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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Oct 15, 2024 19:36:24 GMT -8
You cite the offensive rules. For defensive teams, it is a live ball foul. They changed the rule to make it a live ball foul in 2020, because of the rule that allows defenses to respond to an offense's substitution. They said that it was impossible to police the illegal substitution rule for most of the game, because of the interplay between the rules and the 40-second play clock. Can you show me where it says "offensive"?
Go read the entire rule and situational examples. There are situations that change if its a live or dead ball. This was clearly a dead ball event its pretty straightforward. Whatever you are pulling from is old, then. It's always a live ball foul. It has been that way since 2020. |
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Post by beaverchew on Oct 16, 2024 6:52:58 GMT -8
Can you show me where it says "offensive"?
Go read the entire rule and situational examples. There are situations that change if its a live or dead ball. This was clearly a dead ball event its pretty straightforward. Whatever you are pulling from is old, then. It's always a live ball foul. It has been that way since 2020. Like I keep saying read the rule don't get caught up in the situational examples. They depend on the situation and are just examples. The rule is straightforward, go back and read the rule. I kept dropping hints to do that. It much simpler and becomes clear if you just read the rule and apply it. Section 5 – Substitutions Article 2-C-2 A departing player must immediately leave the field of play, including the end zones. A departing player who leaves the huddle or their position within three seconds, after a substitute becomes a player, is considered to have left immediately. PENALTY [c-d]—Dead-ball foul: Five yards from the succeeding spot |
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Post by Henry Skrimshander on Oct 16, 2024 8:03:37 GMT -8
Recently the NCAA outlawed the fake "slide" after Pitt QB Kenny Pickett faked one against Wake Forest, causing the defense to pull up and avoid contact. Pickett kept running and scored a TD. The play was legal, but the rule was changed for the following season.
The same thing might happen here. A deliberate 12th-man penalty will result in a 5-yard walkoff and an expired time being restored to the game clock. That's what the NFL does.
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Post by Henry Skrimshander on Oct 16, 2024 8:27:25 GMT -8
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Oct 16, 2024 12:10:28 GMT -8
The NCAA just announced that they changed the rule two hours ago. With less than two minutes, if the 12th player is not attempting to exit the field, the offense has the option to reset the clock. If the 12th player is attempting to exit the field, there is no clock reset. The NCAA wanted to nip this in the bud. Nobody wants to see a bunch of illegal substitution penalties to end a game. |
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Post by Judge Smails on Oct 16, 2024 12:13:11 GMT -8
The NCAA just announced that they changed the rule a couple of hours ago. With less than two minutes, if the 12th player is not attempting to exit the field, the offense has the option to reset the clock. If the 12th player is attempting to exit the field, there is no clock reset. That still leaves a loophole if you have the 12th player jog off really slowly as the play clock is running down.....It should just be the option of the offense either way to add the time back. |
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Oct 16, 2024 12:20:25 GMT -8
Whatever you are pulling from is old, then. It's always a live ball foul. It has been that way since 2020. Like I keep saying read the rule don't get caught up in the situational examples. They depend on the situation and are just examples. The rule is straightforward, go back and read the rule. I kept dropping hints to do that. It much simpler and becomes clear if you just read the rule and apply it. Section 5 – Substitutions Article 2-C-2 A departing player must immediately leave the field of play, including the end zones. A departing player who leaves the huddle or their position within three seconds, after a substitute becomes a player, is considered to have left immediately. PENALTY [c-d]—Dead-ball foul: Five yards from the succeeding spot I have been told that, beginning in 2020 nationwide, officials were instructed not to make a defense illegal substitution a live ball foul. And the reason was because of issues in enforcing the rule on the defense with the 40-second clock. Regardless of what the rule actually said, that was not the way that it was called. And officials which called it a live ball foul on the defense were graded down. As of Saturday, the correct call was the one called on the field. Live ball foul on the defense with the run-off. The NCAA just fixed this two hours ago by making it a penalty to play with 12 players, and the offense would get the option to reset the clock along with enforcing the penalty. |
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Oct 16, 2024 12:22:09 GMT -8
The NCAA just announced that they changed the rule a couple of hours ago. With less than two minutes, if the 12th player is not attempting to exit the field, the offense has the option to reset the clock. If the 12th player is attempting to exit the field, there is no clock reset. That still leaves a loophole if you have the 12th player jog off really slowly as the play clock is running down.....It should just be the option of the offense either way to add the time back. That's not a loophole. What the NCAA is trying to avoid is more than 11 defensive players playing defense against a team trying to score late in the game. If the slow jogger turns and plays, it is a penalty, and the offense can reset the clock. If the slow jogger runs off, there is no clock reset. |
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Post by atownbeaver on Oct 16, 2024 12:28:16 GMT -8
Can you show me where it says "offensive"?
Go read the entire rule and situational examples. There are situations that change if its a live or dead ball. This was clearly a dead ball event its pretty straightforward. Whatever you are pulling from is old, then. It's always a live ball foul. It has been that way since 2020. They did change it to a live ball foul because in MOST cases a life ball foul is an advantage to the offense. Just like how you don't generally want defensive offsides to blow the play dead. You want the ability for the offensive play to have the better outcome. They changed it to mimic the NFL, so the offense has the capacity to catch the defense in a substitution and get a free 5 yards. The rules are pretty simple. If the player is attempting to leave, it is a dead ball foul. if the player participates, it is a live ball foul. |
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Post by Judge Smails on Oct 16, 2024 12:28:37 GMT -8
That still leaves a loophole if you have the 12th player jog off really slowly as the play clock is running down.....It should just be the option of the offense either way to add the time back. That's not a loophole. What the NCAA is trying to avoid is more than 11 defensive players playing defense against a team trying to score late in the game. If the slow jogger turns and plays, it is a penalty, and the offense can reset the clock. If the slow jogger runs off, there is no clock reset. I'm confused. If the player is exiting the field, it is still a penalty if he is not off of the field. Can the offense reset the clock in that scenario? If the D has 12 players on the field, the O should have the option to reset the clock whether a defender is trying to get off of the field or not. |
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Post by atownbeaver on Oct 16, 2024 12:30:23 GMT -8
The NCAA just announced that they changed the rule a couple of hours ago. With less than two minutes, if the 12th player is not attempting to exit the field, the offense has the option to reset the clock. If the 12th player is attempting to exit the field, there is no clock reset. That still leaves a loophole if you have the 12th player jog off really slowly as the play clock is running down.....It should just be the option of the offense either way to add the time back. Not really, snap the ball. flag, whistle. play is dead, clock is stopped. free 5 yards, now the running clock is stopped too and won't start until you snap it again. Refs do not have to hold the ball until all the players leave, only a reasonable about of time for substitution players to enter. they can, and will whistle the ball ready to play when players are slow jogging off. |
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Post by Judge Smails on Oct 16, 2024 12:31:32 GMT -8
That still leaves a loophole if you have the 12th player jog off really slowly as the play clock is running down.....It should just be the option of the offense either way to add the time back. Not really, snap the ball. flag, whistle. play is dead, clock is stopped. free 5 yards, now the running clock is stopped too and won't start until you snap it again. Refs do not have to hold the ball until all the players leave, only a reasonable about of time for substitution players to enter. they can, and will whistle the ball ready to play when players are slow jogging off. That's not what Wilky said. He said if the player is attempting to leave the field, there is no clock reset. |
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Post by rgeorge on Oct 16, 2024 12:34:03 GMT -8
The NCAA needs to change the substitution rule to a time frame.
The defense in the 12th man situation and delaying substitution to run out the play clock are unsportsmanlike abuses of the rules.
Simply do don't allow ANY substitutions after the play clock hits 15 or or 10 seconds. Any afterward is a penalty or loss of a timeout.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Oct 16, 2024 12:36:59 GMT -8
That's not a loophole. What the NCAA is trying to avoid is more than 11 defensive players playing defense against a team trying to score late in the game. If the slow jogger turns and plays, it is a penalty, and the offense can reset the clock. If the slow jogger runs off, there is no clock reset. I'm confused. If the player is exiting the field, it is still a penalty if he is not off of the field. Can the offense reset the clock in that scenario? If the D has 12 players on the field, the O should have the option to reset the clock whether a defender is trying to get off of the field or not. They changed it to try and combat intentional illegal substitution, because it is likely to be abused by defensive teams at the end of games. If a player is trying to get off the field but cannot quite make it, it is a penalty. As long as he takes no part in the play and continues to exit the field, the defense has no advantage, though. So, the offense does not get a clock reset. |
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Post by beaverchew on Oct 16, 2024 12:43:52 GMT -8
Like I keep saying read the rule don't get caught up in the situational examples. They depend on the situation and are just examples. The rule is straightforward, go back and read the rule. I kept dropping hints to do that. It much simpler and becomes clear if you just read the rule and apply it. Section 5 – Substitutions Article 2-C-2 A departing player must immediately leave the field of play, including the end zones. A departing player who leaves the huddle or their position within three seconds, after a substitute becomes a player, is considered to have left immediately. PENALTY [c-d]—Dead-ball foul: Five yards from the succeeding spot I have been told that, beginning in 2020 nationwide, officials were instructed not to make a defense illegal substitution a live ball foul. And the reason was because of issues in enforcing the rule on the defense with the 40-second clock. Regardless of what the rule actually said, that was not the way that it was called. And officials which called it a live ball foul on the defense were graded down. As of Saturday, the correct call was the one called on the field. Live ball foul on the defense with the run-off. The NCAA just fixed this two hours ago by making it a penalty to play with 12 players, and the offense would get the option to reset the clock along with enforcing the penalty. "Regardless of what the rule actually says". Well that clears it up. You just need some simple reading comprehension and common sense to be a good official. Which is obviously lacking in the committee that issues the stupid situational interpretations. |
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