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Post by nexus73 on Mar 20, 2019 15:05:59 GMT -8
Someone with a better memory can help me out here- Oregon kids who have gone out of state in recent years? Who have we missed out on? I know of the Hepa kid from Jefferson playing for Texas but can't think of anyone else in recent seasons. I'm probably forgetting someone obvious... It's been kind of lean in Oregon lately, but here's a list of 3*+ kids from Oregon I pulled off of Rivals that went out of state: Marcus Tsohonis (2019) - UW Kamaka Hepa (2018) - Texas Anthony Mathis (2015) - New Mexico Kameron Chatman (2014) - Michigan Silas Melson (2014) - Gonzaga Calvin Hermanson (2013) - St. Mary's Landen Lucas (2012) - Kansas Kyle Wiltjer (2011) - Kentucky Andrew Andrews (2011) - Washington Terrence Jones (2010) - Kentucky Garrett Jackson (2010) - USC Terrence Ross (2010) - Washington Mike Moser (2009) - UCLA Michael Harthun (2008) - Wazzu Brad Tinsley (2008) - Vanderbilt Don't forget the Singler who went to Duke and was a major contributor to them winning a national championship.
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Mar 20, 2019 15:44:15 GMT -8
Baseba111... I've never said Tinkle is the next Ralph Miller or Pat Casey, just that the Ralph Miller and Pat Casey Glory Years really didn't occur until well into their times here.
Ernie had struggles at WSU largely because it wasn't uo. For whatever reason, some schools are sexier to recruits than others.
As far as gymnastics, baseball, women's basketball and wrestling doing well at OSU and then blaming basketball and football coaches for not doing the same at OSU.... guess what... those sports and the people that play them have a different mentality than the 2 men's sports.
Football and basketball boys can't be drafted into the big leagues out of high school, so the best who happen to dream of going there look for the most likely path to get there, and historically that hasn't been at OSU.
How many high school greco roman wrestlers and gymnasts dream of 15-20 year professional careers doing their sports? If so, all they need to make it big is just join ANY team that competes at the top level that has a good coach they like and trust to get them there because they are individual sports... you can be surrounded by other players with zip for talent and still become a national champion. Completely different than men's BB or football, which are team games.
As far as women's basketball goes, frankly high school girls are smarter than a lot of high school boys. Academics and team experience/camaraderie matter. I'd bet most of them want a good college experience. Some boys want that, but how many of the top flight kids are going to college for their 1-3 years before they are allowed to join the pro ranks? There are more attractive programs to showcase them for the pro scouts and make that dream happen. Rueck built this team with kids I'd bet didn't have the pros on their minds, but he is a rare gem of a coach that offers the team experience and a shot at a potential pro career in a relatively new and growing pro team sport. Right person at the right time, were blessed to have him.
Baseball drafts straight from high school so they get the majority of the young talent that doesn't care about the college experience or education. OSU has a good shot at that point, after Casey started having tremendous success, about a decade after he arrived, even moreso. Now because of success OSU is doing quite well in recruiting.
If every hot shot football or basketball recruit came in thinking "I want a great college experience and a degree and if the pros come along after I graduate, great!" OSU would get it's "share" of talent. Occasionally OSU gets one, but very few one and dones or three and dones will even look at OSU.
When you are behind on the talent it's tough to make up that ground. As pointed out by another poster above, WT is actually having more success in the league than his Pac 12 recruiting rankings would indicate. That speaks to some amount coaching, compared to other coaches in the league, as much as anything you've pointed out.
Tinkle is doing a lot of the right things. He's managed to finish 4th in a league that had 3 teams implicated in the FBI recruiting scandal this last year. BAD BAD NCAA ENFORCEMENT. All I am saying is Rome wasn't built in a day. Few coaches could overcome the recruiting disadvantages OSU has (real or perceived they do exist). Ralph did it, but it took years, and as you have said different day, different time.
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Post by blastingsand on Mar 20, 2019 15:49:23 GMT -8
Why is location only a detriment for specific programs like Oregon State men's basketball? Sincerely, K-State, Iowa State, Virginia Tech, Gonzaga Because we have too many fans that like to use it as an excuse when coaches here do badly. I think the fan base is just content with having a team, as long as there are no scandals. Seasons like this year is a peak for them.
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Post by seastape on Mar 20, 2019 16:21:02 GMT -8
Location, location, location. Why is location only a detriment for specific programs like Oregon State men's basketball? Sincerely, K-State, Iowa State, Virginia Tech, Gonzaga I might take Gonzaga off that list, as its city proper (Spokane) population is over 200,000 and its county population is over 500,000. That's the big city in comparison to Manhattan, KS, Ames, IA, and Blacksburg, VA. Spokane is out there, but it's big enough to appeal to people who want more to do than the smaller college towns offer.
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Post by atownbeaver on Mar 20, 2019 17:41:05 GMT -8
Why is location only a detriment for specific programs like Oregon State men's basketball? Sincerely, K-State, Iowa State, Virginia Tech, Gonzaga I might take Gonzaga off that list, as its city proper (Spokane) population is over 200,000 and its county population is over 500,000. That's the big city in comparison to Manhattan, KS, Ames, IA, and Blacksburg, VA. Spokane is out there, but it's big enough to appeal to people who want more to do than the smaller college towns offer. And Manhattan is 66K little bigger than Corvallis 40 miles from Topeka (pop 125K) and 120 miles from Kansas City... Ames is 25 miles from Des Moines Blacksburg is probably the ONLY one that is arguable as isolated as Corvallis, in terms of population, proximity to freeways and other major population centers, having a decent airport close, etc. (Edit, and yes I realize that OSU is 40 miles from Eugene, but UO owns that town as a direct rival so not sure you can count it...)
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Mar 20, 2019 18:02:25 GMT -8
Because we have too many fans that like to use it as an excuse when coaches here do badly. I think the fan base is just content with having a team, as long as there are no scandals. Seasons like this year is a peak for them. I for one am not content, nor do I think this is a peak. I ask you to find one Tinkle supporter who thinks this is the peak. I suspect there are a lot of us who think if progress is being made you don't destroy it and start over.
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Post by atownbeaver on Mar 20, 2019 20:20:24 GMT -8
And Manhattan is 66K little bigger than Corvallis 40 miles from Topeka (pop 125K) and 120 miles from Kansas City... Ames is 25 miles from Des Moines Blacksburg is probably the ONLY one that is arguable as isolated as Corvallis, in terms of population, proximity to freeways and other major population centers, having a decent airport close, etc. (Edit, and yes I realize that OSU is 40 miles from Eugene, but UO owns that town as a direct rival so not sure you can count it...) And Corvallis is 70 miles from Portland which is bigger than any other city mentioned in this conversation. So basically Corvallis is very comparable to exactly ALL of those cities the OP mentioned (Spokane a big city? Please maybe if you're from Lebanon). Portland is bigger than Kansas City? Portland has 1/3rd the population... And Des Moines has a pop of 645,000 basically exactly equal to PDX. Also, Corvallis is more like It is 85 miles to PDX and 15 from the freeway. Spokane isn't "big" but over 200,000 people live in the city limits. it is bigger than Salem and Keizer combined. It actually has an international airport, the Spokane Valley, Evergreen, America Falls, Post falls area pushes the pop up to 500K. Spokane is home to pretty significant medical schools as several health systems have teaching hospitals there. But demographics aside, the bigger issue isn't just location (though location plays a factor). the biggest issue that Corvallis presents is it is full of old retired professors and HP engineers that resent the athletic program. I have have been to many small college towns. I would rank Corvallis at the bottom of any list you construct in terms of cities that engage and support the university. Corvallis, as a whole, does not embrace the university. They more generally resent it from my experience. The yuppies in that town hate that their idyllic little coffee shop is over run with frat boys. Corvallis treat OSU like Albany treats LBCC... as this thing that sits over there on the south side of town...
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Post by nabeav on Mar 20, 2019 20:23:03 GMT -8
He had a really bad year. The other four he has won more than he lost.
And if we are just going to keep buying people out for not winning championships, get ready to pay more for tickets and seat donations and parking and hot dogs and everything else. I’m sick of people complaining. Complain about the product. Complain when they ask for more money to improve the product. Complain when the team finishes fourth in the conference because the other teams are bad. Complain that the best players on the team are related to the coaches. Complain that a kid from Oregon chose to come to OSU and then isn’t as good as we hoped. Complain that Hollins should start. Complain that Hollins underperforms.
I’m sick of it. People complaining that Pat Bailey isn’t Pat Casey. People complaining that 13-3-1 isn’t a good enough start. Complain that we might not make it to Omaha. This isn’t a Gary Andersen situation where complaining is warranted because it’s clear that the situation is a trash fire.
I don’t know how we get through life expecting to be the best at everything every year. Yes you hope for that, but good god we can’t go s%#t canning everyone who isn’t the best in their field.
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Post by atownbeaver on Mar 20, 2019 21:02:04 GMT -8
He had a really bad year. The other four he has won more than he lost. And if we are just going to keep buying people out for not winning championships, get ready to pay more for tickets and seat donations and parking and hot dogs and everything else. I’m sick of people complaining. Complain about the product. Complain when they ask for more money to improve the product. Complain when the team finishes fourth in the conference because the other teams are bad. Complain that the best players on the team are related to the coaches. Complain that a kid from Oregon chose to come to OSU and then isn’t as good as we hoped. Complain that Hollins should start. Complain that Hollins underperforms. I’m sick of it. People complaining that Pat Bailey isn’t Pat Casey. People complaining that 13-3-1 isn’t a good enough start. Complain that we might not make it to Omaha. This isn’t a Gary Andersen situation where complaining is warranted because it’s clear that the situation is a trash fire. I don’t know how we get through life expecting to be the best at everything every year. Yes you hope for that, but good god we can’t go s%#t canning everyone who isn’t the best in their field. I basically agree with you. I will definitely voice, like I did already, I was really disappointed how we finished. It wasn't even our record. I think if we landed on 18-13 via a strong finish it would be different. but 7 games ago we were 16-8, we end the year on a 2-5 run. That just really stings. We should of beat the AZ schools, split WA and beat Colorado, based on our performance this year. 21-10 or so and a certain NIT invite, possible play in bid, is a universe better. I hear you, I am not in the fire Tinkle camp. I can be upset at the finish and still have a pragmatic outlook. (people pissing and moaning about Pat Bailey and our 13-3-1 record, given the talent turn over we just experienced can get f%#*ed. if you are bitching about Bailey right now, you are advertising to the world you are dumb as f%#*). As frustrating as it is to miss out on the post season when it was clear we could of been there we all risk tossing the baby out with the bathwater when we start saber rattling for a coaching change. We are only this fired up BECAUSE he built a team good enough to be there, but then faltered at the end. The key consideration is that he did build a contender in Corvallis. it flamed out, but it was in all senses, a contending team. The team ran out of steam. To me, it doesn't spell incompetence. It spell disappointment and the need to address some larger issues still (depth, consistency) but it doesn't spell complete incompetence. Gary Andersen displayed gross incompetence. through and through. He deserves are ire and hate. Tinkle has not. I am open to him getting some heat right now, but we all know he is back next year, and we should all settle the f%#* down pretty quick here and get back to supporting OSU. being grumpy assholes doesn't help make this team better, doesn't help recruiting and doesn't help the overall state of the program.
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Post by blackbug on Mar 20, 2019 21:24:34 GMT -8
Well, you might as well compare that for during CR's tenure so we can get something to compare with. Frankly, I'd expect our recruiting rankings to be right around WSU's. Of course, back in January you said something along the line of WSU's coach's accomplishments having dwarfed those of Tinkle. Ernie has. He should have never taken the WSU job, but he did. But at Oregon he reached heights it seems WT never will. As a PAC12 coach can WT even get a NIT invite, let alone (2) semis? Can he get (5) NCAAs and (2) Elite 8's? Can he even finish in the top half of the Pac12 in 9 of 13 years? A Pac12 championship? Of course maybe Wayne can do all that in the next 8 seasons... And... at least comparing Ernie to Wayne is apples to apples... at least it's not going down the "Ralph" road! PS- CR's recruiting rated at 8.4 (signed three 4* that were not related to him or assistants) and 31-59. CR went 8-10 his 6th year for 39 Pac12 wins... so WT needs just 5 Pac12 Ws next season to 'fly' the inferior Robinson. 8.4 out of 10 teams is different than 8.8 out of 12 teams.
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Post by nabeav on Mar 20, 2019 21:30:30 GMT -8
I basically agree with you. I will definitely voice, like I did already, I was really disappointed how we finished. It wasn't even our record. I think if we landed on 18-13 via a strong finish it would be different. but 7 games ago we were 16-8, we end the year on a 2-5 run. That just really stings. We should of beat the AZ schools, split WA and beat Colorado, based on our performance this year. 21-10 or so and a certain NIT invite, possible play in bid, is a universe better. I hear you, I am not in the fire Tinkle camp. I can be upset at the finish and still have a pragmatic outlook. (people pissing and moaning about Pat Bailey and our 13-3-1 record, given the talent turn over we just experienced can get f%#*ed. if you are bitching about Bailey right now, you are advertising to the world you are dumb as f%#*). As frustrating as it is to miss out on the post season when it was clear we could of been there we all risk tossing the baby out with the bathwater when we start saber rattling for a coaching change. We are only this fired up BECAUSE he built a team good enough to be there, but then faltered at the end. The key consideration is that he did build a contender in Corvallis. it flamed out, but it was in all senses, a contending team. The team ran out of steam. To me, it doesn't spell incompetence. It spell disappointment and the need to address some larger issues still (depth, consistency) but it doesn't spell complete incompetence. Gary Andersen displayed gross incompetence. through and through. He deserves are ire and hate. Tinkle has not. I am open to him getting some heat right now, but we all know he is back next year, and we should all settle the f%#* down pretty quick here and get back to supporting OSU. being grumpy assholes doesn't help make this team better, doesn't help recruiting and doesn't help the overall state of the program. Four of those losses in the last few weeks came down to the final seconds or overtime. It’s not like we lost all our close games this year - we were pretty close to .500 in games decided by five points or less. Hollins blocks out vs. Arizona, maybe we win. Tres bricked two decent looks vs. UCLA in the final seconds and missed them both. Lick Luck is a dumb thing, but sometimes it happens.
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Mar 20, 2019 21:34:35 GMT -8
And Manhattan is 66K little bigger than Corvallis 40 miles from Topeka (pop 125K) and 120 miles from Kansas City... Ames is 25 miles from Des Moines Blacksburg is probably the ONLY one that is arguable as isolated as Corvallis, in terms of population, proximity to freeways and other major population centers, having a decent airport close, etc. (Edit, and yes I realize that OSU is 40 miles from Eugene, but UO owns that town as a direct rival so not sure you can count it...) And Corvallis is 70 miles from Portland which is bigger than any other city mentioned in this conversation. So basically Corvallis is very comparable to exactly ALL of those cities the OP mentioned (Spokane less so, but a big city? Please maybe if you're from Lebanon). The Corvallis metro area is 86k. The Spokane metro area is 556k.
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Mar 20, 2019 21:52:44 GMT -8
Ernie has. He should have never taken the WSU job, but he did. But at Oregon he reached heights it seems WT never will. As a PAC12 coach can WT even get a NIT invite, let alone (2) semis? Can he get (5) NCAAs and (2) Elite 8's? Can he even finish in the top half of the Pac12 in 9 of 13 years? A Pac12 championship? Of course maybe Wayne can do all that in the next 8 seasons... And... at least comparing Ernie to Wayne is apples to apples... at least it's not going down the "Ralph" road! PS- CR's recruiting rated at 8.4 (signed three 4* that were not related to him or assistants) and 31-59. CR went 8-10 his 6th year for 39 Pac12 wins... so WT needs just 5 Pac12 Ws next season to 'fly' the inferior Robinson. 8.4 out of 10 teams is different than 8.8 out of 12 teams. Good point. Half of Robinson’s tenure there were only 10 teams in the league. That affects all of the stats baseba111 has been using.
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Post by baseba1111 on Mar 20, 2019 22:11:54 GMT -8
Ernie has. He should have never taken the WSU job, but he did. But at Oregon he reached heights it seems WT never will. As a PAC12 coach can WT even get a NIT invite, let alone (2) semis? Can he get (5) NCAAs and (2) Elite 8's? Can he even finish in the top half of the Pac12 in 9 of 13 years? A Pac12 championship? Of course maybe Wayne can do all that in the next 8 seasons... And... at least comparing Ernie to Wayne is apples to apples... at least it's not going down the "Ralph" road! PS- CR's recruiting rated at 8.4 (signed three 4* that were not related to him or assistants) and 31-59. CR went 8-10 his 6th year for 39 Pac12 wins... so WT needs just 5 Pac12 Ws next season to 'fly' the inferior Robinson. 8.4 out of 10 teams is different than 8.8 out of 12 teams. History lesson... CR coached in both... 3 seasons each! PS- who said they were the same???
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Post by green85 on Mar 21, 2019 8:19:49 GMT -8
He had a really bad year. The other four he has won more than he lost. And if we are just going to keep buying people out for not winning championships, get ready to pay more for tickets and seat donations and parking and hot dogs and everything else. I’m sick of people complaining. Complain about the product. Complain when they ask for more money to improve the product. Complain when the team finishes fourth in the conference because the other teams are bad. Complain that the best players on the team are related to the coaches. Complain that a kid from Oregon chose to come to OSU and then isn’t as good as we hoped. Complain that Hollins should start. Complain that Hollins underperforms. I’m sick of it. People complaining that Pat Bailey isn’t Pat Casey. People complaining that 13-3-1 isn’t a good enough start. Complain that we might not make it to Omaha. This isn’t a Gary Andersen situation where complaining is warranted because it’s clear that the situation is a trash fire. I don’t know how we get through life expecting to be the best at everything every year. Yes you hope for that, but good god we can’t go s%#t canning everyone who isn’t the best in their field. I basically agree with you. I will definitely voice, like I did already, I was really disappointed how we finished. It wasn't even our record. I think if we landed on 18-13 via a strong finish it would be different. but 7 games ago we were 16-8, we end the year on a 2-5 run. That just really stings. We should of beat the AZ schools, split WA and beat Colorado, based on our performance this year. 21-10 or so and a certain NIT invite, possible play in bid, is a universe better. I hear you, I am not in the fire Tinkle camp. I can be upset at the finish and still have a pragmatic outlook. (people pissing and moaning about Pat Bailey and our 13-3-1 record, given the talent turn over we just experienced can get f%#*ed. if you are bitching about Bailey right now, you are advertising to the world you are dumb as f%#*). As frustrating as it is to miss out on the post season when it was clear we could of been there we all risk tossing the baby out with the bathwater when we start saber rattling for a coaching change. We are only this fired up BECAUSE he built a team good enough to be there, but then faltered at the end. The key consideration is that he did build a contender in Corvallis. it flamed out, but it was in all senses, a contending team. The team ran out of steam. To me, it doesn't spell incompetence. It spell disappointment and the need to address some larger issues still (depth, consistency) but it doesn't spell complete incompetence. Gary Andersen displayed gross incompetence. through and through. He deserves are ire and hate. Tinkle has not. I am open to him getting some heat right now, but we all know he is back next year, and we should all settle the f%#* down pretty quick here and get back to supporting OSU. being grumpy assholes doesn't help make this team better, doesn't help recruiting and doesn't help the overall state of the program. +1 I think fans can be disappointed and still support the coach. As a Duck fan I was VERY disappointed that the 2018-19 team did not perform very well for most of the season. But even after the Ducks lost a game they led by 22 points, I still felt that Coach Altman was a good coach. There are a whole set of factors that determine an outcome in basketball, including coaching. EVERY basketball coach has made mistakes that contributed to a loss by their team. And as I have watched more basketball and read more about everything from practice to off-court stuff, I know that coaches can make errors outside the lines that contribute to fewer wins on the court. I can accept - maybe expect - a coach to fail. I also know that players fail. I know that assistants fail. I know that injuries happen. I know that opponents get better, and get lucky, to beat my favorite team. So, I don't need to lay every short-coming at the feet of the head coach.
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