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Post by mbabeav on Jun 29, 2021 11:36:38 GMT -8
Whoosh. beavobill is talking about student-athletes. If student-athletes are not amateurs and can be paid, then all benefits that they receive should properly be taxable income. As usual, a few will prosper at the expense of the many. I will miss this all, when this is all gone. Oh well, we had a good run. Except educational expenses are deductable from gross income. So, would you rather not have them taxable OR increase IRS bureaucracy to query athletes claiming deductions? Anything they would earn from licensing, sponsorships or appearances is already taxable. Additions to the current basic schollies, I don't know.
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Post by atownbeaver on Jun 29, 2021 12:23:10 GMT -8
And a lot of people go tens of thousands of dollars in debt for the same degree with no guarantee of a job and no where near the networking connection being associated with a sports team gets you. A lot of people go tens of thousands of dollars in debt, while working night and weekend jobs on the free time. Sports gets a lot of attention because it is easy to see the money, it is easy to see the insane coaching salaries and the clear disparities involved. But less clear is that these disparities exist on the academic side. A notable example is the much publicized blue pigment discovered by OSU professor Mas Subramanian, or probably more accurately his grad student Andrew Smith. While OSU hasn't really released the details of the licensing arrangements they have made with both the Shepard Color Company and AMD for electronics use, but Bloomberg referred to these pigment breakthroughs as "billion dollar colors". To be sure, Subramanian is a distinguished professor at OSU and one of the highest paid ones at over $230,000 per year. But for Andrew Smith, his reward was basically his PhD and a nice engineer job in industry. His reward was not royalties or any kind of payment inline with the discovery and the revenue generated by this pigment. Don't get me wrong, it made his career... but thesis of the ruling by the supreme court is players to not receive compensation equitable to revenue they generate. Well, neither do grad students. Neither do most engineers in any setting, public or private. My bottom line is I feel this ruling creates more problems than it solves. maybe for better, but likely for worse. The idea that an organization would reap huge benefits from an individual contrinutor while that individual contributor does not reap in a representative way, is like the basis of all successful organizations. Another example from academia, specifically Oregon State. NuScale power was born out of OSU's nuclear Engineering program, specifically Dr. Reyes, who left to start NuScale. The nuclear industry is extremely slow, so NuScale hasn't built a power plant yet, but they are on the cusp of it, and made history being the first SMR to get approval from the Nuclear Regulatory Commision, and in fact the first approval of any design in many years. Dr. Reyes, his graduate students, all of the people who work for NuScale, OSU... how much will they profit from a successful NuScale? I am sure they will all be fairly paid, and can all afford a house in Corvallis, but none of them will be seeing the potential billions of dollars, that will mosty be going to early investors and large share holders. and of course we will ALL benefit if Nuclear power can overtake carbon based power, and maybe we can start working on not having 108 degree days in Oregon Another Corvallis based example. The Inkect printer head was invented and designed right here in the facility off of circle blvd. A $100 Billion dollar a year buisness was started right here in corvallis. Did any of those inventors and engineers become billionaires? Nope. But have we ALL benefited from the many millions of dollars of salary, buisness, spinoffs, and infrastructure HP brought in. I certainly have, I live in this town because my dad got a job at HP many moons ago. So were those professors, inventors, and engineers taken advantage of? I don't know, maybe? They certainly wouldn't have been able to do what they did without the support of the organizations they did it for though. Same with a football player. He has to have a team to play for or his INL becomes worthless. I certainly want players to have more ability to profit from their INL, but these are some muddy waters that will need to be carefully navigated, and quite frankly I don't trust anyone in the college sports world to be able to do it. Raise your hand if you have ever heard of the name Jon Vaught. He is the dude that co-invented the current model of the Thermal Inkjet printer at the Corvallis plant. Around the same time an engineer at Canon, Ichiro Endo, patented similar designs, so both Vaught and Endo are generally credited with shared inventor status. To wit they shared a prestigious mechanical engineering award for the shared achievement. Vaught was paid well of course, but as you note, at the height of the inkjet days, in the late 1990's and early 2000's HP was reaping in well over $5 billion a year in ink cartridges. Heck in just Corvallis I was working on a later line that would spit out a million cartridges a month. Vaught never ascended into executive management or anything. he was happy to be an inventor. I am sure he had an abundance of stock options and was quite wealthy by normal person standards... he left HP after a number of years and started his own company. but... the bottom line story is that the dude that basically invented the thermal inkjet printer did not become Bill Gates rich. did not become Bezos rich... despite his invention and the numerous improvements he made to it over the years, being responsible for likely hundreds of billions in revenue for HP directly and also via licensing and royalties with other brands, including Epson, NEC and a few others. I also want to point out, it is overall a weak argument to say life is unfair to other people so it should be unfair to athletes too... We should recognize the somewhat fundamental hypocrisy of the SCOTUS ruling and how it likely should extend well beyond athletics. and... it could really shake things up.
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Post by steelbvr on Jun 29, 2021 12:25:21 GMT -8
I am sure the IRS would view the tuition and living expenses as income since the athletes would be employees if they are paid. The max deduction for education is around $4K if I remember correctly. Total cost of a current scholarship taking into account for Tuition, Book, Room and board with tutors is around $50K since most are out of state. The IRS will want their chunk.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Jun 29, 2021 12:34:35 GMT -8
Whoosh. beavobill is talking about student-athletes. If student-athletes are not amateurs and can be paid, then all benefits that they receive should properly be taxable income. As usual, a few will prosper at the expense of the many. I will miss this all, when this is all gone. Oh well, we had a good run. Except educational expenses are deductible from gross income. So, would you rather not have them taxable OR increase IRS bureaucracy to query athletes claiming deductions? But, if you are profiting, arguably, educational expenses would not be deductible as educational expenses. They would be business expenses. Then, you get to a point that the universities are going to have to withhold some of the athletic scholarships to pay for dental, medical, vision, FIT, FICA, Medicare, state taxes, etc. I would rather that amateurism rules were maintained personally. The logical conclusion of all of this is too stupid to contemplate.
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Post by jdogge on Jun 29, 2021 14:25:06 GMT -8
I am sure the IRS would view the tuition and living expenses as income since the athletes would be employees if they are paid. The max deduction for education is around $4K if I remember correctly. Total cost of a current scholarship taking into account for Tuition, Book, Room and board with tutors is around $50K since most are out of state. The IRS will want their chunk. All they'd hav to do is form an LLC and run everything through there. 100% deductability.
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Post by Judge Smails on Jun 29, 2021 14:33:54 GMT -8
I am sure the IRS would view the tuition and living expenses as income since the athletes would be employees if they are paid. The max deduction for education is around $4K if I remember correctly. Total cost of a current scholarship taking into account for Tuition, Book, Room and board with tutors is around $50K since most are out of state. The IRS will want their chunk. All they'd hav to do is form an LLC and run everything through there. 100% deductability. Tax burden for the LLC still flows through to the member of the LLC. LLC's are used as a liability shield. The net income of the LLC still flows through to the members as ordinary income. Unless you can factor in a bunch of non-cash expenses, like depreciation and amortization, it's not going to help you a lot with taxes. Maybe they'll figure out a way to start depreciating the athletes.
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Post by jdogge on Jun 29, 2021 15:06:53 GMT -8
All they'd hav to do is form an LLC and run everything through there. 100% deductability. Tax burden for the LLC still flows through to the member of the LLC. LLC's are used as a liability shield. The net income of the LLC still flows through to the members as ordinary income. Unless you can factor in a bunch of non-cash expenses, like depreciation and amortization, it's not going to help you a lot with taxes. Maybe they'll figure out a way to start depreciating the athletes. "Tax burden for the LLC still flows through to the member of the LLC." Yes, I understand. But sole propietors cannot deduct normal business expenses, owners of LLCs, can. This is what came out of Herr Trumpsky's 2017 gift to the 1%. Sole proprietors could not deduct normal business expenses. At that time accountants serving the film industry advocated creating LLCs ans a means of reducing taxable income. An LLC is more than just a liability shield.
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beaver94
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Post by beaver94 on Jun 29, 2021 15:17:33 GMT -8
Tax burden for the LLC still flows through to the member of the LLC. LLC's are used as a liability shield. The net income of the LLC still flows through to the members as ordinary income. Unless you can factor in a bunch of non-cash expenses, like depreciation and amortization, it's not going to help you a lot with taxes. Maybe they'll figure out a way to start depreciating the athletes. "Tax burden for the LLC still flows through to the member of the LLC." Yes, I understand. But sole propietors cannot deduct normal business expenses, owners of LLCs, can. This is what came out of Herr Trumpsky's 2017 gift to the 1%. Sole proprietors could not deduct normal business expenses. At that time accountants serving the film industry advocated creating LLCs ans a means of reducing taxable income. An LLC is more than just a liability shield. That sounds like a gift to anyone that is able to form an LLC. Not just the 1%.
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Post by Judge Smails on Jun 29, 2021 15:17:41 GMT -8
Tax burden for the LLC still flows through to the member of the LLC. LLC's are used as a liability shield. The net income of the LLC still flows through to the members as ordinary income. Unless you can factor in a bunch of non-cash expenses, like depreciation and amortization, it's not going to help you a lot with taxes. Maybe they'll figure out a way to start depreciating the athletes. "Tax burden for the LLC still flows through to the member of the LLC." Yes, I understand. But sole propietors cannot deduct normal business expenses, owners of LLCs, can. This is what came out of Herr Trumpsky's 2017 gift to the 1%. Sole proprietors could not deduct normal business expenses. At that time accountants serving the film industry advocated creating LLCs ans a means of reducing taxable income. An LLC is more than just a liability shield. I don't know where you heard this, but it is completely untrue. They only way you can reduce some tax liability through an LLC is to chose for it to be taxed like a corporation (which is separate procedure from creating the LLC and you have to meet specific requirements). If you elect to file an S or C corporation tax return for an LLC, you are taxed at corporate rates versus individual rates on the income from the LLC. But that type of tax filing has nothing to do with the benefits of an LLC. An LLC is just a liability shield. And Sole Proprietors can deduct normal business expenditures just like LLC's can. There was nothing trump did to change this.
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Post by seastape on Jun 29, 2021 15:33:47 GMT -8
Agreed, but I think athletes being able to sell their NIL is here to stay. I also think schools have to be able to afford an athletic department, and paying athletes beyond what has become the typical scholarship can really get out of hand...it's a fairness rule, like a salary cap. Schools like OSU and WSU are probably going to get crushed anyway...just like they are now...when it comes to recruiting. Doesnt change that the big markets and haves will just take more, but it shouldnt cost the schools any more money right? The player would be selling their INL rights to local companies to advertise, to ESPN, to Nike, etc. Right? That's the goal. We know the whole NIL thing is going to hurt the small schools with recruiting. Is there any way around that? At least we can do something that prevents the smaller schools from having to fold up their athletic departments because they can't keep up with the race.
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Post by jdogge on Jun 29, 2021 15:40:24 GMT -8
"Tax burden for the LLC still flows through to the member of the LLC." Yes, I understand. But sole propietors cannot deduct normal business expenses, owners of LLCs, can. This is what came out of Herr Trumpsky's 2017 gift to the 1%. Sole proprietors could not deduct normal business expenses. At that time accountants serving the film industry advocated creating LLCs ans a means of reducing taxable income. An LLC is more than just a liability shield. I don't know where you heard this, but it is completely untrue. They only way you can reduce some tax liability through an LLC is to chose for it to be taxed like a corporation (which is separate procedure from creating the LLC and you have to meet specific requirements). If you elect to file an S or C corporation tax return for an LLC, you are taxed at corporate rates versus individual rates on the income from the LLC. But that type of tax filing has nothing to do with the benefits of an LLC. An LLC is just a liability shield. And Sole Proprietors can deduct normal business expenditures just like LLC's can. There was nothing trump did to change this. Are you a tax accountant or tax attorney? But, notice I was speaking of the entertainment industry and the effects of the 2017 corporate givaway on those who were sole proprietors. Athletes might ... might ... be classified as members of the entertainment industry. Ordinary expenses -- legitimate office, thransportation, etc. -- are deductable. Education related to their profession, costumes, etc., are likely not.
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Jun 29, 2021 15:58:21 GMT -8
I don't know where you heard this, but it is completely untrue. They only way you can reduce some tax liability through an LLC is to chose for it to be taxed like a corporation (which is separate procedure from creating the LLC and you have to meet specific requirements). If you elect to file an S or C corporation tax return for an LLC, you are taxed at corporate rates versus individual rates on the income from the LLC. But that type of tax filing has nothing to do with the benefits of an LLC. An LLC is just a liability shield. And Sole Proprietors can deduct normal business expenditures just like LLC's can. There was nothing trump did to change this. Are you a tax accountant or tax attorney? Are you? I'm not, but I'm pretty sure you can deduct all sorts of normal business expenses as a sole proprietor. What I believe you can't do is deduct your own salary, your "salary" is basically your profits after earnings minus expenses. For this and other reasons forming LLCs are often recommended. I'm not sure Trump’s tax law changed anything in those regards, pretty much business as usual.
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Post by zeroposter on Jun 29, 2021 16:02:49 GMT -8
"Tax burden for the LLC still flows through to the member of the LLC." Yes, I understand. But sole propietors cannot deduct normal business expenses, owners of LLCs, can. This is what came out of Herr Trumpsky's 2017 gift to the 1%. Sole proprietors could not deduct normal business expenses. At that time accountants serving the film industry advocated creating LLCs ans a means of reducing taxable income. An LLC is more than just a liability shield. I don't know where you heard this, but it is completely untrue. They only way you can reduce some tax liability through an LLC is to chose for it to be taxed like a corporation (which is separate procedure from creating the LLC and you have to meet specific requirements). If you elect to file an S or C corporation tax return for an LLC, you are taxed at corporate rates versus individual rates on the income from the LLC. But that type of tax filing has nothing to do with the benefits of an LLC. An LLC is just a liability shield. And Sole Proprietors can deduct normal business expenditures just like LLC's can. There was nothing trump did to change this. As a small business owner for a good share of my life, Smails and drunk have it exactly right.
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Post by jdogge on Jun 29, 2021 16:18:03 GMT -8
Are you a tax accountant or tax attorney? Are you? I'm not, but I'm pretty sure you can deduct all sorts of normal business expenses as a sole proprietor. What I believe you can't do is deduct your own salary, your "salary" is basically your profits after earnings minus expenses. For this and other reasons forming LLCs are often recommended. I'm not sure Trump’s tax law changed anything in those regards, pretty much business as usual. No, I'm not. I pay accountants and attornies for that info.
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Post by jdogge on Jun 29, 2021 16:19:37 GMT -8
I don't know where you heard this, but it is completely untrue. They only way you can reduce some tax liability through an LLC is to chose for it to be taxed like a corporation (which is separate procedure from creating the LLC and you have to meet specific requirements). If you elect to file an S or C corporation tax return for an LLC, you are taxed at corporate rates versus individual rates on the income from the LLC. But that type of tax filing has nothing to do with the benefits of an LLC. An LLC is just a liability shield. And Sole Proprietors can deduct normal business expenditures just like LLC's can. There was nothing trump did to change this. As a small business owner for a good share of my life, Smails and drunk have it exactly right. Read my response to smails ... BTW, ever think ... maybe ... you got it wrong?
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