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Post by beaverstever on Dec 3, 2020 13:23:27 GMT -8
I see some rather random substitutions at odd times during the games! When we built the lead up to 10 , should have called a timeout and told them to build the lead, solid shots and no ‘stupid turnovers’ - instead , it was gone in a heartbeat . I wanted to see Potts again too - no sign 5 best guys on the floor Alatishe Calloo Lucas Tucker Ethan Last night Ethan was not one of the five best guys on the floor - not sure there were five. How did the hyped head-to-head of Thompson/Bonton go? ET: 9pts/7assists/5Rebs/5TOs/ - 3-11 shooting (27%) IB: 15Pts/7assists/4Rebs/2TOs - 4-18 shooting (22%)
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2ndGenBeaver
Sophomore
Posts: 1,803
Grad Year: 1991 (MS/CS) 1999 (PhD/CS)
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Post by 2ndGenBeaver on Dec 3, 2020 19:16:28 GMT -8
Well, I was quite encouraged in the first couple of games that we finally had some interesting talent that was watchable, and hopefully coachable. I have been turned off enough by lack of fundamentals and (perhaps completely my own) perceived bias towards "my three sons" in recent years to focus most of my attention on the WBB program. But this year, I was heartened by what I saw early, and intrigued by what the Beavers would look like minus two of the three sons.
Some of our troubles remain, however, and I fear most of them are rooted in coaching or lack thereof. The (record setting) travails of Ethan in terms of driving into triple teams or passing without a plan are chronicled elsewhere, so let's look at some of the other aspects - Zach was shooting 3s at a 60+% rate (after taking one under shot clock duress), and we didn't do much to free up and find the "hot hand". And the icy cold hands had no trouble continuing to attempt to shoot their way out of the slump with no regard to game situation. We had the advantage (or at least parity?) on length and talent in the paint, but didn't seem to want to take advantage of that. Lucas just needs to set his feet for a split second and he is much higher percentage of a shooter, but no one seems to calm/slow him down (or coach him up to not dump the ball off to a 7 footer at the arc on a fast break, but who's counting?). Thompson seems to be unable to speed down the court, ever, and has this very cool looking but quite slow saunter that he insisted on employing even when there were only 20 seconds left in the game with us down......as a senior leader, what you do matters, and imparting a sense of urgency to the team would be good (as would hitting free throws or cashing in a wide open layup and closing to within 1 point late). Few plays or touches were reserved for our younger, aggressive players like Alatishe. The older players still love the slow, lazy bounce passes.....
(I took beginning basketball from one Kelvin Sampson, and while he was discussing what we were doing for that day's class, he would casually be dribbling a basketball.....if any student's attention wandered, he would zip a pass right at the distracted student's head. His reasoning, as he would explain once or twice every class period as a dazed student shook off the effects of the basketball to the cranium, was that if you were on the basketball court and were unprepared for a basketball pass, you were really in the wrong place. Adding points for difficulty was the fact that during the beginning basketball class there was also an aerobics class going on over on the other side of the gym, and most of us were watching other things bouncing (mining school, highest concentration of women on campus were thus located across the court, making for a very compelling distraction.......but I digress....oh, I remember the point!!! Not a one of Sampson's passes were of the lazy bounce pass variety. :-))
Anyway, a lot of this is coaching the players and how they play. And it's just one game, and it's early, and there are floods and locusts and fire engines...... But it was a very winnable game. But our coach, who admittedly really cares for the kids, keeps them out of trouble, graduates them, says the right things, classy guy, is pretty good all around, came up short. I hope he can make some corrections, but I am worried about a multi-year trend that says otherwise. And I am starting to wonder what the distance is between a pretty good coach and a really good coach, and how that distance might manifest itself season after season.
Go Beavers!
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Post by Judge Smails on Dec 3, 2020 19:47:33 GMT -8
Well, I was quite encouraged in the first couple of games that we finally had some interesting talent that was watchable, and hopefully coachable. I have been turned off enough by lack of fundamentals and (perhaps completely my own) perceived bias towards "my three sons" in recent years to focus most of my attention on the WBB program. But this year, I was heartened by what I saw early, and intrigued by what the Beavers would look like minus two of the three sons. Some of our troubles remain, however, and I fear most of them are rooted in coaching or lack thereof. The (record setting) travails of Ethan in terms of driving into triple teams or passing without a plan are chronicled elsewhere, so let's look at some of the other aspects - Zach was shooting 3s at a 60+% rate (after taking one under shot clock duress), and we didn't do much to free up and find the "hot hand". And the icy cold hands had no trouble continuing to attempt to shoot their way out of the slump with no regard to game situation. We had the advantage (or at least parity?) on length and talent in the paint, but didn't seem to want to take advantage of that. Lucas just needs to set his feet for a split second and he is much higher percentage of a shooter, but no one seems to calm/slow him down (or coach him up to not dump the ball off to a 7 footer at the arc on a fast break, but who's counting?). Thompson seems to be unable to speed down the court, ever, and has this very cool looking but quite slow saunter that he insisted on employing even when there were only 20 seconds left in the game with us down......as a senior leader, what you do matters, and imparting a sense of urgency to the team would be good (as would hitting free throws or cashing in a wide open layup and closing to within 1 point late). Few plays or touches were reserved for our younger, aggressive players like Alatishe. The older players still love the slow, lazy bounce passes..... (I took beginning basketball from one Kelvin Sampson, and while he was discussing what we were doing for that day's class, he would casually be dribbling a basketball.....if any student's attention wandered, he would zip a pass right at the distracted student's head. His reasoning, as he would explain once or twice every class period as a dazed student shook off the effects of the basketball to the cranium, was that if you were on the basketball court and were unprepared for a basketball pass, you were really in the wrong place. Adding points for difficulty was the fact that during the beginning basketball class there was also an aerobics class going on over on the other side of the gym, and most of us were watching other things bouncing (mining school, highest concentration of women on campus were thus located across the court, making for a very compelling distraction.......but I digress....oh, I remember the point!!! Not a one of Sampson's passes were of the lazy bounce pass variety. :-)) Anyway, a lot of this is coaching the players and how they play. And it's just one game, and it's early, and there are floods and locusts and fire engines...... But it was a very winnable game. But our coach, who admittedly really cares for the kids, keeps them out of trouble, graduates them, says the right things, classy guy, is pretty good all around, came up short. I hope he can make some corrections, but I am worried about a multi-year trend that says otherwise. And I am starting to wonder what the distance is between a pretty good coach and a really good coach, and how that distance might manifest itself season after season. Go Beavers! Nothing like criticizing our coach and then referencing one of the most crooked coaches in college basketball. I don’t think WT has accumulated multiple NCAA violations and had a 5 year show cause against him. But good for you for advocating assault from a coach. You sure your coach wasn’t Melissa McCarthy. She throws toasters!
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2ndGenBeaver
Sophomore
Posts: 1,803
Grad Year: 1991 (MS/CS) 1999 (PhD/CS)
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Post by 2ndGenBeaver on Dec 3, 2020 21:40:04 GMT -8
Well, I was quite encouraged in the first couple of games that we finally had some interesting talent that was watchable, and hopefully coachable. I have been turned off enough by lack of fundamentals and (perhaps completely my own) perceived bias towards "my three sons" in recent years to focus most of my attention on the WBB program. But this year, I was heartened by what I saw early, and intrigued by what the Beavers would look like minus two of the three sons. Some of our troubles remain, however, and I fear most of them are rooted in coaching or lack thereof. The (record setting) travails of Ethan in terms of driving into triple teams or passing without a plan are chronicled elsewhere, so let's look at some of the other aspects - Zach was shooting 3s at a 60+% rate (after taking one under shot clock duress), and we didn't do much to free up and find the "hot hand". And the icy cold hands had no trouble continuing to attempt to shoot their way out of the slump with no regard to game situation. We had the advantage (or at least parity?) on length and talent in the paint, but didn't seem to want to take advantage of that. Lucas just needs to set his feet for a split second and he is much higher percentage of a shooter, but no one seems to calm/slow him down (or coach him up to not dump the ball off to a 7 footer at the arc on a fast break, but who's counting?). Thompson seems to be unable to speed down the court, ever, and has this very cool looking but quite slow saunter that he insisted on employing even when there were only 20 seconds left in the game with us down......as a senior leader, what you do matters, and imparting a sense of urgency to the team would be good (as would hitting free throws or cashing in a wide open layup and closing to within 1 point late). Few plays or touches were reserved for our younger, aggressive players like Alatishe. The older players still love the slow, lazy bounce passes..... (I took beginning basketball from one Kelvin Sampson, and while he was discussing what we were doing for that day's class, he would casually be dribbling a basketball.....if any student's attention wandered, he would zip a pass right at the distracted student's head. His reasoning, as he would explain once or twice every class period as a dazed student shook off the effects of the basketball to the cranium, was that if you were on the basketball court and were unprepared for a basketball pass, you were really in the wrong place. Adding points for difficulty was the fact that during the beginning basketball class there was also an aerobics class going on over on the other side of the gym, and most of us were watching other things bouncing (mining school, highest concentration of women on campus were thus located across the court, making for a very compelling distraction.......but I digress....oh, I remember the point!!! Not a one of Sampson's passes were of the lazy bounce pass variety. :-)) Anyway, a lot of this is coaching the players and how they play. And it's just one game, and it's early, and there are floods and locusts and fire engines...... But it was a very winnable game. But our coach, who admittedly really cares for the kids, keeps them out of trouble, graduates them, says the right things, classy guy, is pretty good all around, came up short. I hope he can make some corrections, but I am worried about a multi-year trend that says otherwise. And I am starting to wonder what the distance is between a pretty good coach and a really good coach, and how that distance might manifest itself season after season. Go Beavers! Nothing like criticizing our coach and then referencing one of the most crooked coaches in college basketball. I don’t think WT has accumulated multiple NCAA violations and had a 5 year show cause against him. But good for you for advocating assault from a coach. You sure your coach wasn’t Melissa McCarthy. She throws toasters! You are quite correct that Kelvin Sampson was quite crooked - and I am thrilled WT bears no resemblance to Sampson in that regard. Unfortunately I didn't go to a school with some paragon of virtue coaching, so I could reference no other. I think I even point out in the post above that WT "really cares for the kids, keeps them out of trouble, graduates them, says the right things, classy guy, is pretty good all around" - i.e. the antithesis of Sampson, in other words. Not sure where I "advocated assault", but if my post to you in any way did advocate that, I humbly apologize - was not my intent at all. What I am stuck pondering, not for the first time in my 33+ years of following the Beavers, is whether we will put a solidly coached team on the court..... Go Beavers!
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Post by diehardbeav on Dec 4, 2020 0:07:22 GMT -8
Nothing like criticizing our coach and then referencing one of the most crooked coaches in college basketball. I don’t think WT has accumulated multiple NCAA violations and had a 5 year show cause against him. But good for you for advocating assault from a coach. You sure your coach wasn’t Melissa McCarthy. She throws toasters! You are quite correct that Kelvin Sampson was quite crooked - and I am thrilled WT bears no resemblance to Sampson in that regard. Unfortunately I didn't go to a school with some paragon of virtue coaching, so I could reference no other. I think I even point out in the post above that WT "really cares for the kids, keeps them out of trouble, graduates them, says the right things, classy guy, is pretty good all around" - i.e. the antithesis of Sampson, in other words. Not sure where I "advocated assault", but if my post to you in any way did advocate that, I humbly apologize - was not my intent at all. What I am stuck pondering, not for the first time in my 33+ years of following the Beavers, is whether we will put a solidly coached team on the court..... Go Beavers! R.P. - I agree with much of your free flow analysis. Furthermore, it's disheartening to see Ethan Thompson show very little improvement in his 3+ years in the program. And to continue to lose these type of winnable games, which has plagued the program for the past 30 years. It seems like a curse that has kept us in the bottom half of the Pac.
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Post by Judge Smails on Dec 4, 2020 6:04:53 GMT -8
Nothing like criticizing our coach and then referencing one of the most crooked coaches in college basketball. I don’t think WT has accumulated multiple NCAA violations and had a 5 year show cause against him. But good for you for advocating assault from a coach. You sure your coach wasn’t Melissa McCarthy. She throws toasters! You are quite correct that Kelvin Sampson was quite crooked - and I am thrilled WT bears no resemblance to Sampson in that regard. Unfortunately I didn't go to a school with some paragon of virtue coaching, so I could reference no other. I think I even point out in the post above that WT "really cares for the kids, keeps them out of trouble, graduates them, says the right things, classy guy, is pretty good all around" - i.e. the antithesis of Sampson, in other words. Not sure where I "advocated assault", but if my post to you in any way did advocate that, I humbly apologize - was not my intent at all. What I am stuck pondering, not for the first time in my 33+ years of following the Beavers, is whether we will put a solidly coached team on the court..... Go Beavers! That was tongue in cheek. Just made me think of the SNL Melissa McCarthy set where she coaches BB. I actually think WT is a good X’s and O’s coach. But, for some reason, he seems to have a hard time getting players to buy in all of the time and to execute properly. I don’t know if it’s a motivational problem or if he’s just getting players that tend to lose focus during the game and forget what they’re supposed to be doing.
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Post by flyfishinbeav on Dec 4, 2020 8:33:42 GMT -8
I can't remember a Beavs team under WT that shoots very well from the charity stripe, especially in tight games, down the stretch......it's happened time and time again for years. Last two years they’ve been pretty good overall as a team — 75% and 74% — and Tres was always a good free throw shooter. Prior to those years had never been over 70%. I do feel like the Thompson’s have missed their fair share in crunch time, so just felt like Ethan would miss one. Reichle is one I’ve never been able to figure out. Supposed to be a shooter, but has never broken 80%. I think beyond the overall stats, what I've seen consistently, is an inability to make 2 of 2 in clutch situations. It's good to see them improve the percentage, but you gotta be stone cold at the line, late in games.
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2ndGenBeaver
Sophomore
Posts: 1,803
Grad Year: 1991 (MS/CS) 1999 (PhD/CS)
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Post by 2ndGenBeaver on Dec 4, 2020 9:09:29 GMT -8
You are quite correct that Kelvin Sampson was quite crooked - and I am thrilled WT bears no resemblance to Sampson in that regard. Unfortunately I didn't go to a school with some paragon of virtue coaching, so I could reference no other. I think I even point out in the post above that WT "really cares for the kids, keeps them out of trouble, graduates them, says the right things, classy guy, is pretty good all around" - i.e. the antithesis of Sampson, in other words. Not sure where I "advocated assault", but if my post to you in any way did advocate that, I humbly apologize - was not my intent at all. What I am stuck pondering, not for the first time in my 33+ years of following the Beavers, is whether we will put a solidly coached team on the court..... Go Beavers! R.P. - I agree with much of your free flow analysis. Furthermore, it's disheartening to see Ethan Thompson show very little improvement in his 3+ years in the program. And to continue to lose these type of winnable games, which has plagued the program for the past 30 years. It seems like a curse that has kept us in the bottom half of the Pac. Completely agree!! And look - I get that even senior leaders like Ethan are going to miss shots, critical free throws, get turnovers, drive when they should have dished, dish when they should have drove - that is part of the game. But slowly making your way up the court, even with 20 seconds left in the game, as opposed to expressing a sense of urgency by jetting up the court - that is coaching. Or not being aware of the "basketball end game math" (go for a quick 3, or get the sure 2), or not trying to execute on that math - that is coaching. And to your point, we seem stuck in that morass of losing winning games - coach names different, player names different, results the same. The curse is getting old!! Go Beavers!
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2ndGenBeaver
Sophomore
Posts: 1,803
Grad Year: 1991 (MS/CS) 1999 (PhD/CS)
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Post by 2ndGenBeaver on Dec 4, 2020 9:18:25 GMT -8
You are quite correct that Kelvin Sampson was quite crooked - and I am thrilled WT bears no resemblance to Sampson in that regard. Unfortunately I didn't go to a school with some paragon of virtue coaching, so I could reference no other. I think I even point out in the post above that WT "really cares for the kids, keeps them out of trouble, graduates them, says the right things, classy guy, is pretty good all around" - i.e. the antithesis of Sampson, in other words. Not sure where I "advocated assault", but if my post to you in any way did advocate that, I humbly apologize - was not my intent at all. What I am stuck pondering, not for the first time in my 33+ years of following the Beavers, is whether we will put a solidly coached team on the court..... Go Beavers! That was tongue in cheek. Just made me think of the SNL Melissa McCarthy set where she coaches BB. I actually think WT is a good X’s and O’s coach. But, for some reason, he seems to have a hard time getting players to buy in all of the time and to execute properly. I don’t know if it’s a motivational problem or if he’s just getting players that tend to lose focus during the game and forget what they’re supposed to be doing. Thanks for the clarification, and I agree with your observation on the coaching quandary WT presents. What has bothered me over the years is my perceived lack of WT holding certain players accountable for what they do (or don't do) on the court. And if those perceptions can make an ardent fan like me tune out and look for entertainment elsewhere, it's worrisome..... Go Beavers!
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Post by nabeav on Dec 4, 2020 11:27:09 GMT -8
Last two years they’ve been pretty good overall as a team — 75% and 74% — and Tres was always a good free throw shooter. Prior to those years had never been over 70%. I do feel like the Thompson’s have missed their fair share in crunch time, so just felt like Ethan would miss one. Reichle is one I’ve never been able to figure out. Supposed to be a shooter, but has never broken 80%. I think beyond the overall stats, what I've seen consistently, is an inability to make 2 of 2 in clutch situations. It's good to see them improve the percentage, but you gotta be stone cold at the line, late in games. I guess my question is if you think that's a coaching problem or a player problem. Like is it the coaches fault that guys miss free throws in pressure situations? Seems like we're blaming Wayne for having the best free throw shooting team in a generation, but not making the RIGHT free throws.
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Post by TheGlove on Dec 4, 2020 11:53:43 GMT -8
You are quite correct that Kelvin Sampson was quite crooked - and I am thrilled WT bears no resemblance to Sampson in that regard. Unfortunately I didn't go to a school with some paragon of virtue coaching, so I could reference no other. I think I even point out in the post above that WT "really cares for the kids, keeps them out of trouble, graduates them, says the right things, classy guy, is pretty good all around" - i.e. the antithesis of Sampson, in other words. Not sure where I "advocated assault", but if my post to you in any way did advocate that, I humbly apologize - was not my intent at all. What I am stuck pondering, not for the first time in my 33+ years of following the Beavers, is whether we will put a solidly coached team on the court..... Go Beavers! That was tongue in cheek. Just made me think of the SNL Melissa McCarthy set where she coaches BB. I actually think WT is a good X’s and O’s coach. But, for some reason, he seems to have a hard time getting players to buy in all of the time and to execute properly. I don’t know if it’s a motivational problem or if he’s just getting players that tend to lose focus during the game and forget what they’re supposed to be doing. I thought the home game v UColo last season was very enlightening. Both coaches were mic'd up for the game, even during timeouts, locker room at the half and post game. WT's motivational technique could be characterized as "hard-ass" coaching style. Yelling at the players with a negative vibe, what some would call "old school." Contrasted with UC's Boyle, who seemed to relate differently with his players. More positively.
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Post by ochobeavo on Dec 4, 2020 12:49:38 GMT -8
That was tongue in cheek. Just made me think of the SNL Melissa McCarthy set where she coaches BB. I actually think WT is a good X’s and O’s coach. But, for some reason, he seems to have a hard time getting players to buy in all of the time and to execute properly. I don’t know if it’s a motivational problem or if he’s just getting players that tend to lose focus during the game and forget what they’re supposed to be doing. I thought the home game v UColo last season was very enlightening. Both coaches were mic'd up for the game, even during timeouts, locker room at the half and post game. WT's motivational technique could be characterized as "hard-ass" coaching style. Yelling at the players with a negative vibe, what some would call "old school." Contrasted with UC's Boyle, who seemed to relate differently with his players. More positively. YES!!! That day was a game changer for me.
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2ndGenBeaver
Sophomore
Posts: 1,803
Grad Year: 1991 (MS/CS) 1999 (PhD/CS)
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Post by 2ndGenBeaver on Dec 4, 2020 13:53:08 GMT -8
I've never coached a basketball game in my life. So take the rest of this with a grain of salt (or two). But I have served as the technical leader/coach for teams consisting of several hundred people across many geographies attempting to deliver technical "wins". My observation is the best teams are those that can harmonize their individual talents most appropriately to deliver collective winning results. And some of the highest performing teams were not those that "put the most talented individuals on the floor" (though often discussed in this forum), but were the teams where adequately talented individuals who worked best together were put on the floor. Where the most talented leaders knew when to draw on their individual talent, but also knew when to show some "servant leadership". And sometimes the "coach" would have to "sit" the most talented individual to get that message across, or at least hold these very talented individuals accountable to the expectation that they would be expected to mostly make the right choices at the right time. And that takes a combination of tough love, coaching, encouragement, tolerance to risk and mistakes, but some clear accountability and decisive coaching.
Therein lies my frustration with the last few years of Beaver MBB. And thanks for reminding us of the mic'ed up game with the Buffs last year......because I didn't see much evidence of that sort of thought process come through, though maybe having a mic changes your behavior...... Again - I think WT is a great guy. I think the jury is still out on whether he is a great coach.
Go Beavers!
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Post by beaverstever on Dec 4, 2020 14:07:22 GMT -8
I personally have settled for a while on WT simply not being a great coach, and I'm sure I have lots of company. He's not bad, he's just not great, and arguably not even good. I'm sure when we hired him, we were hoping he would have the trajectory of the Montana pipeline, with Mike Montgomery, Stew Morrill, Blaine Taylor and Larry Krystkowiak all coming through there: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montana_Grizzlies_basketballInterestingly, it seems that being a coach at Montana has structural advantages, as 6 of the last 7 coaches since Mike Montgomery have gone to the NCAA tournament at least once (Mike ironically not getting there). Their current coach, Travis DeCuire has had a very similar trajectory there as WT - and so may indeed also be fools gold (but I'm sure he'll be getting some big chances). Larry looked like a good coach after jumping to Utah, and now appears to be flatlining, but we'll see. Bottom line, it's very likely that Montana provides better support of that program than the rest of the Big Sky, in which case there are lane bumpers that simply don't exist currently at OSU vs. the Pac 12, in which case it probably wasn't a well vetted hiring decision. We may go on to have a beast of a season, I'm just saying that if we do, it will be hard to convince me that it was coaching, it will be more likely caused by a transcendent player (which GPII was, and is who I give the most credit to in terms of us breaking the wicked tourney streak.)
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Post by beaverinohio on Dec 4, 2020 15:45:15 GMT -8
I don’t have a problem at all with coaches who yell at players during the game or in the locker room. Obviously a coach can go too far, but there are plenty of top coaches that scream — Tom Izzo jumps to mind. But that can’t be the extent of their coaching and they have to also establish strong relationships with the kids. I honestly don’t know what the problem is with WT’s coaching. I just know they’ve lacked overall talent, player development hasn’t been strong, and his teams continue to make the same mistakes. There is a disconnect somewhere.
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