|
Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Feb 25, 2022 13:40:47 GMT -8
More worrisome and seemingly overlooked by many are the implied threats on both "sides". It began with using the tools of sanctions (then of course complicated by "everyone knew sanctions would not work", so here's some more!). Now far more troubling is first Putin and now NATO/France's Foreign Minister tossing out nuclear capabilities of each side. We're not worried about Russian sanctions against the West. The entire Russian economy is equivalent in size to Texas'. I'm not surprised that Russia is making nuclear threats. That is to be expected. Closer to New York than Texas. In reality, most of the United States' GDP is tied up in services, which do not translate well in a real world comparison. In real life, Russia's economy is much more similar to California's than Texas' economy. Having said that, where Russia's economy greatly diverges from California's is that Russia a net food importer. China is also a net food importer. If we really want to stop the invasion, just have Europe and the OAS countries turn off the food exports to Russia. It is still Winter. You cannot sustain an invasion and your citizens without food.
|
|
|
Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Feb 25, 2022 14:10:03 GMT -8
I doubt that Russia has the will to keep after Ukraine for more than a couple of months, especially considering the sanctions that are going to fall on Russia here. And Russia does not have the numbers of troops to completely subjugate a country as big and populous as Ukraine. What is unfortunate is that Belarus and Moldova appear to be working with the Russians. Hopefully, Ukraine can hold the line for long enough to take the air out of Russia's attack to force everyone to the table to end this thing. I wish that the European democracies were more committed to preserving European democracies against Putin. A lot of times, it is hard to differentiate the good country from the evil country, but it is obvious here. The good countries should all commit to save the good democratic country from the autocratic one. At the same time, the other countries need to make sure that Ukraine is in a position to defend itself moving forward, because the democratic countries cannot continuously bail out a country on Russia's border. I also wish that China would come out against Russia here. I doubt that it happens, but China can pretty much stop the invasion dead in its tracks, whenever it wants. But the United States cannot get that involved in this stage of the invasion for two reasons. The first is that, as much as I am pulling for Ukraine here, we cannot weaken our ability to assist more vital countries like Taiwan, especially as China grows ever more aggressive. Additionally, we cannot provide China and Russia (or anyone else) a pretext to start building up troops and/or military assets in Cuba, Nicaragua or Venezuela. (Or anywhere else in the Western Hemisphere for that matter.) For China or Russia to do that would be unacceptable. The same is true of the United States getting involved now. God bless Ukraine and the Ukrainian people in their fight with Russia! China is edging toward retaking Taiwan. They flew into Taiwan’s airspace just the other day, attempting to intimidate. Meanwhile they watch the West’s response to Ukraine. A few sanctions and cancelling sports events. (Everybody knows that sanctions end up hurting the common guy more than those with power.) And they can withstand that. Ukraine is lost. We should have done more beforehand. The question is whether Putin feels Ukraine is enough or if he will try to win back former USSR states. I’d like to see a large US presence in the East. Dissuade China by showing our resolve. I mean Putin invaded Chechnya, and we did nothing. Putin invaded Georgia, and we did nothing. Putin invaded the Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk, and we did nothing. Putin now invades the Ukraine. What is left for Putin to invade? He won't invade the Baltic States. Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland have already invoked Article 4 of NATO. Article 4 has only been invoked seven times in NATO's history. I think that a lot of this is to try and convince nations like Finland to not be so cozy with the West. You don't want to end up like Ukraine, do you Finland?
|
|
|
Post by irimi on Feb 25, 2022 14:39:17 GMT -8
China is edging toward retaking Taiwan. They flew into Taiwan’s airspace just the other day, attempting to intimidate. Meanwhile they watch the West’s response to Ukraine. A few sanctions and cancelling sports events. (Everybody knows that sanctions end up hurting the common guy more than those with power.) And they can withstand that. Ukraine is lost. We should have done more beforehand. The question is whether Putin feels Ukraine is enough or if he will try to win back former USSR states. I’d like to see a large US presence in the East. Dissuade China by showing our resolve. I mean Putin invaded Chechnya, and we did nothing. Putin invaded Georgia, and we did nothing. Putin invaded the Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk, and we did nothing. Putin now invades the Ukraine. What is left for Putin to invade? He won't invade the Baltic States. Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland have already invoked Article 4 of NATO. Article 4 has only been invoked seven times in NATO's history. I think that a lot of this is to try and convince nations like Finland to not be so cozy with the West. You don't want to end up like Ukraine, do you Finland? If only there were oil over there....
|
|
|
Post by Judge Smails on Feb 25, 2022 15:05:31 GMT -8
We're not worried about Russian sanctions against the West. The entire Russian economy is equivalent in size to Texas'. I'm not surprised that Russia is making nuclear threats. That is to be expected. What else have they got to threaten us with?Cyber attacks...think electric grid...nuke storage facilities, chemical plants, banking, fuel refineries, etc. Mail order brides?
|
|
|
Post by spudbeaver on Feb 25, 2022 15:22:43 GMT -8
Cyber attacks...think electric grid...nuke storage facilities, chemical plants, banking, fuel refineries, etc. Mail order brides? Hot female tennis players?
|
|
|
Post by ag87 on Feb 25, 2022 15:31:28 GMT -8
Hot female tennis players? 15-year-old juiced figure skaters?
|
|
|
Post by Werebeaver on Feb 25, 2022 15:44:57 GMT -8
We're not worried about Russian sanctions against the West. The entire Russian economy is equivalent in size to Texas'. I'm not surprised that Russia is making nuclear threats. That is to be expected. What else have they got to threaten us with?Cyber attacks...think electric grid...nuke storage facilities, chemical plants, banking, fuel refineries, etc. They have much more to fear from us on that stuff than we do from them.
|
|
|
Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Feb 25, 2022 17:32:34 GMT -8
I mean Putin invaded Chechnya, and we did nothing. Putin invaded Georgia, and we did nothing. Putin invaded the Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk, and we did nothing. Putin now invades the Ukraine. What is left for Putin to invade? He won't invade the Baltic States. Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland have already invoked Article 4 of NATO. Article 4 has only been invoked seven times in NATO's history. I think that a lot of this is to try and convince nations like Finland to not be so cozy with the West. You don't want to end up like Ukraine, do you Finland? If only there were oil over there.... OMG! My man! There is oil over there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What in holy hell?!?!?!?!?!? If we cared more about energy, Ukraine probably never would have been invaded in the first place. I mean, one of the big reasons that Putin took the Crimea is that it has a stupid amount of gas and oil, considering its size. The area Northeast of Kiev running Southeast toward Donetsk also has a stupid amount of gas and oil, considering their size. Basically, we allowed Russia to rob Ukraine of some of its most profitable areas, while we reduced production (almost 20% in the past 13+ months!) and bought more of the oil that Russia stole from the Ukraine. And then we are shocked and horrified, when Russia marches into the Ukraine in vehicles fueled by Ukrainian gas that were built using money that we shipped to Russia, instead of working to increase energy production in the Western Hemisphere. I would add that the third large oil fields in Ukraine are in the far west of the country, next to the borders of Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and Romania. Lviv and its immediate environs in the West of Ukraine need to be defended. Allowing those areas of the country to fall into Putin's hands gives a truly evil despot even more money and power and weakens our allies. If we were serious about stopping Russia: 1. We stop buying their oil. We work with Canada and Mexico or even Venezuela to drill Western Hemisphere oil. We get Europe and our allies in Africa and the Far East to go along. We don't buy conflict diamonds. We demand that all free people do not fill their cars with conflict oil. 2. We stop selling Russia food. Specifically, we convince Europe and the OAS countries to turn off sales to Russia. Food is a privilege for peoples not ruled by sociopaths. The Western Hemisphere are huge food exporters. Russia is a huge food importer. If we stop shipping food to Russia, Russia does not have the food to mount an invasion. Hungry people riot in the streets; they do not invade their neighbors.
|
|
|
Post by spudbeaver on Feb 25, 2022 17:36:06 GMT -8
If only there were oil over there.... OMG! My man! There is oil over there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What in holy hell?!?!?!?!?!? If we cared more about energy, Ukraine probably never would have been invaded in the first place. I mean, one of the big reasons that Putin took the Crimea is that it has a stupid amount of gas and oil, considering its size. The area Northeast of Kiev running Southeast toward Donetsk also has a stupid amount of gas and oil, considering their size. Basically, we allowed Russia to rob Ukraine of some of its most profitable areas, while we reduced production (almost 20% in the past 13+ months!) and bought more of the oil that Russia stole from the Ukraine. And then we are shocked and horrified, when Russia marches into the Ukraine in vehicles fueled by Ukrainian gas that were built using money that we shipped to Russia, instead of working to increase energy production in the Western Hemisphere. I would add that the third large oil fields in Ukraine are in the far west of the country, next to the borders of Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and Romania. Lviv and its immediate environs in the West of Ukraine need to be defended. Allowing those areas of the country to fall into Putin's hands gives a truly evil despot even more money and power and weakens our allies. If we were serious about stopping Russia: 1. We stop buying their oil. We work with Canada and Mexico or even Venezuela to drill Western Hemisphere oil. We get Europe and our allies in Africa and the Far East to go along. We don't buy conflict diamonds. We demand that all free people do not fill their cars with conflict oil. 2. We stop selling Russia food. Specifically, we convince Europe and the OAS countries to turn off sales to Russia. Food is a privilege for peoples not ruled by sociopaths. The Western Hemisphere are huge food exporters. Russia is a huge food importer. If we stop shipping food to Russia, Russia does not have the food to mount an invasion. Hungry people riot in the streets; they do not invade their neighbors.You lost me at Venezuela. Venezuela?
|
|
|
Post by TheGlove on Feb 25, 2022 17:38:49 GMT -8
OMG! My man! There is oil over there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What in holy hell?!?!?!?!?!? If we cared more about energy, Ukraine probably never would have been invaded in the first place. I mean, one of the big reasons that Putin took the Crimea is that it has a stupid amount of gas and oil, considering its size. The area Northeast of Kiev running Southeast toward Donetsk also has a stupid amount of gas and oil, considering their size. Basically, we allowed Russia to rob Ukraine of some of its most profitable areas, while we reduced production (almost 20% in the past 13+ months!) and bought more of the oil that Russia stole from the Ukraine. And then we are shocked and horrified, when Russia marches into the Ukraine in vehicles fueled by Ukrainian gas that were built using money that we shipped to Russia, instead of working to increase energy production in the Western Hemisphere. I would add that the third large oil fields in Ukraine are in the far west of the country, next to the borders of Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and Romania. Lviv and its immediate environs in the West of Ukraine need to be defended. Allowing those areas of the country to fall into Putin's hands gives a truly evil despot even more money and power and weakens our allies. If we were serious about stopping Russia: 1. We stop buying their oil. We work with Canada and Mexico or even Venezuela to drill Western Hemisphere oil. We get Europe and our allies in Africa and the Far East to go along. We don't buy conflict diamonds. We demand that all free people do not fill their cars with conflict oil. 2. We stop selling Russia food. Specifically, we convince Europe and the OAS countries to turn off sales to Russia. Food is a privilege for peoples not ruled by sociopaths. The Western Hemisphere are huge food exporters. Russia is a huge food importer. If we stop shipping food to Russia, Russia does not have the food to mount an invasion. Hungry people riot in the streets; they do not invade their neighbors.You lost me at Venezuela. Venezuela? I think he meant vuvuzela.
|
|
|
Post by irimi on Feb 25, 2022 17:54:21 GMT -8
If only there were oil over there.... OMG! My man! There is oil over there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What in holy hell?!?!?!?!?!? If we cared more about energy, Ukraine probably never would have been invaded in the first place. I mean, one of the big reasons that Putin took the Crimea is that it has a stupid amount of gas and oil, considering its size. The area Northeast of Kiev running Southeast toward Donetsk also has a stupid amount of gas and oil, considering their size. Basically, we allowed Russia to rob Ukraine of some of its most profitable areas, while we reduced production (almost 20% in the past 13+ months!) and bought more of the oil that Russia stole from the Ukraine. And then we are shocked and horrified, when Russia marches into the Ukraine in vehicles fueled by Ukrainian gas that were built using money that we shipped to Russia, instead of working to increase energy production in the Western Hemisphere. I would add that the third large oil fields in Ukraine are in the far west of the country, next to the borders of Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and Romania. Lviv and its immediate environs in the West of Ukraine need to be defended. Allowing those areas of the country to fall into Putin's hands gives a truly evil despot even more money and power and weakens our allies. If we were serious about stopping Russia: 1. We stop buying their oil. We work with Canada and Mexico or even Venezuela to drill Western Hemisphere oil. We get Europe and our allies in Africa and the Far East to go along. We don't buy conflict diamonds. We demand that all free people do not fill their cars with conflict oil. 2. We stop selling Russia food. Specifically, we convince Europe and the OAS countries to turn off sales to Russia. Food is a privilege for peoples not ruled by sociopaths. The Western Hemisphere are huge food exporters. Russia is a huge food importer. If we stop shipping food to Russia, Russia does not have the food to mount an invasion. Hungry people riot in the streets; they do not invade their neighbors.Then, let me amend that. Though I think you know what I meant. If only Ukraine was selling large amounts of oil to the US like Russia is (or was, before sanctions). Actually, rather than drilling in the Western Hemisphere for crude oil, we would be better served by weaning the country off the oil, so that we aren't beholden to the politics of other countries and we don't waste American lives fighting for an oil field in the middle of a desert. We should have made this push back in 1990 with Bush senior and the Iraq war. (More likely, before that during the Iran affairs, but I was too young to care, and I hate history.) Pour more resources into alternative energies. We can do it. And what a joy it would be. OPEC would be meaningless.
|
|
|
Post by spudbeaver on Feb 25, 2022 18:11:11 GMT -8
OMG! My man! There is oil over there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What in holy hell?!?!?!?!?!? If we cared more about energy, Ukraine probably never would have been invaded in the first place. I mean, one of the big reasons that Putin took the Crimea is that it has a stupid amount of gas and oil, considering its size. The area Northeast of Kiev running Southeast toward Donetsk also has a stupid amount of gas and oil, considering their size. Basically, we allowed Russia to rob Ukraine of some of its most profitable areas, while we reduced production (almost 20% in the past 13+ months!) and bought more of the oil that Russia stole from the Ukraine. And then we are shocked and horrified, when Russia marches into the Ukraine in vehicles fueled by Ukrainian gas that were built using money that we shipped to Russia, instead of working to increase energy production in the Western Hemisphere. I would add that the third large oil fields in Ukraine are in the far west of the country, next to the borders of Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and Romania. Lviv and its immediate environs in the West of Ukraine need to be defended. Allowing those areas of the country to fall into Putin's hands gives a truly evil despot even more money and power and weakens our allies. If we were serious about stopping Russia: 1. We stop buying their oil. We work with Canada and Mexico or even Venezuela to drill Western Hemisphere oil. We get Europe and our allies in Africa and the Far East to go along. We don't buy conflict diamonds. We demand that all free people do not fill their cars with conflict oil. 2. We stop selling Russia food. Specifically, we convince Europe and the OAS countries to turn off sales to Russia. Food is a privilege for peoples not ruled by sociopaths. The Western Hemisphere are huge food exporters. Russia is a huge food importer. If we stop shipping food to Russia, Russia does not have the food to mount an invasion. Hungry people riot in the streets; they do not invade their neighbors.Then, let me amend that. Though I think you know what I meant. If only Ukraine was selling large amounts of oil to the US like Russia is (or was, before sanctions). Actually, rather than drilling in the Western Hemisphere for crude oil, we would be better served by weaning the country off the oil, so that we aren't beholden to the politics of other countries and we don't waste American lives fighting for an oil field in the middle of a desert. We should have made this push back in 1990 with Bush senior and the Iraq war. (More likely, before that during the Iran affairs, but I was too young to care, and I hate history.) Pour more resources into alternative energies. We can do it. And what a joy it would be. OPEC would be meaningless. OPEC would be meaningless if we used the oil and natural gas reserves we have in the US, but you knew that. We could actually be a huge exporter of NG to Europe if we actually developed LNG facilities, further relegating Russia’s energy resources unnecessary.
|
|
|
Post by ag87 on Feb 25, 2022 18:16:05 GMT -8
OMG! My man! There is oil over there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What in holy hell?!?!?!?!?!? If we cared more about energy, Ukraine probably never would have been invaded in the first place. I mean, one of the big reasons that Putin took the Crimea is that it has a stupid amount of gas and oil, considering its size. The area Northeast of Kiev running Southeast toward Donetsk also has a stupid amount of gas and oil, considering their size. Basically, we allowed Russia to rob Ukraine of some of its most profitable areas, while we reduced production (almost 20% in the past 13+ months!) and bought more of the oil that Russia stole from the Ukraine. And then we are shocked and horrified, when Russia marches into the Ukraine in vehicles fueled by Ukrainian gas that were built using money that we shipped to Russia, instead of working to increase energy production in the Western Hemisphere. I would add that the third large oil fields in Ukraine are in the far west of the country, next to the borders of Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and Romania. Lviv and its immediate environs in the West of Ukraine need to be defended. Allowing those areas of the country to fall into Putin's hands gives a truly evil despot even more money and power and weakens our allies. If we were serious about stopping Russia: 1. We stop buying their oil. We work with Canada and Mexico or even Venezuela to drill Western Hemisphere oil. We get Europe and our allies in Africa and the Far East to go along. We don't buy conflict diamonds. We demand that all free people do not fill their cars with conflict oil. 2. We stop selling Russia food. Specifically, we convince Europe and the OAS countries to turn off sales to Russia. Food is a privilege for peoples not ruled by sociopaths. The Western Hemisphere are huge food exporters. Russia is a huge food importer. If we stop shipping food to Russia, Russia does not have the food to mount an invasion. Hungry people riot in the streets; they do not invade their neighbors.Then, let me amend that. Though I think you know what I meant. If only Ukraine was selling large amounts of oil to the US like Russia is (or was, before sanctions). Actually, rather than drilling in the Western Hemisphere for crude oil, we would be better served by weaning the country off the oil, so that we aren't beholden to the politics of other countries and we don't waste American lives fighting for an oil field in the middle of a desert. We should have made this push back in 1990 with Bush senior and the Iraq war. (More likely, before that during the Iran affairs, but I was too young to care, and I hate history.) Pour more resources into alternative energies. We can do it. And what a joy it would be. OPEC would be meaningless. Yes, no kidding. If I was king, we would pay an extra dollar per gallon to fill up our cars. Then we would use that money to go full bore on solar, wind, tidal and whatever else is more environmentally friendly. A bit related but a few years ago I was in the Tampa Bay area. I didn't know Florida was such a big user of coal. There is a huge coal fired power plant right on the bay in a town called Adamsville. It's ironic because it looks as if it is about 4-feet above sea level. So the sea level rise it is causing will drown it 50 or so years.
|
|
|
Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Feb 25, 2022 20:18:39 GMT -8
Then, let me amend that. Though I think you know what I meant. If only Ukraine was selling large amounts of oil to the US like Russia is (or was, before sanctions). Actually, rather than drilling in the Western Hemisphere for crude oil, we would be better served by weaning the country off the oil, so that we aren't beholden to the politics of other countries and we don't waste American lives fighting for an oil field in the middle of a desert. We should have made this push back in 1990 with Bush senior and the Iraq war. (More likely, before that during the Iran affairs, but I was too young to care, and I hate history.) Pour more resources into alternative energies. We can do it. And what a joy it would be. OPEC would be meaningless. Yes, no kidding. If I was king, we would pay an extra dollar per gallon to fill up our cars. Then we would use that money to go full bore on solar, wind, tidal and whatever else is more environmentally friendly. A bit related but a few years ago I was in the Tampa Bay area. I didn't know Florida was such a big user of coal. There is a huge coal fired power plant right on the bay in a town called Adamsville. It's ironic because it looks as if it is about 4-feet above sea level. So the sea level rise it is causing will drown it 50 or so years. Or at 3.4 mm/year..................359 years. 2381 is going to be pretty bleak. China produces more than double the CO2 that the United States produces every year. The United States produces less than a seventh of the World's CO2. Unless you get China and the rest of the world to reduce their production of CO2, it does not really matter what we do. Also, I do not want to minimize global warming, because it is a huge problem and something that we should work to stop. But China and Russia are both more worrisome than a potential four foot sea level rise in 359 years. Having said all of that, I do want to emphasize that we should all take all of the steps that we can to minimize our personal CO2 footprint. As with everything else, we should all be thinking globally but acting locally.
|
|
|
Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Feb 25, 2022 20:30:05 GMT -8
OMG! My man! There is oil over there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What in holy hell?!?!?!?!?!? If we cared more about energy, Ukraine probably never would have been invaded in the first place. I mean, one of the big reasons that Putin took the Crimea is that it has a stupid amount of gas and oil, considering its size. The area Northeast of Kiev running Southeast toward Donetsk also has a stupid amount of gas and oil, considering their size. Basically, we allowed Russia to rob Ukraine of some of its most profitable areas, while we reduced production (almost 20% in the past 13+ months!) and bought more of the oil that Russia stole from the Ukraine. And then we are shocked and horrified, when Russia marches into the Ukraine in vehicles fueled by Ukrainian gas that were built using money that we shipped to Russia, instead of working to increase energy production in the Western Hemisphere. I would add that the third large oil fields in Ukraine are in the far west of the country, next to the borders of Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and Romania. Lviv and its immediate environs in the West of Ukraine need to be defended. Allowing those areas of the country to fall into Putin's hands gives a truly evil despot even more money and power and weakens our allies. If we were serious about stopping Russia: 1. We stop buying their oil. We work with Canada and Mexico or even Venezuela to drill Western Hemisphere oil. We get Europe and our allies in Africa and the Far East to go along. We don't buy conflict diamonds. We demand that all free people do not fill their cars with conflict oil. 2. We stop selling Russia food. Specifically, we convince Europe and the OAS countries to turn off sales to Russia. Food is a privilege for peoples not ruled by sociopaths. The Western Hemisphere are huge food exporters. Russia is a huge food importer. If we stop shipping food to Russia, Russia does not have the food to mount an invasion. Hungry people riot in the streets; they do not invade their neighbors.You lost me at Venezuela. Venezuela? ............. Venezuela has the largest oil reserves in the World? Venezuela is also a member of OPEC. Maduro is a despot, but they have oil. If we had the will to save Venezuela from Maduro, we could provide freedom from Venezuelans and open up the ability to trade for Venezuelan oil. Win-win for America, Venezuela and the World in general. And a blow to China and Russia and their Axis of Evil.
|
|