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Post by beavaristotle on Nov 21, 2022 9:45:07 GMT -8
Maybe the hall of pretty good or the hall of what could have been
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Post by Henry Skrimshander on Nov 21, 2022 13:51:52 GMT -8
The hall of hurt all the time, for darn sure.
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Post by 86BEAVER on Nov 21, 2022 14:58:39 GMT -8
Probably not 1st ballot, I'm guessing.
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Post by ricke71 on Nov 21, 2022 16:03:50 GMT -8
Maybe the hall of pretty good or the hall of what could have been Possibly not a HOF 'could have been'....But surely a 2011 AL MVP woulda / coulda / shoulda been (Jacoby finished 2nd to Verlander - who interestingly was born in 1983, same as Jacoby Ellsbury). "...the 2011 Red Sox starting rotation. The top three pitchers - the leaders on the field, the ones who were supposed to set the attitude for everyone in the clubhouse - distanced themselves from their teammates, slacked off, and did not pull their weight at crucial moments.
During games when they were not scheduled to pitch, Josh Beckett, Jon Lester, and John Lackey were not in the dugout with the rest of their teammates. Instead, they reportedly sat in the clubhouse, played video games, ate fast-food fried chicken and drank beer. This was technically allowed under team rules, but it certainly violated an ungodly number of baseball’s unwritten rules.
This habit was reflected in both their weight gain and their results late in the season. Across September, the three combined for a 2-7 record and a 6.45 ERA."imho - Had Red Sox won the division, Ellsbury very likely would have won the AL MVP for 2011. |
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Nov 21, 2022 16:12:01 GMT -8
Maybe the hall of pretty good or the hall of what could have been Possibly not a HOF 'could have been'....But surely a 2011 AL MVP woulda / coulda / shoulda been (Jacoby finished 2nd to Verlander - who interestingly was born in 1983, same as Jacoby Ellsbury). "...the 2011 Red Sox starting rotation. The top three pitchers - the leaders on the field, the ones who were supposed to set the attitude for everyone in the clubhouse - distanced themselves from their teammates, slacked off, and did not pull their weight at crucial moments.
During games when they were not scheduled to pitch, Josh Beckett, Jon Lester, and John Lackey were not in the dugout with the rest of their teammates. Instead, they reportedly sat in the clubhouse, played video games, ate fast-food fried chicken and drank beer. This was technically allowed under team rules, but it certainly violated an ungodly number of baseball’s unwritten rules.
This habit was reflected in both their weight gain and their results late in the season. Across September, the three combined for a 2-7 record and a 6.45 ERA."imho - Had Red Sox won the division, Ellsbury very likely would have won the AL MVP for 2011. Pitchers rarely deserve an MVP award. They have the Cy Young. There is no offensive analog. |
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Post by ricke71 on Nov 21, 2022 16:18:31 GMT -8
Possibly not a HOF 'could have been'....But surely a 2011 AL MVP woulda / coulda / shoulda been (Jacoby finished 2nd to Verlander - who interestingly was born in 1983, same as Jacoby Ellsbury). "...the 2011 Red Sox starting rotation. The top three pitchers - the leaders on the field, the ones who were supposed to set the attitude for everyone in the clubhouse - distanced themselves from their teammates, slacked off, and did not pull their weight at crucial moments.
During games when they were not scheduled to pitch, Josh Beckett, Jon Lester, and John Lackey were not in the dugout with the rest of their teammates. Instead, they reportedly sat in the clubhouse, played video games, ate fast-food fried chicken and drank beer. This was technically allowed under team rules, but it certainly violated an ungodly number of baseball’s unwritten rules.
This habit was reflected in both their weight gain and their results late in the season. Across September, the three combined for a 2-7 record and a 6.45 ERA."imho - Had Red Sox won the division, Ellsbury very likely would have won the AL MVP for 2011. Pitchers rarely deserve an MVP award. They have the Cy Young. There is no offensive analog. 95% agreed. On the other hand, Verlander was an insane 24-5, with a .920 WHIP. It's just too bad that Jacoby didn't get the post-season exposure that season...he was definitely the best position player in the AL at that point in his career. |
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Post by lebaneaver on Nov 21, 2022 16:43:10 GMT -8
This one SURPRISED me. Great player. Always hurt. I wish ALL Beavs well. Is this deserved? Opinions only. 😁😉
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Post by Henry Skrimshander on Nov 21, 2022 20:17:51 GMT -8
Pitchers rarely deserve an MVP award. They have the Cy Young. There is no offensive analog. 95% agreed. On the other hand, Verlander was an insane 24-5, with a .920 WHIP. It's just too bad that Jacoby didn't get the post-season exposure that season...he was definitely the best position player in the AL at that point in his career. So he had a decisive role in 29 of the team's 162 games. Pitchers are part-time players. They should never win the MVP. Don't feel too bad for Jacoby. He parlayed that season into a $150+ million contract. |
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Post by ag87 on Nov 22, 2022 4:06:28 GMT -8
Disagree on pitchers. Agree regarding Ells. Say in his big year he hit 290 with 15 hrs. That 7 year at $20M/year deal would have been 5 years @ $10M/year.
For starting pitchers just look at how they did compared to a replacement level starter. If the BoSox brought in their top starter from Providence he may have gone 9-13. If so, Verlander was worth about 15 wins. Was Ellsbury worth 15 wins over his replacement? Not sure but probably not.
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Post by Henry Skrimshander on Nov 22, 2022 7:54:36 GMT -8
Verlander pitched for Detroit that year, and had an 8.6 WAR. Jacoby had an 8.3 WAR. So they were essentially equal. And Jacoby played in 158 games, while Verlander played in 34. If two players have an equal WAR, and one plays 124 more games than the other, he's more valuable to his team.
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Post by joecool on Nov 22, 2022 8:01:45 GMT -8
Verlander pitched for Detroit that year, and had an 8.6 WAR. Jacoby had an 8.3 WAR. So they were essentially equal. And Jacoby played in 158 games, while Verlander played in 34. If two players have an equal WAR, and one plays 124 more games than the other, he's more valuable to his team. To further this point and to silence the people that think pitchers dont deserve MVP consideration. Verlander faced 969 batters in 2011, Ellsbury led the league with 732 plate appearances. |
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Post by Henry Skrimshander on Nov 22, 2022 8:58:20 GMT -8
Verlander pitched for Detroit that year, and had an 8.6 WAR. Jacoby had an 8.3 WAR. So they were essentially equal. And Jacoby played in 158 games, while Verlander played in 34. If two players have an equal WAR, and one plays 124 more games than the other, he's more valuable to his team. To further this point and to silence the people that think pitchers dont deserve MVP consideration. Verlander faced 969 batters in 2011, Ellsbury led the league with 732 plate appearances. So plate appearances are the only time Ellsbury was on the field? He didn't contribute with his defense, potentially on every single opposition at-bat? He didn't contribute with his baserunning, when teammates were at-bat? Ellsbury was on the field almost FIVE TIMES as much as Verlander was. That stat is absolutely meaningless. |
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Post by kersting13 on Nov 23, 2022 10:31:32 GMT -8
Verlander pitched for Detroit that year, and had an 8.6 WAR. Jacoby had an 8.3 WAR. So they were essentially equal. And Jacoby played in 158 games, while Verlander played in 34. If two players have an equal WAR, and one plays 124 more games than the other, he's more valuable to his team. This is EXACTLY the wrong interpretation. By the very definition of WAR an 8.6 WAR vs 8.3 WAR means Verlander was MORE valuable to his team. It's a counting stat like HRs and RBIs, doesn't matter if you compile it in 20 games or 120 games. It's rare for a pitcher to win MVP, and that's because you really have to be dominant to be more valuable to your team than an everyday player, but everyone knows that a starting pitcher has the MOST influence over the outcome of every game. |
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Post by Henry Skrimshander on Nov 23, 2022 11:41:32 GMT -8
Verlander pitched for Detroit that year, and had an 8.6 WAR. Jacoby had an 8.3 WAR. So they were essentially equal. And Jacoby played in 158 games, while Verlander played in 34. If two players have an equal WAR, and one plays 124 more games than the other, he's more valuable to his team. This is EXACTLY the wrong interpretation. By the very definition of WAR an 8.6 WAR vs 8.3 WAR means Verlander was MORE valuable to his team. It's a counting stat like HRs and RBIs, doesn't matter if you compile it in 20 games or 120 games. It's rare for a pitcher to win MVP, and that's because you really have to be dominant to be more valuable to your team than an everyday player, but everyone knows that a starting pitcher has the MOST influence over the outcome of every game. He was of minimal more value to his team (.3) than Ellsbury was to his. And he appeared on the field 124 fewer times, and often did not play a complete game when he did appear. A player with an 8.3 WAR who impacts all nine innings, offensively and defensively, in 158 games is more important than a player with an 8.6 who impacts 34 (often not the full 9 and never on offense) and DOES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the other 128 games. Jacoby had one of the greatest seasons ever for a leadoff hitter in the 21st century. Verlander won the Cy Young, as he should have. But there is no way he was the MVP. |
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Post by Judge Smails on Nov 23, 2022 11:46:26 GMT -8
This is EXACTLY the wrong interpretation. By the very definition of WAR an 8.6 WAR vs 8.3 WAR means Verlander was MORE valuable to his team. It's a counting stat like HRs and RBIs, doesn't matter if you compile it in 20 games or 120 games. It's rare for a pitcher to win MVP, and that's because you really have to be dominant to be more valuable to your team than an everyday player, but everyone knows that a starting pitcher has the MOST influence over the outcome of every game. He was of minimal more value to his team (.3) than Ellsbury was to his. And he appeared on the field 124 fewer times, and often did not play a complete game when he did appear. A player with an 8.3 WAR who impacts all nine innings, offensively and defensively, in 158 games is more important than a player with an 8.6 who impacts 34 (often not the full 9 and never on offense) and DOES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the other 128 games. Jacoby had one of the greatest seasons ever for a leadoff hitter in the 21st century. Verlander won the Cy Young, as he should have. But there is no way he was the MVP. Actually, he was. I saw them give him the trophy. Unless, you think it was faked like the moon landing. |
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