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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Jun 23, 2021 17:07:12 GMT -8
Dude. As of last week, white Americans are being vaccinated at a rate 1.4 times higher than black Americans and white Americans are being vaccinated at a rate 1.2 times higher than Hispanic Americans. And the rate of vaccinations of Hispanic Oregonians is lagging behind both white and black Oregonians. So, Hispanic Oregonians are knuckle-draggers? So, Hispanic Oregonians are "dips%#ts?" Hispanic Oregonians are "f%#*ing boat anchors?" Hispanic Oregonians are "lizard brained mouthbreathers?" And African-Americans and Hispanic Americans outside of Oregon are the same? Knuckle-draggers? Dips%#ts? F%#*ing boat anchors? Lizard brained mouthbreathers? And who is telling those African-Americans and Hispanic Americans? Who is that "wrong" person that you nebulously refer to? Who is telling Hispanic Oregonians not to get vaccinated? You are parroting one-sided garbage and stating it as true. It is not true. There is a lot more to this than knuckle-draggers, dips%#ts, f%#*ing boat anchors and lizard-brained mouthbreathers. And your oversimplification is wildly offensive to everyone. And it should be. Respectfully, pull your head out and educate out of intelligence rather than pontificate out of ignorance. Otherwise, I really like a lot of what you said, but your wildly-offensive to everyone rhetoric, while it may be cathartic, is wildly unhelpful to our joint cause. We are all Americans in this together. Educate. Convince. You have a lot of knowledge to provide us both with regards to health and sports. But passive-aggressively calling out minorities and others as ignorant is not helpful to anyone in any capacity. Oregon is 87% white according to ACS survey data. In particular, in Oregon which I am mostly referring too in my rant, the counties with the worst vaccination rates are 90%+ white. Douglas County, is 94% white. 0.18% black, and 3.2% Hispanic they have a 44% vaccination rate. I plucked Douglas County because unlike many Eastern Oregon counties, they have a population of over 100K. Neighboring Jackson County is 92% white. 0.4% black and 7% Hispanic and have a 53% vaccination rate with a population of about 97K The center of Oregon's demographic diversity is Benton county, Lane County and the PDX metro counties ALL of which lead the state in vaccination rates Currently in Oregon, Blacks make up 2.2% of the population and 2.0% of the vaccinated population. Whites make up 87% of the population but only 68% of the vaccinated population. Hispanics make up 13% of the population and 8% of the vaccinated population. Among CDC data where race is known: Nationwide blacks make up 13% of the population and currently 9% of the vaccinated population. Nationwide Whites make up 76% of the population and currently 60% of the vaccinated population. Nationwide hispanics make up 18.5% of the population and currently 15% of the vaccinated population. (of note, of course, ethnicity can blend races, if you are wondering why it adds up to more than 100) Blacks are 4 percentage points off their demographic presences nationwide, Hispanics are 3.5 points off and Whites are 16 points off. In Oregon, blacks are 0.2% off, Hispanics are 5 points off and white are 19 points off Whites have the highest disparity between population demographics and vaccination numbers. It isn't even a debate. . According to this data from Kaiser Family foundation www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/latest-data-on-covid-19-vaccinations-race-ethnicity/, there really is only one state in the nation that is overly concerning: Georgia which has the black population lagging in vaccinations by 7 percentage points relative to its population distribution. Bloomberg visualized this data different, creating a "fair share" metric: www.bloomberg.com/graphics/covid-vaccine-tracker-global-distribution/us-vaccine-demographics.htmlEvery other state in this nation with high percentages of Black Americans are within 3 percentage points of their population rate. It is important to point out that race and ethnicity data is missing on nearly 40% of all vaccine records, however that is not true for Oregon, which mandated the collection of this data last year. I am extraordinarily aware of the issues of medical mistrust in the black community. I have spend plenty of time studying racism in the health care system, the Tuskegee study and other incidents where black Americans were made unwitting guinea pigs in the name of "medical science". We have consistently f%#*ed up medical advice for Blacks time and time again and to this day Blacks continue to have significantly poorer outcomes for the same conditions as whites, in an explanation that can generally only be chalked up to inferior care. Control for co morbid conditions, age, sex, and income, if blacks are still fairing worse, it is because they are being treated worse. Thanks to Trump's extraordinarily racist public charge rule, even though Biden correctly eliminated it, I don't blame a single non-citizen Hispanic person from being hesitant to get a free shot for fear (though unfounded) of being ineligible to gain citizenship. There are obvious challenges with some minority populations in America. and yes, it is wrong and cruel to infer these fears amount to lizardbrained mouthbreathers. However, vaccine hesitance among minorities does not compare to vaccine hesitance among White Americans both in Oregon and across the US. and yes at an overall population rate, far fewer blacks are vaccinated than whites... This rant is focused at lizard brained mouthbreathers because that is what we are down to. That is the major population. that is what is holding both Oregon and the US from high, herd immunity rates. You are arguing the margins with me. You are taking the outliers and moving them front in center and giving me a healthy dose of whattaboutism... Issues with health disparities among minorities is very serious. There are good reasons why some minority populations would be hesitant to get the vaccine. It does not make them a lizard brain mouthbreather... To that, of course, I concede. was my rant over generalized and ham-fisted? of course... but. The absolute, dominate, far and away majority of people not getting the vaccine, relative to their population, are white people. Nothing that I have said is whataboutism. Soviet whataboutism would be me all of a sudden talking about a different country altogether. An example would be something akin to you think you have problems, look at India. That is Soviet whataboutism. Recently, the Left has been trying to coopt Soviet whataboutism into a nonsensical magic catchall phrase to deride whatever they disagree with. But you are not using the term as it has always been used previous to a couple of years ago. And to be 100% fair to you, it is probably because the media that you consume is incorrectly using the term. You cite to articles. Here is what your data says: According to your very own Bloomberg data: First off, in Oregon, non-White Hispanics make up 75.7% of the population and 74.7% of the vaccinated population. I do not know where you are getting your other numbers. Asian and Black Oregonians are vaccinated at a higher rate than Hispanic and non-Hispanic White Oregonians. But more than four times the deviation from mean (gross, not as a percentage) Hispanic Oregonians have not been vaccinated than non-Hispanic white Oregonians. As a percentage, white non-Hispanics Oregonians are getting vaccinated more than 47% more often than Hispanics. The "problem" in Oregon is Hispanic Oregonians are not getting vaccinated. If Hispanic Oregonians were getting vaccinated at a rate even consistent with non-Hispanic white Oregonians, Oregon would already be at 70%. You use some red herring Douglas and Jackson County numbers, which are neither here nor there for good measure, but the Bloomberg numbers tell the story. CDC data: 17.2% of Americans are Hispanic/Latino. 15.2% of vaccinated Americans are Hispanic/Latino. 0.8% of Americans are non-Hispanic American Indians/Alaska Natives. 1.0% of vaccinated Americans are non-Hispanic American Indians/Alaska Natives. 12.4% of Americans are non-Hispanic Blacks. 9.2% of vaccinated Americans are non-Hispanic Blacks. 0.3% of Americans are non-Hispanic Native Hawaiian/Other Pacific Islanders. 0.3% of vaccinated Americans are non-Hispanic Native Hawaiian/Other Pacific Islanders. 61.2% of the people in the United States of America are non-Hispanic Whites. 60.1% of all people vaccinated are non-Hispanic Whites. Currently 65.6% of adults have been vaccinated. More than four times the deviation from mean (gross, not as a percentage) Black and Hispanic Americans have been vaccinated than non-Hispanic white Oregonians. As a percentage, non-Hispanic White Americans are getting vaccinated more than 19% more often than Black and Hispanic Americans. Non-Hispanic Whites are lagging, as well, but the bulk of the deviation from mean is from the Black and Hispanic communities. You highlight reasons why this may be, and you may be correct. But I would posit that throwing shade at White Oregonians living in Douglas and Jackson Counties is not helpful to our shared cause. Further, to your point, religious people tend to get vaccinated in lower percentages, regardless of the vaccine. The Amish, Christian Scientists, Jehovah's Witnesses and Scientologists (just to name the easiest four) tend to avoid all vaccines. Those religious people make up about 7-8% of the population and can be found everywhere across the religious spectrum, although the first three tend to vote conservative. The fact that it is a coronavirus vaccine, rather than a run-of-the-mill vaccine is neither here nor there. To suggest that they are somehow being convinced not to take it is ridiculous. You walked back your ad hominem statements, which I appreciate. I am trying to do the same, just speak factually and not fall prey to my gut reaction emotions. The numbers that I have seen are the Bloomberg and CDC numbers. Most of the delta in the United States is due to Black and Hispanic hesitancy, not non-Hispanic White hesitancy. And most of the delta in Oregon is due to Hispanic hesitancy, not non-Hispanic White hesitancy. We are getting there. It may be slower than you and I would like, but, with more educational outreach, we will get there.
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Post by OSUprof on Jun 23, 2021 17:41:05 GMT -8
Are the pre-Covid anti-vaccination types taking the Covid injection?
These were the folks that thought that vaccines caused autism in children and other disorders. They were concerned with mercury and other agents in the vaccines, even the attenuated viruses themselves. There seemed to be a lot of them - mainly white and female, middle to upper income and certainly not right of center with regard to politics.
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Post by Werebeaver on Jun 23, 2021 18:37:25 GMT -8
Oregon is 87% white according to ACS survey data. In particular, in Oregon which I am mostly referring too in my rant, the counties with the worst vaccination rates are 90%+ white. Douglas County, is 94% white. 0.18% black, and 3.2% Hispanic they have a 44% vaccination rate. I plucked Douglas County because unlike many Eastern Oregon counties, they have a population of over 100K. Neighboring Jackson County is 92% white. 0.4% black and 7% Hispanic and have a 53% vaccination rate with a population of about 97K The center of Oregon's demographic diversity is Benton county, Lane County and the PDX metro counties ALL of which lead the state in vaccination rates Currently in Oregon, Blacks make up 2.2% of the population and 2.0% of the vaccinated population. Whites make up 87% of the population but only 68% of the vaccinated population. Hispanics make up 13% of the population and 8% of the vaccinated population. Among CDC data where race is known: Nationwide blacks make up 13% of the population and currently 9% of the vaccinated population. Nationwide Whites make up 76% of the population and currently 60% of the vaccinated population. Nationwide hispanics make up 18.5% of the population and currently 15% of the vaccinated population. (of note, of course, ethnicity can blend races, if you are wondering why it adds up to more than 100) Blacks are 4 percentage points off their demographic presences nationwide, Hispanics are 3.5 points off and Whites are 16 points off. In Oregon, blacks are 0.2% off, Hispanics are 5 points off and white are 19 points off Whites have the highest disparity between population demographics and vaccination numbers. It isn't even a debate. . According to this data from Kaiser Family foundation www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/latest-data-on-covid-19-vaccinations-race-ethnicity/, there really is only one state in the nation that is overly concerning: Georgia which has the black population lagging in vaccinations by 7 percentage points relative to its population distribution. Bloomberg visualized this data different, creating a "fair share" metric: www.bloomberg.com/graphics/covid-vaccine-tracker-global-distribution/us-vaccine-demographics.htmlEvery other state in this nation with high percentages of Black Americans are within 3 percentage points of their population rate. It is important to point out that race and ethnicity data is missing on nearly 40% of all vaccine records, however that is not true for Oregon, which mandated the collection of this data last year. I am extraordinarily aware of the issues of medical mistrust in the black community. I have spend plenty of time studying racism in the health care system, the Tuskegee study and other incidents where black Americans were made unwitting guinea pigs in the name of "medical science". We have consistently f%#*ed up medical advice for Blacks time and time again and to this day Blacks continue to have significantly poorer outcomes for the same conditions as whites, in an explanation that can generally only be chalked up to inferior care. Control for co morbid conditions, age, sex, and income, if blacks are still fairing worse, it is because they are being treated worse. Thanks to Trump's extraordinarily racist public charge rule, even though Biden correctly eliminated it, I don't blame a single non-citizen Hispanic person from being hesitant to get a free shot for fear (though unfounded) of being ineligible to gain citizenship. There are obvious challenges with some minority populations in America. and yes, it is wrong and cruel to infer these fears amount to lizardbrained mouthbreathers. However, vaccine hesitance among minorities does not compare to vaccine hesitance among White Americans both in Oregon and across the US. and yes at an overall population rate, far fewer blacks are vaccinated than whites... This rant is focused at lizard brained mouthbreathers because that is what we are down to. That is the major population. that is what is holding both Oregon and the US from high, herd immunity rates. You are arguing the margins with me. You are taking the outliers and moving them front in center and giving me a healthy dose of whattaboutism... Issues with health disparities among minorities is very serious. There are good reasons why some minority populations would be hesitant to get the vaccine. It does not make them a lizard brain mouthbreather... To that, of course, I concede. was my rant over generalized and ham-fisted? of course... but. The absolute, dominate, far and away majority of people not getting the vaccine, relative to their population, are white people. Nothing that I have said is whataboutism. Soviet whataboutism would be me all of a sudden talking about a different country altogether. An example would be something akin to you think you have problems, look at India. That is Soviet whataboutism. Recently, the Left has been trying to coopt Soviet whataboutism into a nonsensical magic catchall phrase to deride whatever they disagree with. But you are not using the term as it has always been used previous to a couple of years ago. And to be 100% fair to you, it is probably because the media that you consume is incorrectly using the term. You cite to articles. Here is what your data says: According to your very own Bloomberg data: First off, in Oregon, non-White Hispanics make up 75.7% of the population and 74.7% of the vaccinated population. I do not know where you are getting your other numbers. Asian and Black Oregonians are vaccinated at a higher rate than Hispanic and non-Hispanic White Oregonians. But more than four times the deviation from mean (gross, not as a percentage) Hispanic Oregonians have not been vaccinated than non-Hispanic white Oregonians. As a percentage, white non-Hispanics Oregonians are getting vaccinated more than 47% more often than Hispanics. The "problem" in Oregon is Hispanic Oregonians are not getting vaccinated. If Hispanic Oregonians were getting vaccinated at a rate even consistent with non-Hispanic white Oregonians, Oregon would already be at 70%. You use some red herring Douglas and Jackson County numbers, which are neither here nor there for good measure, but the Bloomberg numbers tell the story. CDC data: 17.2% of Americans are Hispanic/Latino. 15.2% of vaccinated Americans are Hispanic/Latino. 0.8% of Americans are non-Hispanic American Indians/Alaska Natives. 1.0% of vaccinated Americans are non-Hispanic American Indians/Alaska Natives. 12.4% of Americans are non-Hispanic Blacks. 9.2% of vaccinated Americans are non-Hispanic Blacks. 0.3% of Americans are non-Hispanic Native Hawaiian/Other Pacific Islanders. 0.3% of vaccinated Americans are non-Hispanic Native Hawaiian/Other Pacific Islanders. 61.2% of the people in the United States of America are non-Hispanic Whites. 60.1% of all people vaccinated are non-Hispanic Whites. Currently 65.6% of adults have been vaccinated. More than four times the deviation from mean (gross, not as a percentage) Black and Hispanic Americans have been vaccinated than non-Hispanic white Oregonians. As a percentage, non-Hispanic White Americans are getting vaccinated more than 19% more often than Black and Hispanic Americans. Non-Hispanic Whites are lagging, as well, but the bulk of the deviation from mean is from the Black and Hispanic communities. You highlight reasons why this may be, and you may be correct. But I would posit that throwing shade at White Oregonians living in Douglas and Jackson Counties is not helpful to our shared cause. Further, to your point, religious people tend to get vaccinated in lower percentages, regardless of the vaccine. The Amish, Christian Scientists, Jehovah's Witnesses and Scientologists (just to name the easiest four) tend to avoid all vaccines. Those religious people make up about 7-8% of the population and can be found everywhere across the religious spectrum, although the first three tend to vote conservative. The fact that it is a coronavirus vaccine, rather than a run-of-the-mill vaccine is neither here nor there. To suggest that they are somehow being convinced not to take it is ridiculous. You walked back your ad hominem statements, which I appreciate. I am trying to do the same, just speak factually and not fall prey to my gut reaction emotions. The numbers that I have seen are the Bloomberg and CDC numbers. Most of the delta in the United States is due to Black and Hispanic hesitancy, not non-Hispanic White hesitancy. And most of the delta in Oregon is due to Hispanic hesitancy, not non-Hispanic White hesitancy. We are getting there. It may be slower than you and I would like, but, with more educational outreach, we will get there. ” First off, in Oregon, non-White Hispanics make up 75.7% of the population and 74.7% of the vaccinated population.” What?
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Post by ag87 on Jun 24, 2021 8:18:36 GMT -8
Dude. As of last week, white Americans are being vaccinated at a rate 1.4 times higher than black Americans and white Americans are being vaccinated at a rate 1.2 times higher than Hispanic Americans. And the rate of vaccinations of Hispanic Oregonians is lagging behind both white and black Oregonians. So, Hispanic Oregonians are knuckle-draggers? So, Hispanic Oregonians are "dips%#ts?" Hispanic Oregonians are "f%#*ing boat anchors?" Hispanic Oregonians are "lizard brained mouthbreathers?" And African-Americans and Hispanic Americans outside of Oregon are the same? Knuckle-draggers? Dips%#ts? F%#*ing boat anchors? Lizard brained mouthbreathers? And who is telling those African-Americans and Hispanic Americans? Who is that "wrong" person that you nebulously refer to? Who is telling Hispanic Oregonians not to get vaccinated? You are parroting one-sided garbage and stating it as true. It is not true. There is a lot more to this than knuckle-draggers, dips%#ts, f%#*ing boat anchors and lizard-brained mouthbreathers. And your oversimplification is wildly offensive to everyone. And it should be. Respectfully, pull your head out and educate out of intelligence rather than pontificate out of ignorance. Otherwise, I really like a lot of what you said, but your wildly-offensive to everyone rhetoric, while it may be cathartic, is wildly unhelpful to our joint cause. We are all Americans in this together. Educate. Convince. You have a lot of knowledge to provide us both with regards to health and sports. But passive-aggressively calling out minorities and others as ignorant is not helpful to anyone in any capacity. Oregon is 87% white according to ACS survey data. In particular, in Oregon which I am mostly referring too in my rant, the counties with the worst vaccination rates are 90%+ white. Douglas County, is 94% white. 0.18% black, and 3.2% Hispanic they have a 44% vaccination rate. I plucked Douglas County because unlike many Eastern Oregon counties, they have a population of over 100K. Neighboring Jackson County is 92% white. 0.4% black and 7% Hispanic and have a 53% vaccination rate with a population of about 97K The center of Oregon's demographic diversity is Benton county, Lane County and the PDX metro counties ALL of which lead the state in vaccination rates Currently in Oregon, Blacks make up 2.2% of the population and 2.0% of the vaccinated population. Whites make up 87% of the population but only 68% of the vaccinated population. Hispanics make up 13% of the population and 8% of the vaccinated population. Among CDC data where race is known: Nationwide blacks make up 13% of the population and currently 9% of the vaccinated population. Nationwide Whites make up 76% of the population and currently 60% of the vaccinated population. Nationwide hispanics make up 18.5% of the population and currently 15% of the vaccinated population. (of note, of course, ethnicity can blend races, if you are wondering why it adds up to more than 100) Blacks are 4 percentage points off their demographic presences nationwide, Hispanics are 3.5 points off and Whites are 16 points off. In Oregon, blacks are 0.2% off, Hispanics are 5 points off and white are 19 points off Whites have the highest disparity between population demographics and vaccination numbers. It isn't even a debate. . According to this data from Kaiser Family foundation www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/latest-data-on-covid-19-vaccinations-race-ethnicity/, there really is only one state in the nation that is overly concerning: Georgia which has the black population lagging in vaccinations by 7 percentage points relative to its population distribution. Bloomberg visualized this data different, creating a "fair share" metric: www.bloomberg.com/graphics/covid-vaccine-tracker-global-distribution/us-vaccine-demographics.htmlEvery other state in this nation with high percentages of Black Americans are within 3 percentage points of their population rate. It is important to point out that race and ethnicity data is missing on nearly 40% of all vaccine records, however that is not true for Oregon, which mandated the collection of this data last year. I am extraordinarily aware of the issues of medical mistrust in the black community. I have spend plenty of time studying racism in the health care system, the Tuskegee study and other incidents where black Americans were made unwitting guinea pigs in the name of "medical science". We have consistently f%#*ed up medical advice for Blacks time and time again and to this day Blacks continue to have significantly poorer outcomes for the same conditions as whites, in an explanation that can generally only be chalked up to inferior care. Control for co morbid conditions, age, sex, and income, if blacks are still fairing worse, it is because they are being treated worse. Thanks to Trump's extraordinarily racist public charge rule, even though Biden correctly eliminated it, I don't blame a single non-citizen Hispanic person from being hesitant to get a free shot for fear (though unfounded) of being ineligible to gain citizenship. There are obvious challenges with some minority populations in America. and yes, it is wrong and cruel to infer these fears amount to lizardbrained mouthbreathers. However, vaccine hesitance among minorities does not compare to vaccine hesitance among White Americans both in Oregon and across the US. and yes at an overall population rate, far fewer blacks are vaccinated than whites... This rant is focused at lizard brained mouthbreathers because that is what we are down to. That is the major population. that is what is holding both Oregon and the US from high, herd immunity rates. You are arguing the margins with me. You are taking the outliers and moving them front in center and giving me a healthy dose of whattaboutism... Issues with health disparities among minorities is very serious. There are good reasons why some minority populations would be hesitant to get the vaccine. It does not make them a lizard brain mouthbreather... To that, of course, I concede. was my rant over generalized and ham-fisted? of course... but. The absolute, dominate, far and away majority of people not getting the vaccine, relative to their population, are white people. I have anecdotal evidence from Douglas County. I grew up there and my sister lives in Yoncalla. It's a small town roughly half way between Roseburg and Eugene. I've spent a lot of time in Yoncalla the last decade. A guy named Jim Thorpe (not the first half the 20th century's greatest athlete) owned the one working lumber mill in Yoncalla, another wood products mill in Yoncalla, and was the driving force behind the Yoncalla Rodeo. He was maybe 65, very fit and died of covid in late 2020. I was in the market there about a week after his death. Two people were in a semi argument on his cause of death. One person kept insisting it was a heart attack. Thorpe had been on a ventilator for quite a while - maybe a month. He may have had a heart attack. I don't know. But I do know he had a massive case of Covid. The heart attack proponent leaves and I look out the window as she gets into her truck. Sure as a bear poops in the woods, there were two MAGA stickers on it.
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Post by seastape on Jun 24, 2021 12:03:21 GMT -8
The issue is that we are rapidly approaching the "you can lead a horse to water" stage of this thing... The US, and Oregon, has done their job. We have produced a working and highly effective vaccine that offers high efficacy against the delta variant, we have made it readily available, we have made it free. We have greatly promoted it and basically done everything reasonable in our power to get it to the people. You can walk into basically any pharmacy in this state and get it. you can call any hospital in the state and walk into a clinic and get it. nearly every major primary physician org in the state is offering it. And yet, we still have hundreds of thousands of knuckle-draggers not doing it... and worse, they reason isn't because they think the vaccine is bad or dangerous (that is a pretty small minority in the grand scheme of things). they are not doing it out of reactance. out of belligerence. and to be perfectly blunt, because they are being told to do it and worse, the "wrong" person is telling the to do it. It is of absolutely no surprise the highest rates of vaccination in the US and in Oregon are highly correlated with political party distribution... And I say this with the full power of a master's degree in epi and knowing it is contrary to principles of public health... but we have hit the point that people are starting to make their bed and they are going to have to lay in it. And as a practitioner of public health and a person that has a career in health policy and trying to make people healthier... I am starting to resent my life being held back by dips%#ts. We have spent 18 months mostly, kinda sorta, all a little bit working together, all kind of rowing the boat. Now is not the time that I have to offer any compassion or sympathy to people that still want to be a f%#*ing boat anchor because they are lizard brained mouthbreathers. It is sad that inevitably we will see some sort of wave due to delta. it will happen. It will kill people it doesn't have too. But... it is literally preventable at this point and at some point you just have to say "well, that is on them". A 70% vaccination rate means that Delta ramping up won't overrun our hospitals. our counts will likely never be what they were this past winter... but the mortality rate is going to go up. It would be different if the vaccine wasn't accessible, but that is not the issue. They are sitting around going to waste because they are expiring. We are donating tens of millions of doses to other countries because Americans aren't getting it. Bottom line, the government has done its job, done what is expected. It is up to the people and the people are dropping the ball, I can't see that we can continue to hold back people based on the incomprehensible idiocy of the loud and stupid minority. More over, I trust science and the vaccine. It is EXTREMELY effective (Moderna and Pfizer that is). I have zero hesitation going out and about in public and I will only put a mask on inside, and I only do that because it is literally zero effort for me and I don't want to pack around a vaccine card and I honestly don't give a s%#t. I have bought concert tickets for some rad shows at Edgefield this August, I bought season tickets to football this year, I am going on a two week road trip in a couple weeks to see some grandparents we haven't seen in two years and I am fired up. Nowhere in my mind is the threat of getting COVID, because I am vaccinated. And while I know it doesn't make me invincible, I know it means even if I still do get it, it most likely will be extremely mild. COVID is never going away... society needs to understand this. I just think it is sad to know how many people will die before some people get the message. As a semi-related side note: COVID finally hit a close family member. We have a cousin in Colorado that has been in the hospital for now two weeks, and was finally just taken off of high flow oxygen a day ago. He was a hair away from intubation, with O2 sats getting down to the low 60s. while he is a bit of a bigger guy, but he is also only 30 with no other major health issues. He wasn't anti-vax, but was not vaccinated simply because he never got around to it and was too busy at work... well now he has missed two weeks and is looking at hundreds of thousands in hospital bills... He also has all the makings of this being long haul. It can still get you. get your shot. Dude. As of last week, white Americans are being vaccinated at a rate 1.4 times higher than black Americans and white Americans are being vaccinated at a rate 1.2 times higher than Hispanic Americans. And the rate of vaccinations of Hispanic Oregonians is lagging behind both white and black Oregonians. So, Hispanic Oregonians are knuckle-draggers? So, Hispanic Oregonians are "dips%#ts?" Hispanic Oregonians are "f%#*ing boat anchors?" Hispanic Oregonians are "lizard brained mouthbreathers?" And African-Americans and Hispanic Americans outside of Oregon are the same? Knuckle-draggers? Dips%#ts? F%#*ing boat anchors? Lizard brained mouthbreathers? And who is telling those African-Americans and Hispanic Americans? Who is that "wrong" person that you nebulously refer to? Who is telling Hispanic Oregonians not to get vaccinated? You are parroting one-sided garbage and stating it as true. It is not true. There is a lot more to this than knuckle-draggers, dips%#ts, f%#*ing boat anchors and lizard-brained mouthbreathers. And your oversimplification is wildly offensive to everyone. And it should be. Respectfully, pull your head out and educate out of intelligence rather than pontificate out of ignorance. Otherwise, I really like a lot of what you said, but your wildly-offensive to everyone rhetoric, while it may be cathartic, is wildly unhelpful to our joint cause. We are all Americans in this together. Educate. Convince. You have a lot of knowledge to provide us both with regards to health and sports. But passive-aggressively calling out minorities and others as ignorant is not helpful to anyone in any capacity. Nice try making atown out to be on some sort of racist diatribe and at the same time pretending that resistance to the vaccine isn't a political issue. The fact of the matter is that there have been many polls out that concluded who is most likely to refuse a vaccine, and the results are far more political than racial (although there are racial lines): Texas A+ M poll, conducted between 5/28/20 -- 06/08/20: 31% overall refusal rate amongst Americans 41% refusal rate among Black reposndents Women are 71% more likely to decline vaccination. People who planned to vote for Trump were 29% more like than non-Trump voters to refuse the vaccine. www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/which-us-demographics-are-more-likely-to-refuse-a-covid-19-vaccineNPR poll taken 03/03/21 -- 03/08/21: Refusal among blacks: 25% Refusal among whites: 28% Refusal among Latinos: 37% Refusal among Republican men: 49% Refusal among Democratic men: 6% Refusal among 2020 Trump voters: 47% Refusal among 2020 Biden voters: 10% www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/03/12/976172586/little-difference-in-vaccine-hesitancy-among-white-and-black-americans-poll-findPoll taken in February, 2021 by the University of Texas/Texas Tribune: Among Texans: February, 2021: 61% of white Republicans are reluctant or would refuse the vaccine 59% of all Republicans are reluctant/refuse. 25% of all Democrats are reluctant/refuse. October, 2020: 53% of black Texans will refuse 43% of Republican Texans will refuse February, 2021: 29% of black will Texans will refuse 41% of Republican Texans will refuse The article covering the poll links another poll that says nationwide, 53% of white Republicans are reluctant/refuse www.texastribune.org/2021/03/23/covid-vaccine-hesitancy-white-republicans/The National Review had an article (4-9-21) that discussed a Kaiser Family Foundation poll that said 15% of whites, 8% of Hispanics and 10% of blacks would definitely refuse. The same poll found that 46% of Republicans had been vaccinated while 79% of Democrats had and 57% of Independents had. The same article pointed out that the states that have had the lowest percentages of their populations that had had at least one shot were MS, AL, GA, TN, LA, IN, ID, WY, MO, AR, and TX. www.nationalreview.com/the-morning-jolt/americas-vaccine-hesitant-demographics/Go ahead and pretend otherwise, but it's the right-wing media and politicians that are driving the anti-vax train. Or, as atown said, " ...we still have hundreds of thousands of knuckle-draggers not doing it...because...the 'wrong' person is telling the( sic) to do it."
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Jun 24, 2021 12:39:14 GMT -8
The thing that kinda surprises me is that Trump was pushing for speeding up the vaccine approvals to make it "all go away" "like a miracle", yet it does seem that the people seemingly most vested in Trump are the largest group of vaccine deniers and refusers.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Jun 24, 2021 12:50:36 GMT -8
Dude. As of last week, white Americans are being vaccinated at a rate 1.4 times higher than black Americans and white Americans are being vaccinated at a rate 1.2 times higher than Hispanic Americans. And the rate of vaccinations of Hispanic Oregonians is lagging behind both white and black Oregonians. So, Hispanic Oregonians are knuckle-draggers? So, Hispanic Oregonians are "dips%#ts?" Hispanic Oregonians are "f%#*ing boat anchors?" Hispanic Oregonians are "lizard brained mouthbreathers?" And African-Americans and Hispanic Americans outside of Oregon are the same? Knuckle-draggers? Dips%#ts? F%#*ing boat anchors? Lizard brained mouthbreathers? And who is telling those African-Americans and Hispanic Americans? Who is that "wrong" person that you nebulously refer to? Who is telling Hispanic Oregonians not to get vaccinated? You are parroting one-sided garbage and stating it as true. It is not true. There is a lot more to this than knuckle-draggers, dips%#ts, f%#*ing boat anchors and lizard-brained mouthbreathers. And your oversimplification is wildly offensive to everyone. And it should be. Respectfully, pull your head out and educate out of intelligence rather than pontificate out of ignorance. Otherwise, I really like a lot of what you said, but your wildly-offensive to everyone rhetoric, while it may be cathartic, is wildly unhelpful to our joint cause. We are all Americans in this together. Educate. Convince. You have a lot of knowledge to provide us both with regards to health and sports. But passive-aggressively calling out minorities and others as ignorant is not helpful to anyone in any capacity. Nice try making atown out to be on some sort of racist diatribe and at the same time pretending that resistance to the vaccine isn't a political issue. The fact of the matter is that there have been many polls out that concluded who is most likely to refuse a vaccine, and the results are far more political than racial (although there are racial lines): Texas A+ M poll, conducted between 5/28/20 -- 06/08/20: 31% overall refusal rate amongst Americans 41% refusal rate among Black respondents Women are 71% more likely to decline vaccination. People who planned to vote for Trump were 29% more like than non-Trump voters to refuse the vaccine. www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/which-us-demographics-are-more-likely-to-refuse-a-covid-19-vaccineNPR poll taken 03/03/21 -- 03/08/21: Refusal among blacks: 25% Refusal among whites: 28% Refusal among Latinos: 37% Refusal among Republican men: 49% Refusal among Democratic men: 6% Refusal among 2020 Trump voters: 47% Refusal among 2020 Biden voters: 10% www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/03/12/976172586/little-difference-in-vaccine-hesitancy-among-white-and-black-americans-poll-findPoll taken in February, 2021 by the University of Texas/Texas Tribune: Among Texans: February, 2021: 61% of white Republicans are reluctant or would refuse the vaccine 59% of all Republicans are reluctant/refuse. 25% of all Democrats are reluctant/refuse. October, 2020: 53% of black Texans will refuse 43% of Republican Texans will refuse February, 2021: 29% of black will Texans will refuse 41% of Republican Texans will refuse The article covering the poll links another poll that says nationwide, 53% of white Republicans are reluctant/refuse www.texastribune.org/2021/03/23/covid-vaccine-hesitancy-white-republicans/The National Review had an article (4-9-21) that discussed a Kaiser Family Foundation poll that said 15% of whites, 8% of Hispanics and 10% of blacks would definitely refuse. The same poll found that 46% of Republicans had been vaccinated while 79% of Democrats had and 57% of Independents had. The same article pointed out that the states that have had the lowest percentages of their populations that had had at least one shot were MS, AL, GA, TN, LA, IN, ID, WY, MO, AR, and TX. www.nationalreview.com/the-morning-jolt/americas-vaccine-hesitant-demographics/Go ahead and pretend otherwise, but it's the right-wing media and politicians that are driving the anti-vax train. Or, as atown said, " ...we still have hundreds of thousands of knuckle-draggers not doing it...because...the 'wrong' person is telling the( sic) to do it." Polls! Lol!!!!!!!!! Polls have been growing more and more wildly unreliable for years. Believe 'em, if you would like. A lot of garbage in the method, a lot of garbage in the questions and a lot of garbage in the results. The fourth state that you mentioned is Georgia, which voted for Joe Biden. Explain. The article that you cite is more than three months old at this point with data that is probably older. Polling since the cited polling has indicated that the disparity between Democrats and Republicans in vaccine hesitancy is not as large as was reported in March, which is why it stopped being reported on several weeks ago without retraction or further explanation. But, it is all still polls, so we should take that all with a grain of salt. If this is a Democrat-Republican thing, though, then please explain with particularity why it would be true that the Virgin Islands has a lower vaccination rate than nine of the states on your list of 11 states. Why does American Samoa have a lower vaccination rate than three of those states? Why is Georgia fourth on your list of 11? Why are Iowa, Nebraska and South Dakota in the upper half of state vaccination rates in the United States? Why is a state like Nevada in the bottom 20? If this were a true Democrat-Republican thing and that was the primary driver, you would expect the data to be different. Some right-wing media and politicians may be driving the anti-vax train. But I would posit that non-Hispanic White Americans who are religious tend to be more anti-vax in general. As I said in a different post, at least 7-8% are never going to get vaccinated for anything, regardless of what they are told or by whom or regardless of what science says. It would be against their religion. This is still the United States of America, and they have the unequivocal right to believe what they would like and not be vaccinated. In the end, the data supports the fact that Black and Hispanic Americans make up the unvaccinated in much higher percentages. I would hazard to guess that there is probably a Democrat/Republican vaccination rate disparity. A big part of that appears to be that certain religions do not support vaccines of any kind. This shows up in a lot of data, COVID-19, polio, MMR, etc. Any Democrat/Republican rate disparity is probably a drop in the bucket compared to the vaccination rates among Black and Hispanic Americans. ATown accused me of arguing the margins. I would posit that you and ATown are the ones arguing margins.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Jun 24, 2021 13:02:53 GMT -8
The thing that kinda surprises me is that Trump was pushing for speeding up the vaccine approvals to make it "all go away" "like a miracle", yet it does seem that the people seemingly most vested in Trump are the largest group of vaccine deniers and refusers. Black and Hispanic Americans have the lowest vaccination rates. Kamala Harris stated before and during the Vice-Presidential debate that she would not trust a Trump vaccine. Two months later, she was taking that same untrustworthy vaccine. One cannot help but wonder whether stupid campaign statements and egregious subsequent flip-flopping by high-ranking Democrats might be stifling inoculation rates among Black and Hispanic Americans. A good portion of Trump's support probably came from people who are anti-vaxxers, against all vaccines. The vaccine issue was probably less important than other issues for such people.
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Post by Werebeaver on Jun 24, 2021 14:36:08 GMT -8
The thing that kinda surprises me is that Trump was pushing for speeding up the vaccine approvals to make it "all go away" "like a miracle", yet it does seem that the people seemingly most vested in Trump are the largest group of vaccine deniers and refusers. Black and Hispanic Americans have the lowest vaccination rates. Kamala Harris stated before and during the Vice-Presidential debate that she would not trust a Trump vaccine. Two months later, she was taking that same untrustworthy vaccine. One cannot help but wonder whether stupid campaign statements and egregious subsequent flip-flopping by high-ranking Democrats might be stifling inoculation rates among Black and Hispanic Americans. A good portion of Trump's support probably came from people who are anti-vaxxers, against all vaccines. The vaccine issue was probably less important than other issues for such people. You should quit while you’re behind. Keep digging that hole.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Jun 24, 2021 15:09:21 GMT -8
Black and Hispanic Americans have the lowest vaccination rates. Kamala Harris stated before and during the Vice-Presidential debate that she would not trust a Trump vaccine. Two months later, she was taking that same untrustworthy vaccine. One cannot help but wonder whether stupid campaign statements and egregious subsequent flip-flopping by high-ranking Democrats might be stifling inoculation rates among Black and Hispanic Americans. A good portion of Trump's support probably came from people who are anti-vaxxers, against all vaccines. The vaccine issue was probably less important than other issues for such people. You should quit while you’re behind. Keep digging that hole. The fact that we are even close to 70%, considering how Democratic politicians hammered vaccines during the 2020 Election is a miracle.
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Post by RenoBeaver on Jun 24, 2021 16:51:08 GMT -8
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Post by atownbeaver on Jun 24, 2021 16:56:08 GMT -8
The thing that kinda surprises me is that Trump was pushing for speeding up the vaccine approvals to make it "all go away" "like a miracle", yet it does seem that the people seemingly most vested in Trump are the largest group of vaccine deniers and refusers. Black and Hispanic Americans have the lowest vaccination rates. Kamala Harris stated before and during the Vice-Presidential debate that she would not trust a Trump vaccine. Two months later, she was taking that same untrustworthy vaccine. One cannot help but wonder whether stupid campaign statements and egregious subsequent flip-flopping by high-ranking Democrats might be stifling inoculation rates among Black and Hispanic Americans. A good portion of Trump's support probably came from people who are anti-vaxxers, against all vaccines. The vaccine issue was probably less important than other issues for such people. Wilky, your clear and disturbing partisanship is disappointing. Be better. "Democratic vice presidential nominee Kamala Harris said she wouldn't take President Donald Trump’s word on the reliability of any coronavirus vaccine released before the election. Asked in an upcoming interview with CNN if she planned to get a vaccine potentially distributed ahead of November, Harris demurred.
“I will say that I would not trust Donald Trump and it would have to be a credible source of information that talks about the efficacy and the reliability of whatever he’s talking about. I will not take his word for it.”
There is no flip flopping here. The vaccine that came out did not bypass safety review, the FDA approved it and it was put in use after validation of it's clinical trials. What did not happen, as what was implied, is Trump didn't exert leverage to mask trial results, or bypass trials, bypass or pressure FDA into results and push out a drug. And lets be clear, this is coming on the heels of Trump blithering about "getting the UV on the inside", him shilling a wildly unproven and untested treatment in hydroxychloroquine as a wunder cure that completely failed and then forcing HHS to distribute remdesivir on hospitals, which was largely equally ineffective, overly expensive, and was a logistical nightmare due to botched HHS rollouts. Trump had routinely proven himself to be a person that argued with his advisers, contradicted consensus medical science, and continued to jump from one miracle cure to another, all while continuing to simultaneously down play the magnitude of it. So not gonna lie, I'd want someone else telling me it was okay too. What utterly amazing me about you Wilky, in almost any topic, you display the ability to read and analyze the facts and data and come to logical conclusions, objective conclusions, usually without bias or at least minimal bias. If there is even a hint of politics involved, you jam your head so far up your own ass you are re-chewing breakfast. I am utterly astounded. I would draw you attention to the irony of this whole thing being I never implicated a political party is to blame. I implicated lizard-brained mouthbreathers are to blame, which can and does include anybody and everyone that would deny the major majority advice of science, doctors and health experts. You are the one that took immediate and serious offense because you read it to mean I was directing this solely at republicans and/or Trump supporters. Sure, they are included, if they are, in fact, lizard brained mouthbreathers... but they are not the exclusive population. And I think the majority of posters here were picking up what I was putting down. Dumb people being dumb is a problem. You are the one that went on the immediate offended offensive because my post was cutting way too close to home for where your political ideology lies and you cannot help be make it clear that it is literally anything in this universe's fault but republicans. It is like a compulsion or something. I am not going to sit here and fight a pedantic fight about who is to really blame because one person's feeler's got hurt that I was overly mean and possibly hinting that a group of people he likes might be causing a problem. If there is one thing I have little tolerance for, it is people that set aside better judgement and reason for political party allegiance. I am clearly a liberal minded person, but I will not hesitate for one second to toss Democrats the absolute f%#* under the bus if they are, in my opinion, in error, and 6 months into Biden, I have a lot of grievances. The absolute most unpatriotic, unamerican, uninformed, most f%#*ing lizard brained mouthbreather thing anybody can ever do is swear unwavering loyalty to a political party, all of which are run by people that would not piss you out if you were on fire. The goal of any political party is to make you their unthinking loyal subject. to make you their bitch to do with as they please such that they can always do as they please. It is the never ending pursuit of power that they should not have and be owned by the people. Never forget that at all times they should answer to you. Wilky, I feel you spend an awful lot of time carrying their water on these boards...
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billsaab
Freshman
Retired. Live in SW Washington on 73/4 Acres.
Posts: 589
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Post by billsaab on Jun 24, 2021 17:24:29 GMT -8
Wow reading through all this and politicizing sickens Me. So I will say a couple things. 1 I chose to get the Johnson and Johnson Vaccine. As did my wife. Both I’n March in California. I detest Masks period. They do nothing. Young People have little risk of getting COVID. Now CDC says risky for the Younger Teen etc. Parents have a right to Explore and decide. I am fine with it. I do not wish to see Youth harmed. Tired of reading this garbage. Talk Sports.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Jun 24, 2021 22:44:37 GMT -8
Black and Hispanic Americans have the lowest vaccination rates. Kamala Harris stated before and during the Vice-Presidential debate that she would not trust a Trump vaccine. Two months later, she was taking that same untrustworthy vaccine. One cannot help but wonder whether stupid campaign statements and egregious subsequent flip-flopping by high-ranking Democrats might be stifling inoculation rates among Black and Hispanic Americans. A good portion of Trump's support probably came from people who are anti-vaxxers, against all vaccines. The vaccine issue was probably less important than other issues for such people. Wilky, your clear and disturbing partisanship is disappointing. Be better. "Democratic vice presidential nominee Kamala Harris said she wouldn't take President Donald Trump’s word on the reliability of any coronavirus vaccine released before the election. Asked in an upcoming interview with CNN if she planned to get a vaccine potentially distributed ahead of November, Harris demurred.
“I will say that I would not trust Donald Trump and it would have to be a credible source of information that talks about the efficacy and the reliability of whatever he’s talking about. I will not take his word for it.”
There is no flip flopping here. The vaccine that came out did not bypass safety review, the FDA approved it and it was put in use after validation of it's clinical trials. What did not happen, as what was implied, is Trump didn't exert leverage to mask trial results, or bypass trials, bypass or pressure FDA into results and push out a drug. And lets be clear, this is coming on the heels of Trump blithering about "getting the UV on the inside", him shilling a wildly unproven and untested treatment in hydroxychloroquine as a wunder cure that completely failed and then forcing HHS to distribute remdesivir on hospitals, which was largely equally ineffective, overly expensive, and was a logistical nightmare due to botched HHS rollouts. Trump had routinely proven himself to be a person that argued with his advisers, contradicted consensus medical science, and continued to jump from one miracle cure to another, all while continuing to simultaneously down play the magnitude of it. So not gonna lie, I'd want someone else telling me it was okay too. What utterly amazing me about you Wilky, in almost any topic, you display the ability to read and analyze the facts and data and come to logical conclusions, objective conclusions, usually without bias or at least minimal bias. If there is even a hint of politics involved, you jam your head so far up your own ass you are re-chewing breakfast. I am utterly astounded. I would draw you attention to the irony of this whole thing being I never implicated a political party is to blame. I implicated lizard-brained mouthbreathers are to blame, which can and does include anybody and everyone that would deny the major majority advice of science, doctors and health experts. You are the one that took immediate and serious offense because you read it to mean I was directing this solely at republicans and/or Trump supporters. Sure, they are included, if they are, in fact, lizard brained mouthbreathers... but they are not the exclusive population. And I think the majority of posters here were picking up what I was putting down. Dumb people being dumb is a problem. You are the one that went on the immediate offended offensive because my post was cutting way too close to home for where your political ideology lies and you cannot help be make it clear that it is literally anything in this universe's fault but republicans. It is like a compulsion or something. I am not going to sit here and fight a pedantic fight about who is to really blame because one person's feeler's got hurt that I was overly mean and possibly hinting that a group of people he likes might be causing a problem. If there is one thing I have little tolerance for, it is people that set aside better judgement and reason for political party allegiance. I am clearly a liberal minded person, but I will not hesitate for one second to toss Democrats the absolute f%#* under the bus if they are, in my opinion, in error, and 6 months into Biden, I have a lot of grievances. The absolute most unpatriotic, unamerican, uninformed, most f%#*ing lizard brained mouthbreather thing anybody can ever do is swear unwavering loyalty to a political party, all of which are run by people that would not piss you out if you were on fire. The goal of any political party is to make you their unthinking loyal subject. to make you their bitch to do with as they please such that they can always do as they please. It is the never ending pursuit of power that they should not have and be owned by the people. Never forget that at all times they should answer to you. Wilky, I feel you spend an awful lot of time carrying their water on these boards... Kamala Harris said what she said multiple times in multiple different ways. Biden also was not helpful in messaging during the campaign. I do not buy polling in a vacuum, but I buy trends. I would posit that there is a carryover in the reluctance in certain communities and a lot of that was unhelpful messaging from 8-9 months ago. I think that Trump was talking about a biliblanket or something to that effect, which I thought was an interesting take. He did not articulate himself perfectly in that instance, though, and was correctly ridiculed. The hydroxychloroquine nonsense was also correctly pilloried. Stupid garbage. Wildly unehlpful. Everything that I have heard about remdesivir is great, saving some nonsense that came out of the WHO. Trump and company may have been handled better, and you could probably speak to that. But, if Trump's actions helped one person, that is great and should not be denigrated. Hopefully, I come to logical conclusions and objective conclusions, with minimal bias, even with regards to politics. My original point to your original post was that I do not believe that lizard brains and mouth breathers are the primary driver in people not currently being vaccinated. And that has been my point all along. I generally agree with you about political parties. I disagree with you about aims, especially with regards to Republicans, but also with Democrats. I do not think that either of the parties is really with it enough to have the aims as described. There are probably elements within each that have those aims, which is unfortunate. The problem with political parties is that the political arms of each are largely made up of lizard-brained mouth-breathers, who spend far more time finger-pointing and playing games to try and stay in DC than actually working to help improve any of our lives. As for you, I do not know you, but I have an idea in my head about the individual that you are. And that idea may be wildly inaccurate. And if I am speaking out of ignorance, I apologize. I perceive you to be a very intelligent person, who has a good heart. However, I perceived that you are primarily consuming one side of a story and are allowing that story to color your opinions and, more galling on this board, the way that you convey those opinions. I was merely letting you and everyone else that reads your post and mine that there is another side to that story. That may be a redundant waste of time to some or even most. I do not know. But if I can help give at least one person something to chew on, whether they ultimately agree with me or not, then I consider this all time well spent. I try and post my thoughts and opinions on here. I prefer sports, but people occasionally slip other stuff in. And if I am in a mood, I will interject. I feel like I let most of it go. Others may disagree.
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Jun 25, 2021 7:47:07 GMT -8
First of all, Trump blew it on the bleach comment, second of all there are a lot of biased people, and a lot of biased media, and a lot of people who didn't know better, that didn't bother to look up if UV light treatment using endotracheal catheters as a covid treatment was actually being looked at. It was- www.news-medical.net/news/20210309/Ultraviolet-light-therapy-reduces-viral-load-in-critically-ill-COVID-19-patients.aspx This article is from about a month BEFORE Trump made the comment, and I've seen another article stating he'd been briefed prior to his comments. Also, on the bleach thing, he may have been briefed on this: journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0233947 or some other sort of blood treatment. Presidents who don't necessarily understand science or know how to articulate science probably should keep their mouths shut, especially where there are people looking to parse every word the President says looking for so called "lies".
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