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Post by beaver94 on Jul 7, 2020 17:23:57 GMT -8
Come on glove. You don't really mean this, do you? All women should have voted for Hillary? Period. The only voice we have, and therefore should only vote for are those of a middle aged white male? in the case of Trump v Clinton, yes women are voting against their interest if they vote for trump. I don't even know what your second sentence means. So all women have the same interests? Which interests should I let my mother and wife know they voted against?
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Post by spudbeaver on Jul 7, 2020 19:25:10 GMT -8
If Abe Lincoln was born in 1960 there's an approximately 0% chance he would be affiliated with the party of donald trump If Ronald Regan was President in 1960 he’d be called John F Kennedy. Same policy. Your point was???
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Post by TheGlove on Jul 7, 2020 19:47:48 GMT -8
in the case of Trump v Clinton, yes women are voting against their interest if they vote for trump. I don't even know what your second sentence means. If women should ONLY have voted for Hillary, then Black people should only vote for another Black politician...and so on. Really makes no sense and is really only a comment to inflame. I'm sure you will still claim to not understand and live in denial rather than admit to a not very well thoughtout comment. Nice leap, I hope you don’t twist your ankle on the landing.
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Post by TheGlove on Jul 7, 2020 19:50:47 GMT -8
in the case of Trump v Clinton, yes women are voting against their interest if they vote for trump. I don't even know what your second sentence means. So all women have the same interests? Which interests should I let my mother and wife know they voted against? You and beavs6 have some reading comprehension issues. are they happy that they voted for trump?
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Post by beaver94 on Jul 7, 2020 20:00:16 GMT -8
So all women have the same interests? Which interests should I let my mother and wife know they voted against? You and beavs6 have some reading comprehension issues. are they happy that they voted for trump? So all women have the same interests? Which interests should I let my mother and wife know they voted against? You and beavs6 have some reading comprehension issues. are they happy that they voted for trump? You said women are voting against their interests if they voted for Trump. If voting for the other person because they feel that that person better represents their interests I’d say they aren’t voting against them. I guess I’m just dumb and illiterate so maybe you can explain it to me. Yes, they are happy they voted for Trump. He’s an ass but that doesn’t mean everything that happens under his presidency is bad.
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Post by TheGlove on Jul 7, 2020 20:11:50 GMT -8
in the case of Trump v Clinton, yes women are voting against their interest if they vote for trump. I don't even know what your second sentence means. ^ This is why nobody should take you seriously. ^ Don’t you have some OAN or Bill Mitchell to watch?
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Post by NativeBeav on Jul 7, 2020 20:25:12 GMT -8
Actually, no, I am very comfortable in my own skin. I have nothing to (politically) to apologize for. I did not take the post as an attack, certainly not as an attack on me. The implication came across as a bit sarcastic and cavalier - Gundy can afford it.
And yes, as always, I appreciate the alternate point of view. I agree I let my frustration with the other OSU for punishing a coach that seemingly did doing nothing wrong, a coach totally within his rights, bleed over to Glove - fair point. Another consideration, I suspect the university may have found other evidence that led to the pay cut. We may never know.
It is a sad day, when any coach has to apologize, and then have his pay docked, because of an innocuous t-shirt. I think it is the overly sensitive snowflakes that complained about it in the first place that need to lighten up. I also was responding to the notion that just because he is a coach with a contract, that he can afford the "haircut" - meaning cut in pay. Rather cavalier attitude by someone who has not walked a mile in his shoes, so to speak. And yes, I may have come on a bit too strong on my response. My bad.
He's a public figure. He knows there are consequences to his actions, regardless of them being done in private or not ... that's true for the players as well. And it cuts both ways - if he was caught with a CNN shirt (or probably more comparable, HuffPo or Daily Kos), he likely would have caused calls from some of their donors, and cost the program money. Probably wouldn't have been as public, but the resulting pay haircut certainly could have been the same. Would you call those donors 'snowflakes' and that they needed to 'lighten up'?Either action affects the university's bottom line, as the most public face of that university. He clearly didn't get that, and so my view is that what is really needed here is for him to 'grow up' - after all, he's a man, well beyond 40 now. Sorry for going dark for a while - that work thingy can sure get in the way. If all it takes for some donors to pull funds for putting on a CNN shirt, then my attitude is, they were never really a true supporter of the program, or the university. I would think the W/L record, player development, etc. would be what matters. But, since I am not a big donor, who knows?
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Post by NativeBeav on Jul 7, 2020 20:28:33 GMT -8
If we are such a racist nation how do you explain these numbers -
Notice all that "White Privilege" did not help us to have the highest per household income in the US. Indians and Asians have us beat. If we are such a racist country, why are so many people from around the world, even people of color, clamoring to come here?
Are you asking because you are genuinely curious to know the answer, or are you just looking to reinforce a view and not broaden your understanding? Because I can explain how those two things can co-exist, but I'm not sure you actually care to learn.I wouldn't be having this conversation if I wasn't interested in "learning". Yes, I can think of some reasons - but I think it is multi-faceted
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Post by NativeBeav on Jul 7, 2020 20:43:13 GMT -8
Honest question - was redlining just about race, or do you think there were other factors? I would suggest as much or more of the reason would be perceived financial risk, and it would occur in both poor white or poor black communities. Not saying it is necessarily right for either, just not sure it is purely a race issue no it wasn't JUST about race. But it was, more times than not, the prevailing factor. It is why it could last so long and be widely accepted even beyond the Fair Housing Act. It was very easy to pivot to to ambiguous notions of credit worthiness and financial risk. And as we are fighting about, plenty of white people suffer these policies to... the issue is MORE blacks and minorities do (proportionally) than whites. the issues is basically it has been a long standing tool of oppression that affects certain demographics at a higher rate. What makes all of this hard to wrap your head around is it isn't clear-cut burning a cross in a lawn type stuff. It is years and years of subtle jabs and minor cuts that many times have some quasi-legitimate reasoning behind it. War on Drugs is another big one. Is anybody, on the surface, going to argue that being tough on drugs is bad policy? no, and nobody did at the time. Did tens of thousands of whites get swept up in that? yep. but did tens of thousands more blacks, Hispanics and other minorities get jailed, and often face harsher punishments? yep again. And years and years later we see how it was widespread policy used to oppress black populations primarily. even worse, in states that have for-profit prisons, it is the major mechanism used to keep those prisons full. On the backs of young black men, generally serving ludicrous prison sentences for having a dime bag in their pocket. Over and over again studies have shown black get longer jail sentences for the same crime even when controlling for previous criminal records. Also that whole CIA selling cocaine and heroin to inner city blacks as part of the Iran-Contra thing is a mind f%#* as well. That is a fun google rabbit hole. Point being, "systemic racism" is a tough issue to crack. it is hard to understand, it is hard to verbalize and it is even harder to undo. There is not much you can do to erase generations of actions meant to oppress a full population. you can't just go "oops, my bad. we cool now". it doesn't give Grandma her house in 1940, she could of given her kids in 1980, than passed to her grand kids in 2020, and they sell it for $500K in the PDX market, and now that family has wealth they never had before, and those grandkids now have a little bit better shot, statistically, at going to a nicer school or a little cushion from mom and dad to take a risk on a start up business or something similar. Blacks in this country are generations behind in achievement, so to speak. A common story for white people in America, is a far less common story for Blacks. I am 40... in my peer group among my close friends, I am already reaching the age where some friends are getting houses passed down to them, or getting inheritances, or other generational gifts... and holy hell, it is life changing. Not every white family gets that. Many... far too many, suffer generational poverty as well. Grandpa lived in a trailer, so did dad and now so do they... nobody leaves, nobody achieves. But the point we are trying to make is in America, the system of wealth, the system of success for *most* people, favors whites. It isn't the only way to succeed. there are thousands of very wealth blacks in America. there are thousands and thousands that got out of "the ghetto" and succeeded. But like countless studies have shown over and over again, when you look at it all at a high level, you are more likely to succeed yourself if your parents were successful, you are more likely to be rich if your parents were rich and the most common way people in this country themselves get rich is generational wealth handed down, primarily via home equity or land. We want to sell the business dream in America. you get rich by pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and starting some business. Many people do just that, but most do not. The money builds over time over generations. I will take the highlights in order. First, it is a little more than ambiguous notions. Think about it. If you are a business person, and you want to make money, you will loan money, especially a mortgage backed by Fannie and Freddie, to just about anyone. Who cares what their skin color is? It is about the Benjamins, baby. Which is why, after the redlining and credit worthiness, along with at least a 10 or 20 percent down payment, we had the collapse in 2007/2008. By loosening credit standards, banning redlining in all neighborhoods, gave rise to "ninja" loans - no income, no job. Do you think the mortgage brokers gave a damn about whether or not anyone that was risky could pay it back? No way! Bundle it and sell it to the govt, baby! I knew we were in deep scat when I heard a report in 2006 that of all mortgages in 2006, over half in Cali were interest only loans - yikes!
Second, good point, but how do you explain the plight of the Japanese Americans that were put in internment camps during WW2? Or, the Jews that came here after the Holocaust? Both groups of people, severely harmed financially, are doing far better today, than the African-American community.
Lastly, you are touching on cultural issues. That is, IMHO, one of the biggest, if not the biggest reason the African American community continues to struggle mightily. They were sold a bill of goods, you can't make it without us, here are the handouts, and it destroyed that drive to work hard and succeed, as well as falling into a victim mentality. There is truth to what you say, but I still believe it applies to poor white kids as well. When ever a prominent member of the black community challenges their community to stop the drugs, gang-banging, dropping out of school, etc., they are shouted down for being an uncle Tom. I voted twice in the '90's for Alan Keyes - powerful message from someone that grew up much like Ben Carson.
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Post by NativeBeav on Jul 7, 2020 20:47:18 GMT -8
H1-B visas? I mean, it is actually pretty racist... I want to correct myself. I meant to write exploitative. not racist. It wouldn't let me edit my post. Some do argue it is racist, actually some argue is it racist against whites. the H1-B program is controversial for sure. I did mean exploitative when I wrote that, but my fingers when another direction after doing back to back posts. But that is a big reason for what you cite. US firms targeting Indian and Asians on H1-B workers that still earn "good" wages, but at the same time are often (but not always) below prevailing wage in the area. when you dig deeper you find that many Indians in particular in America, are paid less for comparative work, but a higher proportion come here for "skilled" labor. But I want to address a bigger point... the "If we are such a racist nation..." lead in. You are defending American. Like... defending it like it is your kid, or sports team. That whattabout-ism lead in was full on defense mode. Refusing to listen to criticism and/or completely unwilling to accept there *might* be a problem.
Like, man, I love America. I do. But you can love something and accept there are problems that need fixing.
I need to mow the lawn at my house from time to time. doesn't mean I hate my house. I gotta fix things that are broken... If my water heater breaks. I don't "love my house or leave it" I fix my damn water heater!
Saying we have racism issues in America we need to address does not equal "I hate America". It is a pretty normal, and responsible thing to do to want to fix things that aren't right. Excellent points, Atown. All I would add is that all interested parties need to come together, and have an honest conversation about what problems exist, and no sacred cows. When conflict occurs with your spouse, your kids, friends, etc., one of the most powerful ways to resolve it is to lead with what you have done to contribute to the problem - or as they say, while you are pointing a finger at someone else, three are pointing back at you.....
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Post by NativeBeav on Jul 7, 2020 20:58:45 GMT -8
no it wasn't JUST about race. But it was, more times than not, the prevailing factor. It is why it could last so long and be widely accepted even beyond the Fair Housing Act. It was very easy to pivot to to ambiguous notions of credit worthiness and financial risk. And as we are fighting about, plenty of white people suffer these policies to... the issue is MORE blacks and minorities do (proportionally) than whites. the issues is basically it has been a long standing tool of oppression that affects certain demographics at a higher rate. What makes all of this hard to wrap your head around is it isn't clear-cut burning a cross in a lawn type stuff. It is years and years of subtle jabs and minor cuts that many times have some quasi-legitimate reasoning behind it. War on Drugs is another big one. Is anybody, on the surface, going to argue that being tough on drugs is bad policy? no, and nobody did at the time. Did tens of thousands of whites get swept up in that? yep. but did tens of thousands more blacks, Hispanics and other minorities get jailed, and often face harsher punishments? yep again. And years and years later we see how it was widespread policy used to oppress black populations primarily. even worse, in states that have for-profit prisons, it is the major mechanism used to keep those prisons full. On the backs of young black men, generally serving ludicrous prison sentences for having a dime bag in their pocket. Over and over again studies have shown black get longer jail sentences for the same crime even when controlling for previous criminal records. Also that whole CIA selling cocaine and heroin to inner city blacks as part of the Iran-Contra thing is a mind f%#* as well. That is a fun google rabbit hole. Point being, "systemic racism" is a tough issue to crack. it is hard to understand, it is hard to verbalize and it is even harder to undo. There is not much you can do to erase generations of actions meant to oppress a full population. you can't just go "oops, my bad. we cool now". it doesn't give Grandma her house in 1940, she could of given her kids in 1980, than passed to her grand kids in 2020, and they sell it for $500K in the PDX market, and now that family has wealth they never had before, and those grandkids now have a little bit better shot, statistically, at going to a nicer school or a little cushion from mom and dad to take a risk on a start up business or something similar. Blacks in this country are generations behind in achievement, so to speak. A common story for white people in America, is a far less common story for Blacks. I am 40... in my peer group among my close friends, I am already reaching the age where some friends are getting houses passed down to them, or getting inheritances, or other generational gifts... and holy hell, it is life changing. Not every white family gets that. Many... far too many, suffer generational poverty as well. Grandpa lived in a trailer, so did dad and now so do they... nobody leaves, nobody achieves. But the point we are trying to make is in America, the system of wealth, the system of success for *most* people, favors whites. It isn't the only way to succeed. there are thousands of very wealth blacks in America. there are thousands and thousands that got out of "the ghetto" and succeeded. But like countless studies have shown over and over again, when you look at it all at a high level, you are more likely to succeed yourself if your parents were successful, you are more likely to be rich if your parents were rich and the most common way people in this country themselves get rich is generational wealth handed down, primarily via home equity or land. We want to sell the business dream in America. you get rich by pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and starting some business. Many people do just that, but most do not. The money builds over time over generations. I will take the highlights in order. First, it is a little more than ambiguous notions. Think about it. If you are a business person, and you want to make money, you will loan money, especially a mortgage backed by Fannie and Freddie, to just about anyone. Who cares what their skin color is? It is about the Benjamins, baby. Which is why, after the redlining and credit worthiness issues were relaxed, along with at least a 10 or 20 percent down payment, we had the collapse in 2007/2008. By loosening credit standards, banning redlining in all neighborhoods, gave rise to "ninja" loans - no income, no job. Do you think the mortgage brokers gave a damn about whether or not anyone that was risky could pay it back? No way! Bundle it and sell it to the govt, baby! I knew we were in deep scat when I heard a report in 2006 that of all mortgages in 2006, over half in Cali were interest only loans - yikes!
Second, good point, but how do you explain the plight of the Japanese Americans that were put in internment camps during WW2? Or, the Jews that came here after the Holocaust? Both groups of people, severely harmed financially, are doing far better today, than the African-American community.
Lastly, you are touching on cultural issues. That is, IMHO, one of the biggest, if not the biggest reason the African American community continues to struggle mightily. They were sold a bill of goods, you can't make it without us, here are the handouts, and it destroyed that drive to work hard and succeed, as well as falling into a victim mentality. There is truth to what you say, but I still believe it applies to poor white kids as well. When ever a prominent member of the black community challenges their community to stop the drugs, gang-banging, dropping out of school, etc., they are shouted down for being an uncle Tom. I voted twice in the '90's for Alan Keyes - powerful message from someone that grew up much like Ben Carson.
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Post by irimi on Jul 7, 2020 20:59:50 GMT -8
If Abe Lincoln was born in 1960 there's an approximately 0% chance he would be affiliated with the party of donald trump Are you insinuating he'd belong to the race-baiting Democrat party, instead? It is easy to see historically that the values and platforms of the Democrat and Republican parties switched many times. So it is laughable to say that Lincoln was a Republican as we see Republicans today. The party has changed several times. Some scholars believe the 80’s/90’s iteration of Democrat and Republican is the last and most recent shifting of the parties. This means that the defining characteristics of what we call Democrat and Republican during the civil rights days were different, so it is not surprising that Republicans voted for civil rights back then. The parties are not static. I wonder, though, if there really is a Republican Party left that looks anything like Reagan’s Republicans. This is just my personal thought based upon the last two Republican presidents who were/are substantially different in character and demeanor from Reagan.
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Post by irimi on Jul 7, 2020 21:23:23 GMT -8
no it wasn't JUST about race. But it was, more times than not, the prevailing factor. It is why it could last so long and be widely accepted even beyond the Fair Housing Act. It was very easy to pivot to to ambiguous notions of credit worthiness and financial risk. And as we are fighting about, plenty of white people suffer these policies to... the issue is MORE blacks and minorities do (proportionally) than whites. the issues is basically it has been a long standing tool of oppression that affects certain demographics at a higher rate. What makes all of this hard to wrap your head around is it isn't clear-cut burning a cross in a lawn type stuff. It is years and years of subtle jabs and minor cuts that many times have some quasi-legitimate reasoning behind it. War on Drugs is another big one. Is anybody, on the surface, going to argue that being tough on drugs is bad policy? no, and nobody did at the time. Did tens of thousands of whites get swept up in that? yep. but did tens of thousands more blacks, Hispanics and other minorities get jailed, and often face harsher punishments? yep again. And years and years later we see how it was widespread policy used to oppress black populations primarily. even worse, in states that have for-profit prisons, it is the major mechanism used to keep those prisons full. On the backs of young black men, generally serving ludicrous prison sentences for having a dime bag in their pocket. Over and over again studies have shown black get longer jail sentences for the same crime even when controlling for previous criminal records. Also that whole CIA selling cocaine and heroin to inner city blacks as part of the Iran-Contra thing is a mind f%#* as well. That is a fun google rabbit hole. Point being, "systemic racism" is a tough issue to crack. it is hard to understand, it is hard to verbalize and it is even harder to undo. There is not much you can do to erase generations of actions meant to oppress a full population. you can't just go "oops, my bad. we cool now". it doesn't give Grandma her house in 1940, she could of given her kids in 1980, than passed to her grand kids in 2020, and they sell it for $500K in the PDX market, and now that family has wealth they never had before, and those grandkids now have a little bit better shot, statistically, at going to a nicer school or a little cushion from mom and dad to take a risk on a start up business or something similar. Blacks in this country are generations behind in achievement, so to speak. A common story for white people in America, is a far less common story for Blacks. I am 40... in my peer group among my close friends, I am already reaching the age where some friends are getting houses passed down to them, or getting inheritances, or other generational gifts... and holy hell, it is life changing. Not every white family gets that. Many... far too many, suffer generational poverty as well. Grandpa lived in a trailer, so did dad and now so do they... nobody leaves, nobody achieves. But the point we are trying to make is in America, the system of wealth, the system of success for *most* people, favors whites. It isn't the only way to succeed. there are thousands of very wealth blacks in America. there are thousands and thousands that got out of "the ghetto" and succeeded. But like countless studies have shown over and over again, when you look at it all at a high level, you are more likely to succeed yourself if your parents were successful, you are more likely to be rich if your parents were rich and the most common way people in this country themselves get rich is generational wealth handed down, primarily via home equity or land. We want to sell the business dream in America. you get rich by pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and starting some business. Many people do just that, but most do not. The money builds over time over generations. <snip>
Second, good point, but how do you explain the plight of the Japanese Americans that were put in internment camps during WW2? Or, the Jews that came here after the Holocaust? Both groups of people, severely harmed financially, are doing far better today, than the African-American community.
<snip>
Now you’re in my neck of the woods: the Japanese. First of all, Japanese culture is a work culture. Much like other Asian cultures, parents live their lives for the sake of their children. They sacrifice everything for their child to get just a little further ahead in life. They do this in Japan; they do this in America. But African culture at the time of slavery was not like this. Their society was not developed to seek money and higher education. Then they were forced to come to America and work as slaves. You know, if you force me to work for nothing but food and crappy shelter, I’m not going to develop a strong work ethic. How does working hard help put me ahead? It simply saves me from physical pain. Second, discrimination toward Japanese was harsh at the time of the war, but less harsh after and before. Yes, there still exists discrimination toward Japanese people here in the US. And during the 80s and 90s when Japan was economically strong resentment rose again. But it did not rise to the level of discrimination toward African-Americans in this country. Lynchings? Nope. Trouble for dating a white person? Not so much. The number of slurs and insults for an African-American are far more numerous than for a Japanese person. Another important point is that the education system in Japan has always been valued and has always been strong. Folks who emigrated from Japan had a good enough educational background to fit into society and to find good work. They could thrive this way. But the slaves received little to no education. For generations. And education is a strong key for success. So your comparison is valuable only if you flesh it out. Superficially, you may think that the Japanese and the Black experience are similar, but when you really look at it, they are about as dissimilar as they come.
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Post by thetruebeav on Jul 7, 2020 21:40:08 GMT -8
How bout them Beavers?!?!
Lordy.... the dividers are winning (lefties, righties, north & south)
I'm going 2 play nice in the sand box & still believe we all have way more in common then not
It's still a great day to be a Beaver!
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Post by pitbeavs on Jul 7, 2020 21:53:48 GMT -8
After an internal investigation they lopped $1m/year and 1 year, off his contract. Very expensive tshirt, but I’m sure he’ll survive. Music
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