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Post by bvrblvr on Mar 3, 2023 9:09:36 GMT -8
OSU has played 218 games since 2016. In those games only 10 times has an opponent attempted 24 of more FT's. In the other nine competitions OSU's FTA's were reasonably similar. Not that its the refs job to make sure the FTA's are close. 24 to 4 is just an astounding difference. I wonder how often one team even attempts 20 more FT's than their opponent. Date | Opponent | Opponent FTs | OSU FTs | 1/8/17 | Stanford | 17-26 | 11-14 | 2/19/17 | Utah | 20-25 | 9-16 | 11/17/18 | St. Mary's | 14-26 | 8-14 | 11/24/18 | Notre Dame | 17-29 | 16-23 | 12/8/20 | Utah | 21-25 | 19-24 | 1/26/21 | Washington | 19-32 | 16-22 | 1/31/21 | Utah | 25-30 | 20-28 | 12/26/21 | Michigan | 18-24 | 10-18 | 3/27/22 | UCLA | 19-25 | 14-18 | 3/2/23 | Colorado | 16-24 | 3-4 |
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Post by believeinthebeavs on Mar 3, 2023 11:13:55 GMT -8
OSU shot 0 free throws in the second half while cu went 7/9 and 5/9 in the third and fourth. We only lost by 8.
First half the game was close and the free throws were 3/4 Beavs and 4/6 cu.
I would hope that pac 12 would review the officiating but I wouldn't hold my breath on it.
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Post by grayman on Mar 3, 2023 11:32:38 GMT -8
OSU shot 0 free throws in the second half while cu went 7/9 and 5/9 in the third and fourth. We only lost by 8. First half the game was close and the free throws were 3/4 Beavs and 4/6 cu. I would hope that pac 12 would review the officiating but I wouldn't hold my breath on it. I mean, they won't review it. There's nothing to review unless you think there's some sort of conspiracy involved, which there isn't. The reality is that officials aren't without bias. They are human. They are well aware of the teams they are officiating and they know the different players. I don't believe the bias is overt. I think most officials try their best to be objective. But the better teams will usually get more of the benefit of the doubt. And top players usually do as well. I see this game as an anomaly. The officiating was definitely one-sided and had a huge role in determining the outcome of the game. But that doesn't mean there was something sinister going on. I will add that I believe that the Pac-12 women's basketball officiating as a whole is atrocious. I've officiated lower level hoops and I've watched my share of high school and college crews in action. The Pac-12 crews just don't match up to most. It's too bad.
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Post by believeinthebeavs on Mar 3, 2023 11:47:59 GMT -8
OSU shot 0 free throws in the second half while cu went 7/9 and 5/9 in the third and fourth. We only lost by 8. First half the game was close and the free throws were 3/4 Beavs and 4/6 cu. I would hope that pac 12 would review the officiating but I wouldn't hold my breath on it. I mean, they won't review it. There's nothing to review unless you think there's some sort of conspiracy involved, which there isn't. The reality is that officials aren't without bias. They are human. They are well aware of the teams they are officiating and they know the different players. I don't believe the bias is overt. I think most officials try their best to be objective. But the better teams will usually get more of the benefit of the doubt. And top players usually do as well. I see this game as an anomaly. The officiating was definitely one-sided and had a huge role in determining the outcome of the game. But that doesn't mean there was something sinister going on. I will add that I believe that the Pac-12 women's basketball officiating as a whole is atrocious. I've officiated lower level hoops and I've watched my share of high school and college crews in action. The Pac-12 crews just don't match up to most. It's too bad. They should review it in regards to their officials performance. Something could be done, at the very least break that group up. Or just don't renew their contract. I don't understand how the Pac 12 could have some of the worst officials in the game. Scoville and Barlow are 2 examples that have altered the outcome of games on a regular basis. It was obvious to even the announcers that the officials were very one side in the third period. I'm not a conspiracy theorist but the numbers speak for themselves.
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Post by grayman on Mar 3, 2023 11:55:53 GMT -8
I mean, they won't review it. There's nothing to review unless you think there's some sort of conspiracy involved, which there isn't. The reality is that officials aren't without bias. They are human. They are well aware of the teams they are officiating and they know the different players. I don't believe the bias is overt. I think most officials try their best to be objective. But the better teams will usually get more of the benefit of the doubt. And top players usually do as well. I see this game as an anomaly. The officiating was definitely one-sided and had a huge role in determining the outcome of the game. But that doesn't mean there was something sinister going on. I will add that I believe that the Pac-12 women's basketball officiating as a whole is atrocious. I've officiated lower level hoops and I've watched my share of high school and college crews in action. The Pac-12 crews just don't match up to most. It's too bad. They should review it in regards to their officials performance. Something could be done, at the very least break that group up. Or just don't renew their contract. I don't understand how the Pac 12 could have some of the worst officials in the game. Scoville and Barlow are 2 examples that have altered the outcome of games on a regular basis. It was obvious to even the announcers that the officials were very one side in the third period. I'm not a conspiracy theorist but the numbers speak for themselves. Yeah, they should. What they really need to do is an in-depth review of Pac-12 women's basketball officiating as a whole. But that probably won't happen.
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lefty
Freshman
Posts: 427
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Post by lefty on Mar 3, 2023 12:04:34 GMT -8
The game was extremely physical due to the refs allowing it to be and Colorado took advantage of it. I don't think our young Freshman girls could handle it and you can add Jenna to that group. I'm surprised that Scott didn't get a "T". Don't know if that would have helped or compounded the situation. I did notice that during one timeout that Scott tried to talk one of the female refs that she shook her head and walked away to stand together with another ref.
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Post by rgeorge on Mar 3, 2023 13:14:28 GMT -8
OSU has played 218 games since 2016. In those games only 10 times has an opponent attempted 24 of more FT's. In the other nine competitions OSU's FTA's were reasonably similar. Not that its the refs job to make sure the FTA's are close. 24 to 4 is just an astounding difference. I wonder how often one team even attempts 20 more FT's than their opponent. Date | Opponent | Opponent FTs | OSU FTs | 1/8/17 | Stanford | 17-26 | 11-14 | 2/19/17 | Utah | 20-25 | 9-16 | 11/17/18 | St. Mary's | 14-26 | 8-14 | 11/24/18 | Notre Dame | 17-29 | 16-23 | 12/8/20 | Utah | 21-25 | 19-24 | 1/26/21 | Washington | 19-32 | 16-22 | 1/31/21 | Utah | 25-30 | 20-28 | 12/26/21 | Michigan | 18-24 | 10-18 | 3/27/22 | UCLA | 19-25 | 14-18 | 3/2/23 | Colorado | 16-24 | 3-4 |
I do not post publicly anymore, but do read the board and post privately to a few friends who also still pop in. I wanted to point out some "complete" facts when speaking to FTA, officiating, and the cries it costs OSU games. I'm not a Rueck fan in some ways, but he suddenly didn't become an idiot. He is not playing to lose. He cares more about this program than any person here. He is more confused, frustrated and searching than any fan. The current team is not good for many reasons and one of them is a lack of aggressive play. One could easily state that Beers is the ONLY aggressive player and the only one that plays a position and with a mindset to draw FTA. The rest of the team is basically jump shooters with no slash in their games. TVO was the only other player who had the ability to really take an opponent outside in. That said... from a fairly quick scan thru multiple spreadsheets so #'s could be slightly off... but, there is no bias vs OSU! Each game is it's own entity and complaining about calls and officials in general is part of sports. But, on this board there a few that just can't figure out that officials (umpires) don't cost OSU games, just as they don't win them games. Some have even stated there is a Pac12 conspiracy toward OSU athletics. It's just ridiculous. As someone stated previously... numbers don't lie. And OSU fares pretty well with regard to FTA vs opponents. As far evaluating Pac12 officials with any other conference... I'm curious other than just blatant opinion how that conclusion is drawn? I seen plenty of horrific calls from all over the country. Each conference has their "good" and "bad" official and crews. I have yet to see any national evaluation system that states the Pac12 officiating is terrible or even rated at all. Seems plenty of these crews work multiple conferences and post season games. I wonder if best judges of this talent is not a bias fan base??? As far as being "sinister" as mention above... really? The Pac12 got together and told officials to call an unfair game to eliminate a team? Because? They hate OSU/Rueck? Colorado is NCAA bound no matter the outcome, so they wanted to eliminate a "Cinderella" and a chance for an extra team to make the NCAAs? Why "sinister" this game vs the USC game? OSU has had (25) games since 2016 shooting 24+ FTA vs the (10) opponents have had as mentioned above... and had a +21 vs Oregon shooting 38 attempts. A (+20) is weird but not unheard of when one team is obviously more physical and the other relies on jump shots and turns it over 6-7 times on post entries eliminating any defensive miscue. OSU has shot more FTs than there opponents EVERY season since the given 2016 data point. They have MORE FTA over that time than Pac12 opponents by 170. Only '17-18 (-12) and this season (+0) has OSU not shot more FTs in Pac12 play (includes Pac12 tournament play). In Pac12 play OSU has shot (9) or fewer Fts (31) times. Pac12 opponents (38) times. By Pac12 opponent OSU has the following +/- in FT attempts since the '16-17 season: WSU (+61) Ore (+52) USC (+46) UCLA (+38) Cal (+18) Zona (+9) Colo (+8) Utah (+1) ASU (+0) UW (-2) Furd (-61) Very few programs in any sport have a foundation that allows consistent success. For most of the rest it is cyclical and you try to keep success going for as long as possible, and retool/build as quick as possible. OSU WBB is one of the latter programs. We were elite for a short time, cycle over, time to retool/build and climb back up. Which in many cases is easier than staying elite.
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Post by bvrblvr on Mar 3, 2023 14:12:53 GMT -8
Good point. I thought it was uncommon that one team would have 20 more FTA's than another team - you don't see that often. I said its not the refs job to make sure the attempts are close. Didn't even mention conspiracy or that the refs were any better or worse than usual.
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Post by lotrader on Mar 3, 2023 14:52:47 GMT -8
It is up to the players to figure out how the game is being called. That is part of Basketball IQ.
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Post by believeinthebeavs on Mar 3, 2023 15:37:34 GMT -8
It is up to the players to figure out how the game is being called. That is part of Basketball IQ. They knew how it was being called, they weren't allowed to play the same way. For example AJ was attacked by 2cu players, they all ended up on the floorand AJ was called for the foul. The announcers were sometimes the first contact gets called and sometimes the second one does, the other announcer chuckled or the third.
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escott58
Sophomore
Posts: 1,144
Grad Year: 1983
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Post by escott58 on Mar 3, 2023 15:43:39 GMT -8
Some would say that the Pac-12 couldn't let a low TV-rating and 11-seed that's super-hot win the Tournament. Others would say that OSU never wins the calls when money is on the line because of our bad luck. I agree strongly both ways and really hate watching p-12 officiating in just about any sport. I've forgotten the "egregious" guy's name and his band of merry whistle-blowers -- and, perhaps, the extravagant guys afterwards -- but they didn't give me any comfort with the current system.
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Post by grayman on Mar 3, 2023 15:48:53 GMT -8
OSU has played 218 games since 2016. In those games only 10 times has an opponent attempted 24 of more FT's. In the other nine competitions OSU's FTA's were reasonably similar. Not that its the refs job to make sure the FTA's are close. 24 to 4 is just an astounding difference. I wonder how often one team even attempts 20 more FT's than their opponent. Date | Opponent | Opponent FTs | OSU FTs | 1/8/17 | Stanford | 17-26 | 11-14 | 2/19/17 | Utah | 20-25 | 9-16 | 11/17/18 | St. Mary's | 14-26 | 8-14 | 11/24/18 | Notre Dame | 17-29 | 16-23 | 12/8/20 | Utah | 21-25 | 19-24 | 1/26/21 | Washington | 19-32 | 16-22 | 1/31/21 | Utah | 25-30 | 20-28 | 12/26/21 | Michigan | 18-24 | 10-18 | 3/27/22 | UCLA | 19-25 | 14-18 | 3/2/23 | Colorado | 16-24 | 3-4 |
I do not post publicly anymore, but do read the board and post privately to a few friends who also still pop in. I wanted to point out some "complete" facts when speaking to FTA, officiating, and the cries it costs OSU games. I'm not a Rueck fan in some ways, but he suddenly didn't become an idiot. He is not playing to lose. He cares more about this program than any person here. He is more confused, frustrated and searching than any fan. The current team is not good for many reasons and one of them is a lack of aggressive play. One could easily state that Beers is the ONLY aggressive player and the only one that plays a position and with a mindset to draw FTA. The rest of the team is basically jump shooters with no slash in their games. TVO was the only other player who had the ability to really take an opponent outside in. That said... from a fairly quick scan thru multiple spreadsheets so #'s could be slightly off... but, there is no bias vs OSU! Each game is it's own entity and complaining about calls and officials in general is part of sports. But, on this board there a few that just can't figure out that officials (umpires) don't cost OSU games, just as they don't win them games. Some have even stated there is a Pac12 conspiracy toward OSU athletics. It's just ridiculous. As someone stated previously... numbers don't lie. And OSU fares pretty well with regard to FTA vs opponents. As far evaluating Pac12 officials with any other conference... I'm curious other than just blatant opinion how that conclusion is drawn? I seen plenty of horrific calls from all over the country. Each conference has their "good" and "bad" official and crews. I have yet to see any national evaluation system that states the Pac12 officiating is terrible or even rated at all. Seems plenty of these crews work multiple conferences and post season games. I wonder if best judges of this talent is not a bias fan base??? As far as being "sinister" as mention above... really? The Pac12 got together and told officials to call an unfair game to eliminate a team? Because? They hate OSU/Rueck? Colorado is NCAA bound no matter the outcome, so they wanted to eliminate a "Cinderella" and a chance for an extra team to make the NCAAs? Why "sinister" this game vs the USC game? OSU has had (25) games since 2016 shooting 24+ FTA vs the (10) opponents have had as mentioned above... and had a +21 vs Oregon shooting 38 attempts. A (+20) is weird but not unheard of when one team is obviously more physical and the other relies on jump shots and turns it over 6-7 times on post entries eliminating any defensive miscue. OSU has shot more FTs than there opponents EVERY season since the given 2016 data point. They have MORE FTA over that time than Pac12 opponents by 170. Only '17-18 (-12) and this season (+0) has OSU not shot more FTs in Pac12 play (includes Pac12 tournament play). In Pac12 play OSU has shot (9) or fewer Fts (31) times. Pac12 opponents (38) times. By Pac12 opponent OSU has the following +/- in FT attempts since the '16-17 season: WSU (+61) Ore (+52) USC (+46) UCLA (+38) Cal (+18) Zona (+9) Colo (+8) Utah (+1) ASU (+0) UW (-2) Furd (-61) Very few programs in any sport have a foundation that allows consistent success. For most of the rest it is cyclical and you try to keep success going for as long as possible, and retool/build as quick as possible. OSU WBB is one of the latter programs. We were elite for a short time, cycle over, time to retool/build and climb back up. Which in many cases is easier than staying elite. You took my comment including the word "sinister" out of context....I said basically that there is nothing sinister going on
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Post by beaverstever on Mar 3, 2023 16:03:56 GMT -8
Basketball is a sport that generally rewards the aggressor, until the opponent finds ways to make it work against them, and we rarely did the latter. Last night the foul totals were close - 18-15; did the refs internally call OSU's fouls when CU was shooting, and not when OSU was? No - we could when we were beat and on our heels. Their fouls were called large when they were trying to cause a TO long before a shot was taken. When we fouled, it was almost always when they were in a position to score. The late foul given to Foreman late in the game is a good example of an ill-advised one that gave up 3 FTs with one foul - that will really add to the FT imbalance.
Fouls are an asset that every team has - they get up to 20 per game that can be used to prevent a team from getting into a scoring position without giving up FTs - and CU spends them on aggressively defending the dribble and passing lanes seeking steals. Hard to fault CU for using 15 of them in a way that only resulted in 4 ft attempts. That's using them really wisely - they probably wished they'd spent a few more.
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Post by grayman on Mar 3, 2023 19:11:39 GMT -8
Where are all the people crying conspiracy? Where are all the people claiming that OSU loses all its games because of the officiating? Other than complaining about individual calls from game to game, which is to be expected on a message board, this is really a nothingburger. As far as I can tell, this is the only game that has really been questioned after the fact because of the discrepancy in free throws. Interestingly, I've seen one very negative reaction to the officiating by a former player. So it's possible that some on this board might be right about the game. But who really cares? Calling out people for complaining about the refs on a message board is really not much more than calling them out for just being on the message board.
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Post by grad1973 on Mar 20, 2023 11:36:55 GMT -8
Where are all the people crying conspiracy? Where are all the people claiming that OSU loses all its games because of the officiating? Other than complaining about individual calls from game to game, which is to be expected on a message board, this is really a nothingburger. As far as I can tell, this is the only game that has really been questioned after the fact because of the discrepancy in free throws. Interestingly, I've seen one very negative reaction to the officiating by a former player. So it's possible that some on this board might be right about the game. But who really cares? Calling out people for complaining about the refs on a message board is really not much more than calling them out for just being on the message board. I waited a while to want to share this. This years losses against Colorado were hard to stomach. The one at home getting beat by twenty at home was probably the loss that tasted the worst as a loss. But lead me to ask a question. Sherrod was primarily why they hurt us. But Sherrod is a senior. I asked myself this is the 6 time we played Colorado with her on board. I asked how many times while she played against us did we beat them. I found in the last three years we beat them several times when she played against us. She was the same speed then as now. What was the difference. My take away is this, We had better back court play when we beat them then our recruiting led to in the last two years. 2021 we split 2022 we lost out. But 2020 we won out. My take away is the losses are mounting do to our back court play! IE a change in back court talent! That has evolved of late.
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