It is only pronounced "f," if it follows an "au" or "ou." "ti" should be pronounced "tea," but the French messed it up, so it is pronounced "sh" in English words, which were originally Latin that the French messed up. However, "ti" never makes an "sh" sound, unless it is immediately followed by a vowel, so once again your teacher's critique of English shows a thorough lack of understanding of the English language. You're last sentence is your best. English is difficult. But it is not as difficult as the "ghoti" strawman that is often used. Among Western European languages, English is probably the hardest for pronunciation of words, based upon spelling. However, once mastered, you can speak English faster than a bunch of other languages. Further, English does not have gendered noun class distinctions, unlike pretty much every other Western European language. Further English only has 26 letters, unlike the 27 in Spanish and the five accented vowels on top of that. German has thirty letters, when you include the ß and the three umlauted vowels. And the vowels can each be capitalized in both languages, as can the "Ñ" in Spanish. English is a melting pot language. It incorporates a lot of words from several languages, which makes some of it easier to understand in other languages but more difficult in the rest. Almost any language can be daunting to non-speakers. But I wouldn't say that English is any more difficult than any other Western European, Cyrillic, or East Asian language. Diatribe concludes.
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Post by seastape on Jan 19, 2023 23:37:23 GMT -8
On the first day of my first year of Spanish as a freshman in high school, my teacher said that Spanish is easy to learn because it is always spelled like it sounds. English on the other hand... Then he asked us how to pronounce "ghoti." goatee? goatai? No, that is pronounced "fish." tou gh, w omen, and na tion. You're right. English can be daunting to new speakers. Lol. Pronounce Mexico en español. Excuse the diatribe. The "gh" in "tough" is mispronounced. It is supposed to be the "h" sound in the Scottish word "loch," but English got rid of that pronunciation at some point. No one really knows why it becomes the "f" sound. However, it is never pronounced "f" at the beginning of a word, so your teacher is full of it off the bat. It is only pronounced "f," if it follows an "au" or "ou." "ti" should be pronounced "tea," but the French messed it up, so it is pronounced "sh" in English words, which were originally Latin that the French messed up. However, "ti" never makes an "sh" sound, unless it is immediately followed by a vowel, so once again your teacher's critique of English shows a thorough lack of understanding of the English language. You're last sentence is your best. English is difficult. But it is not as difficult as the "ghoti" strawman that is often used. Among Western European languages, English is probably the hardest for pronunciation of words, based upon spelling. However, once mastered, you can speak English faster than a bunch of other languages. Further, English does not have gendered noun class distinctions, unlike pretty much every other Western European language. Further English only has 26 letters, unlike the 27 in Spanish and the five accented vowels on top of that. German has thirty letters, when you include the ß and the three umlauted vowels. And the vowels can each be capitalized in both languages, as can the "Ñ" in Spanish. English is a melting pot language. It incorporates a lot of words from several languages, which makes some of it easier to understand in other languages but more difficult in the rest. Almost any language can be daunting to non-speakers. But I wouldn't say that English is any more difficult than any other Western European, Cyrillic, or East Asian language. Diatribe concludes. Diatribe is right. I don't know why you're so bent out of shape that my teacher merely used an educational tool to illustrate the far-ranging rules of English, but whatever. Diatribe away, even if you are inaccurate to a great degree and far more full of it than Mr. Tovey ever was. The tool he used, "ghoti" as "fish," has been used by many people over many years to demonstrate that English has either a lot of exceptions to its pronunciation rules or a lot more pronunciation rules than most western European languages. Mr. Tovey was one of those people who used the tool. You seem to take it as an attack on something. Oddly enough, you use his use of the tool as evidence that he "is full of it off the bat" and has "a lack of understanding of the English language" and yet only two lines later you admit that, "Among Western European languages, English is probably the hardest for pronunciation of words, based upon spelling," which was my teacher's (and my) whole point! So why the need for a diatribe? You assert that the modern pronunciations of "gh" as "f" and "ti" as "sh" are mispronunciations because some time ago they were pronounced differently than their modern usage. Wrong. That the modern pronunciations would be mispronunciations some unknown time ago has no relevance today except as an illustration of the evolution of the English language. Today, in modern English, "gh" often has the sound of an "f" and "ti" often has the sound of "sh," simple as that. Furthermore, the fact that my Spanish teacher, whose first language is American-English, used "gh" at the beginning of a non-word to illustrate the "f" sound that those two letters often make when placed together does not make him "full of it off the bat." The use of "gh" instead of the commonly used "ph" for the "f" sound at the beginning of ghoti is to accentuate the point that the rules of English really do tend to wander. Why have tough and photograph when you can have touph and photogragh? Why not have both end in one or the other? Nor does the fact that my Spanish teacher didn't mention the English rule that "ti" is only pronounced "sh" when followed by a vowel show "a lack of understanding of the English language." You also didn't mention that "gh" can be silent after following "au" or "ou" in your post. So what. The point is not to have an in-depth discussion of the various ways that "ti" of "gh" can be pronounced according to the rules of English. The point is to illustrate that the pronunciation of English words, based on their spelling, is often not intuitive, a point which you admit. You started with the point that the "x" in "Mexico" as hard evidence that Spanish is also loose with the rules. Of course there are exceptions in Spanish, but nowhere near the extent you see in English. But is the "x" in "Mexico" an exception? Not according to your rules. According to you, "ti" was pronounced "tea" some unknown number of years ago and "gh" was pronounced hard, Scottish "ch" some unknown number of years ago and because they were pronounced that way some unknown number of years ago, the modern pronunciations of "sh" and "f" are mispronunciations. You will be happy to know that during the 17th century, around the time when Spain and Portugal were turning the Americas into colonies and helping the natives see the Glory of God, the word “Mexico” was very likely derived from the name that the local natives used to describe the valley surrounding modern day Mexico City. Also at the time, the Spanish "x" was pronounced with a soft "j" sound in Spanish, like the name Javier. Thus, the “x” in “Mexico” is pronounced with as a soft Spanish “j,” like “Javier.” Ghoti as strawman. That's funny. If you think about it for a short amount of time, if "fish" had been spelled "ghoti" so many years ago, you wouldn't bat an eye at that being the spelling. Or maybe you wouldn't if it was spelled phish or phisch or phische or fishe.
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Post by irimi on Jan 20, 2023 12:11:52 GMT -8
On the first day of my first year of Spanish as a freshman in high school, my teacher said that Spanish is easy to learn because it is always spelled like it sounds. English on the other hand... Then he asked us how to pronounce "ghoti." goatee? goatai? No, that is pronounced "fish." tou gh, w omen, and na tion. You're right. English can be daunting to new speakers. Lol. Pronounce Mexico en español. Excuse the diatribe. The "gh" in "tough" is mispronounced. It is supposed to be the "h" sound in the Scottish word "loch," but English got rid of that pronunciation at some point. No one really knows why it becomes the "f" sound. However, it is never pronounced "f" at the beginning of a word, so your teacher is full of it off the bat. It is only pronounced "f," if it follows an "au" or "ou." "ti" should be pronounced "tea," but the French messed it up, so it is pronounced "sh" in English words, which were originally Latin that the French messed up. However, "ti" never makes an "sh" sound, unless it is immediately followed by a vowel, so once again your teacher's critique of English shows a thorough lack of understanding of the English language. You're last sentence is your best. English is difficult. But it is not as difficult as the "ghoti" strawman that is often used. Among Western European languages, English is probably the hardest for pronunciation of words, based upon spelling. However, once mastered, you can speak English faster than a bunch of other languages. Further, English does not have gendered noun class distinctions, unlike pretty much every other Western European language. Further English only has 26 letters, unlike the 27 in Spanish and the five accented vowels on top of that. German has thirty letters, when you include the ß and the three umlauted vowels. And the vowels can each be capitalized in both languages, as can the "Ñ" in Spanish. English is a melting pot language. It incorporates a lot of words from several languages, which makes some of it easier to understand in other languages but more difficult in the rest.Almost any language can be daunting to non-speakers. But I wouldn't say that English is any more difficult than any other Western European, Cyrillic, or East Asian language. Diatribe concludes. True, but in incorporating these words, we bastardize them with our own willy-nilly pronunciations. Listening to people talk about karaoke or sake grates on my ears. So the odds of it being understood in Japan drop pretty far, for example. Though I don't know for sure, I think we do the same with other imported words. As a language teacher, I hate hearing that this language or that language is more difficult. It really depends on the proximity of your native language to the target language. English is very unlike most Asian languages, so for them to reach a level of competence in it requires a lot of study time. The reverse is true as well. But for a Spanish speaker or a French speaker, English is similar in syntax and grammar. Yes, the rules for phonetics are different, but other aspects of the language make it an easy language to learn. An example, Japanese is really simple to pronounce. There are a couple of difficult parts, but mostly a person can speak Japanese rather quickly. The grammar, though significantly different, isn't so bizarre once you put a little time in. But there are levels of politeness that are important in a high context society and since we don't really have such a thing, they can be very challenging. Reading is also more difficult than, say, Chinese. In Chinese, the characters they use have one way of being read. But since Japan imported the characters from China, each character has at least two readings: the original Chinese sound or the Japanese sound. Every language has its challenges. Enjoy the challenge.
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