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Post by lebaneaver on Jun 21, 2021 12:15:28 GMT -8
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Post by beavobill on Jun 21, 2021 12:19:50 GMT -8
the value of room and board and education as well as the royalty should all be taxable income.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Jun 21, 2021 13:08:01 GMT -8
the value of room and board and education as well as the royalty should all be taxable income. totally agree. So many students end up with tons of student debt, many can't even afford food. Whoosh. beavobill is talking about student-athletes. If student-athletes are not amateurs and can be paid, then all benefits that they receive should properly be taxable income. As usual, a few will prosper at the expense of the many. I will miss this all, when this is all gone. Oh well, we had a good run.
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Post by mbabeav on Jun 21, 2021 13:39:24 GMT -8
totally agree. So many students end up with tons of student debt, many can't even afford food. Whoosh. beavobill is talking about student-athletes. If student-athletes are not amateurs and can be paid, then all benefits that they receive should properly be taxable income. As usual, a few will prosper at the expense of the many. I will miss this all, when this is all gone. Oh well, we had a good run. I predict a two track path forward. The "basics" - kept as tax free scholarship, and the cadillac plan where any additional items are treated by the system as some form of income. Either way, how does this affect all the other scholarship sports - I mean in baseball all they can give you is normally a partial, but if you are good enough, well, throw in all those side benefits and see if you'll sign that pro contract right out of high school.
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Post by badwack on Jun 21, 2021 13:46:40 GMT -8
Soo much for women's sports! How do they generate revenue to pay the athletes?
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Post by mbabeav on Jun 22, 2021 10:06:06 GMT -8
Soo much for women's sports! How do they generate revenue to pay the athletes? It's called tapping into a donor base. You want that 5 star - contribute to her off season studies in Europe, etc.
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Post by bennyorange on Jun 22, 2021 10:21:54 GMT -8
The end of college football as we've known it in my opinion but then again I'm a crotchety old man. Amateur sports has been wildly popular because it was "amateur". Every move to make it look and feel more like the pro's only serves to reduce my affinity for it.
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Post by grackle on Jun 22, 2021 10:24:33 GMT -8
All this will do is ensure that the best athletes gravitate EVEN MORE than now to the richest schools. Not good for the OSUs and WSUs of this world.
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Post by atownbeaver on Jun 22, 2021 10:36:54 GMT -8
Soo much for women's sports! How do they generate revenue to pay the athletes? It's called tapping into a donor base. You want that 5 star - contribute to her off season studies in Europe, etc. This will be a disaster for small schools, for small media market schools etc. Because what is a "modest educational-related payment?" that is gloriously undefined and nebulous. But if it goes the way it is expected, athletes will be able to profit from their likeness and receive literal paychecks or some for of revenue sharing. Many people argue this great for the athletes, and I admit, I agree. it IS great for the athlete... But it is terrible for the school overall and for unpopular sports. It will further drive a wedge between the revenue generating sports and the rest of them, It has the makings of massive Title IX implication when you end up needing to pay a football or basketball player thousands of dollars, but can't justify paying a Women's crew member the same... In college, your mass appeal is, in part, driven on your TV time and your schools market presence. Corvallis and Pullman do not have that. Oregon State does not have Great Uncle Phil in their back pocket to fire up the Nike machine and use their leverage to put their guys apparel on every store in the nation. Guys, Oregon State is f%#*ed. Washington State is f%#*ed. all mid-majors are f%#*ed. Parity is gone and any hope we ever had at playoffs in football is f%#*ed. I don't want to be a debbie downer, but I see no way this doesn't go the way all capitalist things go: the haves take everything, the have nots are f%#*ed. Worse, pair this with the better transfer rules, now we can have the joy of developing a player from an unknown to a star only to have them transfer an LA school or a legacy program so they can cash in on the better media exposure for a year before they are drafted. Yeah... we are absolutely f%#*ed. And, of course, I think that in itself begs and honest conversation about the time and the place for "fair market wages". and an honest conversation about capitalism. I am all for a person going out and making their money... don't get me wrong. I am also vehemently opposed to the wins and losses on my football field or basketball court being bought. and that is what will happen. It is why everybody hates the Yankees if you are not a fan. It is why everybody hates the Lakers, if you are not a fan. there are no ambivalent Yankees people. You love them or you hate them. because they buy championships. You love the Lakers or you hate them, because they buy championships. That is one of the current biggest criticism about the NBA (though this year is a huge outlier and honestly very refreshing) that championship super teams are bought. The NFL? well, that salary cap thing is an interesting idea... can that work in line with what SCOTUS just ruled? can you cap "fair market rate" given that Justice Kavanaugh wrote in his opinion: "...cannot justify the NCAA's decision to build a massive money-raising enterprise on the backs of student athletes who are not fairly compensated. Nowhere else in America can businesses get away with agreeing not to pay their workers a fair market rate," he said, adding: "The NCAA is not above the law." (I'd also challenge Kavanaugh to defend $7.25/hr as being fair market rate... but that is another conversation) Honestly, I think the only way to unf%#* this mess is that all D-1 schools profit share and agree upon a revenue sharing scheme, sort of like the NFL, to booster small market schools and to prevent the inevitable: east coast big market schools from dominating all the talent moreseo than they already do.
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Post by Judge Smails on Jun 22, 2021 10:47:41 GMT -8
Agree about most of your post, but NBA has a salary cap, so the Lakers can’t exactly buy championships anymore. You spend big money on 2 or 3 stars and the rest of the guys are supporting players. It backfires if your stars get hurt because there’s a huge drop off in talent. That’s why the Nets and Lakers are out this year.
That is also why MLB needs a salary cap, so the Yankees can’t but every guy they want.
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Post by sparty on Jun 22, 2021 11:55:55 GMT -8
Schools with large donors involved in athletics will be the winners in all of this. Fun while it lasted.
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Post by 93beav on Jun 22, 2021 13:03:07 GMT -8
It's called tapping into a donor base. You want that 5 star - contribute to her off season studies in Europe, etc. This will be a disaster for small schools, for small media market schools etc. Because what is a "modest educational-related payment?" that is gloriously undefined and nebulous. But if it goes the way it is expected, athletes will be able to profit from their likeness and receive literal paychecks or some for of revenue sharing. Many people argue this great for the athletes, and I admit, I agree. it IS great for the athlete... But it is terrible for the school overall and for unpopular sports. It will further drive a wedge between the revenue generating sports and the rest of them, It has the makings of massive Title IX implication when you end up needing to pay a football or basketball player thousands of dollars, but can't justify paying a Women's crew member the same... In college, your mass appeal is, in part, driven on your TV time and your schools market presence. Corvallis and Pullman do not have that. Oregon State does not have Great Uncle Phil in their back pocket to fire up the Nike machine and use their leverage to put their guys apparel on every store in the nation. Guys, Oregon State is f%#*ed. Washington State is f%#*ed. all mid-majors are f%#*ed. Parity is gone and any hope we ever had at playoffs in football is f%#*ed. I don't want to be a debbie downer, but I see no way this doesn't go the way all capitalist things go: the haves take everything, the have nots are f%#*ed. Worse, pair this with the better transfer rules, now we can have the joy of developing a player from an unknown to a star only to have them transfer an LA school or a legacy program so they can cash in on the better media exposure for a year before they are drafted. Yeah... we are absolutely f%#*ed. And, of course, I think that in itself begs and honest conversation about the time and the place for "fair market wages". and an honest conversation about capitalism. I am all for a person going out and making their money... don't get me wrong. I am also vehemently opposed to the wins and losses on my football field or basketball court being bought. and that is what will happen. It is why everybody hates the Yankees if you are not a fan. It is why everybody hates the Lakers, if you are not a fan. there are no ambivalent Yankees people. You love them or you hate them. because they buy championships. You love the Lakers or you hate them, because they buy championships. That is one of the current biggest criticism about the NBA (though this year is a huge outlier and honestly very refreshing) that championship super teams are bought. The NFL? well, that salary cap thing is an interesting idea... can that work in line with what SCOTUS just ruled? can you cap "fair market rate" given that Justice Kavanaugh wrote in his opinion: "...cannot justify the NCAA's decision to build a massive money-raising enterprise on the backs of student athletes who are not fairly compensated. Nowhere else in America can businesses get away with agreeing not to pay their workers a fair market rate," he said, adding: "The NCAA is not above the law." (I'd also challenge Kavanaugh to defend $7.25/hr as being fair market rate... but that is another conversation) Honestly, I think the only way to unf%#* this mess is that all D-1 schools profit share and agree upon a revenue sharing scheme, sort of like the NFL, to booster small market schools and to prevent the inevitable: east coast big market schools from dominating all the talent moreseo than they already do. The cap is an interesting idea, but I'm more likely to believe that certain NCAA members will just form their own independent leagues if this keep spiraling. Why would the big schools want to be stopped when they can generate revenue for the rest of the college through athletics?
There are so many downstream implications and possibilities with this. I honestly wonder if we should pause Reser expansion while we see what plays out. I could see some schools opting to return everything back to an academic level with 1 or 2 sports at most that just self-fund at whatever level they can afford - they won't be able to pay athletes to remain competitive in any minor sports. Maybe even realignment among the conferences to pool small schools together and big schools together to keep the $$$ spend nearly equivalent.
Women's sports are another issue. When a women's basketball or softball player makes less than the counterparts on the men's side, in terms of "additional pay", you'll have to pony up to equalize that. Which again means more money out-flowing. Without raising ticket prices radically, which won't happen, I think ultimately you'll see a reduction in number of sports offered and number of schools offering sports (at least a full contingent).
Or who knows, maybe it'll just be 6-7 schools in a super-compensated league and everyone else stays the same. I have my doubts.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Jun 22, 2021 13:40:38 GMT -8
It's called tapping into a donor base. You want that 5 star - contribute to her off season studies in Europe, etc. This will be a disaster for small schools, for small media market schools etc. Because what is a "modest educational-related payment?" that is gloriously undefined and nebulous. But if it goes the way it is expected, athletes will be able to profit from their likeness and receive literal paychecks or some for of revenue sharing. Many people argue this great for the athletes, and I admit, I agree. it IS great for the athlete... But it is terrible for the school overall and for unpopular sports. It will further drive a wedge between the revenue generating sports and the rest of them, It has the makings of massive Title IX implication when you end up needing to pay a football or basketball player thousands of dollars, but can't justify paying a Women's crew member the same... In college, your mass appeal is, in part, driven on your TV time and your schools market presence. Corvallis and Pullman do not have that. Oregon State does not have Great Uncle Phil in their back pocket to fire up the Nike machine and use their leverage to put their guys apparel on every store in the nation. Guys, Oregon State is f%#*ed. Washington State is f%#*ed. all mid-majors are f%#*ed. Parity is gone and any hope we ever had at playoffs in football is f%#*ed. I don't want to be a debbie downer, but I see no way this doesn't go the way all capitalist things go: the haves take everything, the have nots are f%#*ed. Worse, pair this with the better transfer rules, now we can have the joy of developing a player from an unknown to a star only to have them transfer an LA school or a legacy program so they can cash in on the better media exposure for a year before they are drafted. Yeah... we are absolutely f%#*ed. And, of course, I think that in itself begs and honest conversation about the time and the place for "fair market wages". and an honest conversation about capitalism. I am all for a person going out and making their money... don't get me wrong. I am also vehemently opposed to the wins and losses on my football field or basketball court being bought. and that is what will happen. It is why everybody hates the Yankees if you are not a fan. It is why everybody hates the Lakers, if you are not a fan. there are no ambivalent Yankees people. You love them or you hate them. because they buy championships. You love the Lakers or you hate them, because they buy championships. That is one of the current biggest criticism about the NBA (though this year is a huge outlier and honestly very refreshing) that championship super teams are bought. The NFL? well, that salary cap thing is an interesting idea... can that work in line with what SCOTUS just ruled? can you cap "fair market rate" given that Justice Kavanaugh wrote in his opinion: "...cannot justify the NCAA's decision to build a massive money-raising enterprise on the backs of student athletes who are not fairly compensated. Nowhere else in America can businesses get away with agreeing not to pay their workers a fair market rate," he said, adding: "The NCAA is not above the law." (I'd also challenge Kavanaugh to defend $7.25/hr as being fair market rate... but that is another conversation)Honestly, I think the only way to unf%#* this mess is that all D-1 schools profit share and agree upon a revenue sharing scheme, sort of like the NFL, to booster small market schools and to prevent the inevitable: east coast big market schools from dominating all the talent moreseo than they already do. The minimum wage is illusory. The higher the minimum wage is, the less the dollar is worth, i.e. the higher the minimum wage, the less that individuals with static salaries, like you and me, actually make. That is all to say that by promoting a higher minimum wage, you are probably working against your own self-interest. That is unless you have a union agreement that is somehow tied to the minimum wage. Then, you might benefit. (Large unions typically push to increase the minimum wage for this reason.) Typically, though, the only thing that an increase to the minimum wage usually effectuates is to wipe out aged individuals on fixed incomes with increased inflation. Plus, only 21 of the 50 states actually use the Federal minimum wage. The minimum wage is higher in the other 29 states. And Alaska, Arizona, California, Colorado, Hawai'i, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon and Washington are in the 29 states with a minimum wage that is above the Federal minimum wage. As for the NFL salary cap, the NFL salary cap is an agreed-to compromise between NFL owners and the NFL players' union. The issue with college athletes is that they do not have a union that represents their interests. The same is true of the NBA salary cap. I agree 100% with everything else that you wrote there.
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Post by beaverstever on Jun 22, 2021 14:02:56 GMT -8
A lot of negativity in this thread. I don't know what all it will mean for, but I do know Ken Simonton was a big advocate for this change. I also know NCAA has exploited the label of 'amateur' to their advantage throughout its history, often in a very uneven and illogical manner.
I also know that 'paying' athletes have been a thing for a long time, and has been putting OSU at a huge disadvantage in football and mens basketball for ages; will moving the payments to athletes/their families above the table be worse for OSU? The NCAA has been completely impotent at actually creating any level playing field; their enforcement has been comical and they have no incentive to actually crack down on the obvious offenders, as those same programs drive their revenues. It's a system that forces them to bite the hand that feeds them, so they are intentionally incompetent with welding meaningful punishment. Remember, OSU Basketball vacated wins and forfeited scholarships for what was minor offenses compared to what major programs do on a regular basis. So the current system actually makes it even worse for the OSU/WSUs of the world - we are the ones that get punished for breaking the rules, because the NCAA can afford to make an example out of us when we did try to compete in the same fashion as the 'haves'.
Besides, for a program like OSU women's basketball that receives relatively great support, it's very possible it could be a program run in the black (especially if direct program donations were tracked to it's specific budget) - we could easily be one of the 'haves' for that sport.
I for one am happy to do away with the charade that college athletes are 'amateurs'. It's fun to beat the Yankees with 1/10th their payroll; now maybe we'll actually know what SEC teams' football payroll looks like, as it obviously exists.
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EOBeav
Freshman
Posts: 499
Grad Year: 1989, 2002
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Post by EOBeav on Jun 22, 2021 15:46:09 GMT -8
Y'all act as if the big schools haven't been paying their best players this whole time.
And tax student-athlete's tuition/room/board? C'mon, man.
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