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Post by lotrader on Feb 22, 2021 14:15:10 GMT -8
I believe Charlie Creme will be revealing his bracketology at halftime of the Stanford vs Arizona game today. Will the Stanford Cardinals be a #1 seed in Charlie's reveal today? How many PAC-12 Teams will be in Charlie's 64-team field? 4,5,6?
I watch a lot of WCBB, and this year has been no exception. It has been a repeatable pattern that after the PAC-12 season gets rolling, every weekend any PAC-12 team seems to be able to beat any other PAC-12 team on a given day/night. As a result, the perception of the PAC-12 league seems to take a hit. And then, when the NCAA Tournament gets under way, the PAC-12 wins more games than any conference in the NCAA Tournament.
I expect the same, with the seeding of the PAC-12 Teams not getting the benefit of doubt, especially this year. My first thought is always, how many losses would UCONN, South Carolina, Baylor, Maryland, Louisville, or NC State have if they played in the PAC-12? Answer: More losses than they have now.
Would be interested to hear what others think, and, if I am just a homer for the PAC-12 WBB Conference?
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Post by beaveragain on Feb 22, 2021 15:10:15 GMT -8
The problem is the ooc schedule. Top ranked eastern teams have lots of medium ranked teams to play against so their schedule is ranked higher than pac-12 teams playing against Eastern Washington etc. The reality is that a top 10 team playing against a 90th, 190th or 290th ranked team is pretty much the same thing. But the strength of schedule rankings pretend that there is a huge difference. So the reason the west coast keeps doing well in the tournament vs the east coast is that our cream puff schedule hurts us relatively to the east coast cream puffs. So our teams are consistently under ranked.
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Post by beavheart on Feb 22, 2021 15:22:51 GMT -8
The problem is the ooc schedule. Top ranked eastern teams have lots of medium ranked teams to play against so their schedule is ranked higher than pac-12 teams playing against Eastern Washington etc. The reality is that a top 10 team playing against a 90th, 190th or 290th ranked team is pretty much the same thing. But the strength of schedule rankings pretend that there is a huge difference. So the reason the west coast keeps doing well in the tournament vs the east coast is that our cream puff schedule hurts us relatively to the east coast cream puffs. So our teams are consistently under ranked. ...which means we regularly get fewer and lower spots in the post season, and less opportunities to host. Year after year. Which diminishes our national perception and serves as a self-fulfilling prophecy to the rankings or ratings that put us there in the first place. This is happening in all sports that matter, and WBB might be the least offensive example of it. |
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Post by bvrbooster on Feb 22, 2021 16:58:01 GMT -8
This is a familiar complaint. There is some validity to it, but perhaps not as much as is given to it.
In 2019, the last year of the NCAA Tournament, the PAC 12 got 6 bids. The teams (with their seeding) were Stanford (2), Oregon (2), OSU (4), ASU (5), UCLA (6), and Cal (8). If you think back to the schools that were left out - USC, Washington, WSU, Utah, Colorado, and Arizona - only Arizona could have been considered to possibly have the resume to get in, but leaving them out was far from a travesty.
The PAC 12 does extremely well in the tournament, because, night after night, our teams face tougher opponents than do teams in other conferences. But, although we get large numbers to the Sweet 16 (18 in the last 4 tournaments), we never cut down the nets at tournament's end.
I think we generally get the right number. I sometimes question the seeding, but so do those who follow other conferences, I'm sure.
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Post by nwhoopfan on Feb 22, 2021 17:06:16 GMT -8
I think the Pac 12 is down this year compared to last year, but the entire country is down compared to last year. The top Pac 12 teams all have vulnerabilities, but NOBODY has impressed me that I've watched. Haven't seen much Big 10 action. But UConn, South Carolina and everybody else from the SEC, Louisville and NC State, none of them play consistently good basketball. Stanford is on par w/ any of them, and UCLA and Arizona could probably hang w/ them as well.
It's also always like this, but top Pac 12 teams struggling w/ the middle of the conference teams is a sign of weakness, but middle of the road SEC teams hanging w/ the top teams is a sign of how deep the conference is. I've never understood the double standard, but it's there.
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Post by nwhoopfan on Feb 22, 2021 17:08:02 GMT -8
While I agree some of the Pac 12 teams that get left out of the Tourney might not have done enough to earn a bid, it's pretty galling to get capped at 5 or 6 while the SEC might send 10, several of which definitely don't earn bids.
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Post by believeinthebeavs on Feb 22, 2021 17:40:46 GMT -8
While I agree some of the Pac 12 teams that get left out of the Tourney might not have done enough to earn a bid, it's pretty galling to get capped at 5 or 6 while the SEC might send 10, several of which definitely don't earn bids. Most of which lose on the first or second round.... |
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Post by beavheart on Feb 22, 2021 17:56:53 GMT -8
While I agree some of the Pac 12 teams that get left out of the Tourney might not have done enough to earn a bid, it's pretty galling to get capped at 5 or 6 while the SEC might send 10, several of which definitely don't earn bids. Most of which lose on the first or second round.... I think it was the last time we made the Elite 8 that Washington also made it that far, and they were one of the last teams in. It does matter that the middle of the Pac-12 is consistently left out of the post season to make room for the 8, 9, and 10th place teams from the SEC and ACC. |
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Post by believeinthebeavs on Feb 22, 2021 18:11:48 GMT -8
Most of which lose on the first or second round.... I think it was the last time we made the Elite 8 that Washington also made it that far, and they were one of the last teams in. It does matter that the middle of the Pac-12 is consistently left out of the post season to make room for the 8, 9, and 10th place teams from the SEC and ACC. IIRC, that year there was a third pac 12 team in the elite eight. |
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Post by nwhoopfan on Feb 22, 2021 18:53:17 GMT -8
I think it was the last time we made the Elite 8 that Washington also made it that far, and they were one of the last teams in. It does matter that the middle of the Pac-12 is consistently left out of the post season to make room for the 8, 9, and 10th place teams from the SEC and ACC. IIRC, that year there was a third pac 12 team in the elite eight. The Final 4 year? Washington was a 7 seed. Beat Stanford in the Regional Championship. Of course that was OSU's Final 4 also.
When the Beavs went to the Elite 8 w/ Gulich leading the way, the Huskies had already fallen off a cliff w/ Wynn.
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Post by beavheart on Feb 22, 2021 19:50:31 GMT -8
IIRC, that year there was a third pac 12 team in the elite eight. The Final 4 year? Washington was a 7 seed. Beat Stanford in the Regional Championship. Of course that was OSU's Final 4 also.
When the Beavs went to the Elite 8 w/ Gulich leading the way, the Huskies had already fallen off a cliff w/ Wynn.
That's right. Final four. I think they were the first 7 seed to make it that far or something like that. My memory isn't awesome, but now I do remember with some help that it was Kelsey Plum, and Osahor draining 3s through the tournament that get them there. Anyway, I feel like my point remains as Washington was the last or close to last Pac-12 team selected that year. |
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Post by bvrbooster on Feb 22, 2021 20:05:12 GMT -8
I don't recall Washington's seeding, but they finished the year ranked number 8 in the nation - we were #2, Stanford 11, UCLA 13, and ASU 16.
In the last 4 years there was a tournament, the Pac 12 sent a total of 24 teams (7 in 2017). The conference won 23 of 24 first round games (Cal lost in 2018), 18 of 23 second round games, and 10 of 18 third round games.
I imagine that, along the way, our teams beat the occasional 8th or 9th place SEC team. (One of our teams also beat some SEC team on their home court ending a 57 game tournament win streak there - just can't quite remember who.)
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Post by beavheart on Feb 23, 2021 9:53:23 GMT -8
I don't recall Washington's seeding, but they finished the year ranked number 8 in the nation - we were #2, Stanford 11, UCLA 13, and ASU 16. In the last 4 years there was a tournament, the Pac 12 sent a total of 24 teams (7 in 2017). The conference won 23 of 24 first round games (Cal lost in 2018), 18 of 23 second round games, and 10 of 18 third round games. I imagine that, along the way, our teams beat the occasional 8th or 9th place SEC team. (One of our teams also beat some SEC team on their home court ending a 57 game tournament win streak there - just can't quite remember who.) Thanks bvrbooster. I don't remember Washington being ranked that high, but no one has ever accused me of being iron clad with historical details. Not my forte. You know, we constantly hear about what all the talking heads think of this and that before the fact, but rarely does anyone take a close look (that I have seen) at how teams and conferences are doing relative to their hype and rankings before the post season. It would be interesting to see how the "big dog" conferences (ACC and SEC) are doing over time compared to the Pac-12 or anyone else since they are regularly getting 8 to 10 teams in the post season. The historical details challenged like me would like to know. |
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Post by wbosh15 on Feb 23, 2021 10:25:24 GMT -8
I don't recall Washington's seeding, but they finished the year ranked number 8 in the nation - we were #2, Stanford 11, UCLA 13, and ASU 16. In the last 4 years there was a tournament, the Pac 12 sent a total of 24 teams (7 in 2017). The conference won 23 of 24 first round games (Cal lost in 2018), 18 of 23 second round games, and 10 of 18 third round games. I imagine that, along the way, our teams beat the occasional 8th or 9th place SEC team. (One of our teams also beat some SEC team on their home court ending a 57 game tournament win streak there - just can't quite remember who.) Thanks bvrbooster. I don't remember Washington being ranked that high, but no one has ever accused me of being iron clad with historical details. Not my forte. You know, we constantly hear about what all the talking heads think of this and that before the fact, but rarely does anyone take a close look (that I have seen) at how teams and conferences are doing relative to their hype and rankings before the post season. It would be interesting to see how the "big dog" conferences (ACC and SEC) are doing over time compared to the Pac-12 or anyone else since they are regularly getting 8 to 10 teams in the post season. The historical details challenged like me would like to know. That was the ranking in the final poll. They got a big boost from making the final four. |
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Post by beavheart on Feb 23, 2021 12:25:39 GMT -8
Thanks bvrbooster. I don't remember Washington being ranked that high, but no one has ever accused me of being iron clad with historical details. Not my forte. You know, we constantly hear about what all the talking heads think of this and that before the fact, but rarely does anyone take a close look (that I have seen) at how teams and conferences are doing relative to their hype and rankings before the post season. It would be interesting to see how the "big dog" conferences (ACC and SEC) are doing over time compared to the Pac-12 or anyone else since they are regularly getting 8 to 10 teams in the post season. The historical details challenged like me would like to know. That was the ranking in the final poll. They got a big boost from making the final four. That rings a bell. I'm pretty sure they were unranked before the tournament, and were like the 5th or 6th place team in the Pac-12 that year (aka, "on the bubble"). I suppose my question really boils down to this - When is the last time the 5th or 6th place team from the 2 conferences that live at the top of the ratings ever did anything like that in the tournament? If these conferences are "so good" top to bottom, doesn't it stand to reason there would be a middling team from one of them that would make a run in the tournament? I can't remember one. By the way, I did some research. It was 2016. We won the conference regular season, but lost in the conference CCG (I think). Either way, we were the Pac-12 champs and were made a 2 seed in the tournament because there were 4 teams with 1 or no loses, which meant we had to go on the road when things got real (at Baylor in the elite 8). |
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