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Post by TheGlove on Jun 8, 2018 7:41:00 GMT -8
So if the brother "leans" towards believing his daughter, who he's seen on an almost daily basis for the last seven years, why are so many people so convinced that Luke is innocent? I'll speak for myself here, but I'm not "convinced that Luke is innocent." I think there are many others in my boat. Convinced is too strong a word. But I'd say I'm leaning towards his innocence. Maybe it's orange-tinted glasses mixed with a lot of cynicism about how s%#tty people can be to each other when they are broken, sprinkled with an understanding of the legal system. A you a parent though? Put yourself in Josh Heimlich's shoes for a while and try to imagine the delicate line that he has to walk between his kids, his ex-wife, his brother and the rest of the family. I don't think it is too hard a stretch to believe either... 1- Luke's side of the story is 100% true. OR 2. Luke committed the crimes, took a plea to ease the pain for both him, his niece and family, paid his dues, is reformed, was outed by the media and a mistake by Corvallis area law enforcement, and is being unfairly ostracized because of it. Either way, there are no winners here. Everyone involved loses. |
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Post by nabeav on Jun 8, 2018 8:04:04 GMT -8
I am a parent, and I have a six year old daughter. I get nervous when I tell her to say she's five years old if anyone asks when an overpriced event lets kids "5 and under" in free. If anyone asks, our goose is cooked immediately. I think it'd be rather easy to pull her story apart if she was making it up. Remember Balloon Boy? That kid was six, and when questioned about why he hid, he IMMEDIATELY looked at his dad and said "you said we were doing this for the show."
Six year olds suck at lying.
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Post by cmkbeav on Jun 8, 2018 8:09:39 GMT -8
I am a parent, and I have a six year old daughter. I get nervous when I tell her to say she's five years old if anyone asks when an overpriced event lets kids "5 and under" in free. If anyone asks, our goose is cooked immediately. I think it'd be rather easy to pull her story apart if she was making it up. Remember Balloon Boy? That kid was six, and when questioned about why he hid, he IMMEDIATELY looked at his dad and said "you said we were doing this for the show." Six year olds suck at lying. Six year olds are pretty damn good at lying. Especially if they are trying to please a parent. It’s also pretty easy to convince them that something happened to them when it didn’t. There are some really good studies out there that prove this point. |
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Post by spudbeaver on Jun 8, 2018 8:56:21 GMT -8
For some reason, I can't help compare this whole situation to this movie. For the record, I initially wanted him off the team immediately, then changed my mind to believing him after the Eggers story. But.... link |
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Post by ochobeavo on Jun 8, 2018 9:04:54 GMT -8
So if the brother "leans" towards believing his daughter, who he's seen on an almost daily basis for the last seven years, why are so many people so convinced that Luke is innocent? A you a parent though? Put yourself in Josh Heimlich's shoes for a while and try to imagine the delicate line that he has to walk between his kids, his ex-wife, his brother and the rest of the family. I don't think it is too hard a stretch to believe either... 1- Luke's side of the story is 100% true. OR 2. Luke committed the crimes, took a plea to ease the pain for both him, his niece and family, paid his dues, is reformed, was outed by the media and a mistake by Corvallis area law enforcement, and is being unfairly ostracized because of it. Either way, there are no winners here. Everyone involved loses. This is spot on to how I also feel about the whole thing. I absolutely think it's plausible that he and the family made a terrible, short-sighted decision to plead guilty - of course with zero inkling that 15 yr old LH would one day be the best college pitcher in the nation. You're in "how do we quickly make it all go away" mode. Then I think of the ex sister-in-law, contentious custody battle, etc. And again, just enough uncertainty to cloud things further and lead me to think, yeah, maybe he is innocent. And then every single time, I arrive back to " what if he did do it and is straight up lying about it now?" - Now I'm a complete A-hole for believing in him and giving little consideration to the victim. |
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Post by jimbeav on Jun 8, 2018 12:01:50 GMT -8
Never assume how a young child will behave when their parents are divorcing. I guess I'll share my personal story now.
I am currently separated and going through a divorce right now. We have a 4-year-old son. I moved out in February, and am in a contentious legal battle over how much parenting time I get. My first interview with a custody evaluator is Wednesday next week (which I am eager for). There is no reason I shouldn't get 50/50 parenting time, but my wife has not accepted the reality of the situation and is fighting this tooth and nail; she gets super emotional at the mere thought of being away from her baby.
A couple months ago, my wife calls me to talk shortly after I dropped him off from a fun-filled time with dad where we did nothing but laugh and play all afternoon. She tells me that she has two kids at home crying (she also has a 19-year-old daughter from a prior marriage, who has completely taken her mom's side and is not talking to me). Big sister was reading books to the kiddo for bedtime, when she asks, "Do you have fun when you go to daddy's?", and in a completely sad-sack voice he says, "No, I just do it." They talk some more, and apparently he says something about how I just work all the time (something that the wife has loudly complained about with me many times before). Big sister gets upset and cries, then little boy starts crying, and out of nowhere I'm the horrible bad guy.
Here's the thing: Kids aren't dumb. They follow our lead. If a kid's mom is emotionally distressed, they are going to follow her lead, and likely say whatever they think they want to hear or what they think might make them feel better. Every professional that I've relayed this story to tells me the same thing: He was simply mirroring what he's getting from them.
The detailed timeline account from a family friend on angrybeavs.com convinced me more than ever that the mom very well could have been playing some very sick and twisted games here. Mom moved out of state before the divorce was final, and was practically guaranteed to lose custody, and sure enough she basically gave up and stopped fighting the legal battle. Then after the first extended holiday visit to mom's new place in California after the divorce is final, daughter comes home telling stories about uncle Luke. I have no trouble imagining the lengths a 6-year-old would go, with some coaching of course, to help her crying and emotional mother, all for the sole purpose of "being able to be with mommy more." My kid didn't have one ounce of coaching, and threw me under the bus without a thought (unwittingly, of course). With some coaching, I think anything's possible.
Am I convinced this happened? No, of course not. I'm convinced of nothing. There is WAY too much reasonable doubt here to be convinced of ANYTHING. Which is the whole point of the pushback against those who think they are convinced of his guilt. All we know is that Luke fulfilled all of his legal obligations and is good in the eyes of the law. And that is all that should matter to any of us...
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Jun 8, 2018 12:11:26 GMT -8
So if the brother "leans" towards believing his daughter, who he's seen on an almost daily basis for the last seven years, why are so many people so convinced that Luke is innocent? This is a great point. And one that jumped out to me in the Eggers story. It's one thing, if it's just the mom. However, it is both parents, probably the two people that know the child the best in the world. If they both believe the child, I am going to need something pretty powerful on the other side to convince me that Luke is innocent or even probably innocent. I think the closest thing to it was the therapist. But that was released after the case was sealed. So, we only get snippets of what the therapist said. Further, we do not know, if there was any other professional opinions about Luke, because the case is now sealed. If Luke copped a plea to save his family, it is a very heroic act. But the reason that is heroic is because almost everyone is going to think the worst of Luke for copping a plea in that situation. *Spoiler.* It's like the end of the Dark Knight, when Batman gets Gordon to say that Batman murdered Harvey Dent. It was not true, but it was what Gotham needed. Luke may not be the hero that his family deserved, but he was the hero that his family needed. Or he is a lying child molester, who is throwing his niece under the bus. If I had to put money on what is more probable, I load up on the latter scenario being the more likely of the two. I put much more stock on what the parents of a six-year-old have to say than pretty much everyone else involved in the situation. |
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Post by ochobeavo on Jun 8, 2018 12:32:44 GMT -8
Never assume how a young child will behave when their parents are divorcing. I guess I'll share my personal story now. I am currently separated and going through a divorce right now. We have a 4-year-old son. I moved out in February, and am in a contentious legal battle over how much parenting time I get. My first interview with a custody evaluator is Wednesday next week (which I am eager for). There is no reason I shouldn't get 50/50 parenting time, but my wife has not accepted the reality of the situation and is fighting this tooth and nail; she gets super emotional at the mere thought of being away from her baby. Having gone through a divorce with young children years ago, I agree - and while mine wasn't all that contentious by comparison, I can point to a handful of times (when things were at their worst & most emotional for all involved) where words were twisted around, stories changed, things didn't really add up, etc. I also have a coworker who just went through an absolutely brutal custody dispute and there were times where he was shocked, stunned, flat out exhausted just dealing with the ex's blatant lies. No one wins (except for their lawyers)... In any case - I hope you hang in there, it will get better. |
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Post by seastape on Jun 8, 2018 13:50:55 GMT -8
4) Regardless of whether Luke did the things to which he pled, he should have never publicly stated that he did not. If he was unwilling to admit that he did so, then he should have remained silent. Now, a significant chunk of the population is publicly branding him --excoriating him!-- as a liar.
I don't quite get why this is your conclusion. If it is well known by anyone familiar with criminal law that people often plead guilty to crimes they did not commit to avoid the chance of a bad outcome at trial, why would anyone look twice at someone who said that's exactly what they did? SaveSaveIt's for the people who believe that the innocent would never plead guilty...and for those who don't believe him, the denial after an admission can make it worse |
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Post by obf on Jun 12, 2018 7:15:09 GMT -8
So if the brother "leans" towards believing his daughter, who he's seen on an almost daily basis for the last seven years, why are so many people so convinced that Luke is innocent? This is a great point. And one that jumped out to me in the Eggers story. It's one thing, if it's just the mom. However, it is both parents, probably the two people that know the child the best in the world. If they both believe the child, I am going to need something pretty powerful on the other side to convince me that Luke is innocent or even probably innocent. I think the closest thing to it was the therapist. But that was released after the case was sealed. So, we only get snippets of what the therapist said. Further, we do not know, if there was any other professional opinions about Luke, because the case is now sealed. If Luke copped a plea to save his family, it is a very heroic act. But the reason that is heroic is because almost everyone is going to think the worst of Luke for copping a plea in that situation. *Spoiler.* It's like the end of the Dark Knight, when Batman gets Gordon to say that Batman murdered Harvey Dent. It was not true, but it was what Gotham needed. Luke may not be the hero that his family deserved, but he was the hero that his family needed. Or he is a lying child molester, who is throwing his niece under the bus. If I had to put money on what is more probable, I load up on the latter scenario being the more likely of the two. I put much more stock on what the parents of a six-year-old have to say than pretty much everyone else involved in the situation.It is so funny how different people, with different experiences, different upbringings, different families, etc. react to things and read situations. In *MY* experience (with my own children, with the children of others, with my kids' friends parents, in working with kids in various roles over the years) the things a parent says/think about their own children needs to be taken with a HUGE grain of salt. When I was working more with the kids at the farm home, often times the parents were the last people we talked to. Their input was important and valuable, don't get me wrong they have a wealth of info to share, it was taken and considered, but almost universally was also the most extreme and slanted and fraught with emotion and so needed to be considered with a mind and dossier that was already leveled with a base of less extreme opinions and stances. And this is understandable. The Parents have the most at stake, they are the most tied to the child, they are the most emotionally invested, they have the most financial burdens and responsibilities, etc. Just looking at it through the prism of my own parenthood, my children tend to blind me. And different people are blinded differently... When I am trying to correct the behavior of one of my children I tend to be too much of a disciplinarian and want to hear no caveats or excuses, however when someone else is calling attention to one of my kids behaviors I tend to papa bear up and go into protection mode... Anyways, the point is that the actions / words of both Josh and the ex wife are, IMHO, the least reliable indicator of Luke's innocence. There is just to much intertwined emotion, relation, back story, and other agendas. I am much more likely to be persuaded by a more neutral observer like Luke's therapist or the courtroom that gave him a standing ovation, or the doctor that did the forensic investigation (having not read the court case I would be very interested to see what he said about it), of course hearing the niece speak would be great too... Also, if you don't come from a very large family there is another dynamic at play that may be opaque. Don't forget that at the time Luke was 15, Josh was an adult male with a job, a wife, and elementary aged children. I don't know their exact ages, but it is likely that they never really coexisted in the same house, and were never siblings the way someone with a brother only 2 years older were siblings. They didn't play together, they didn't have shared experiences, they aren't even in the same generations. Going five years without much communication between brothers in this family dynamic with NO molestation allegation wouldn't be that unusual. People are reading way too much into the whole "Luke and Josh haven't talked in five years!!!" red herring. Clearly this whole kerfuffle has strained their relationship, and why wouldn't it? That doesn't mean either one is lying... |
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