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Post by beaverinohio on May 16, 2022 15:17:35 GMT -8
Comes down to recruiting. WT was getting low 3-star and high-2stars at Montana primarily with some mid-3 stars mixed in. Outside of the family trees, he’s only been getting primarily mid to high 3-stars stars at OSU. Hard to consistently win at a P5 school with those types of recruits unless you are recruiting for a well-defined system and know exactly what you want in players to run that system well. WT and OSU don’t have such a system, so basically his teams are undermanned consistently. If/when WT is let go in the future, I think they really need to look at coaches that run a well-defined specific system either on offense or defense (or both). Which system(s) is really less important than having one and being able to recruit at a high level for that system. I just have my doubts that the Beavers will ever (or at least in my lifetime) be able to simply out recruit the rest of the Pac 12 to be a consistent winner. I agree with what you say here, but I think OSU should be able to consider itself a program that can win a decent amount of the time with losing periods in between. Basketball needs to recruit only 2-3 (mostly 3) good players/year to have a decent program that has above average seasons and finishes in the top 4 of the conference a decent percentage of the time. Can OSU go to the NCAAs (or at least NIT) every year? No, but expecting the post-season 30-50% of the time with should not be too much to expect. I know that's a broad range, but with OSU's budget we should expect down times but also should expect good seasons every so often, as well. We may not have the resources to be there 9 years out of ten, but to be in the NCAAs or the NIT 2-5 times a decade should not be too much to expect. Tinkle is close, but his two dismal seasons stick out. He is also consistently slow to get the team going and I think we lose a lot of post-season opportunities because of it. His teams usually aren't ready to go until February at the earliest and we lose a lot of winnable games because of it. Agreed. I think the Beavers should be able to make it to a post-season tourney 2 out of 5 years — and be competitive or thereabouts the other seasons. Sure there is going to be a “down” year occasionally, but to have two seasons that you did not win 6 games is ridiculous. I’d be curious to know if any P5 coach whose teams have had two terrible seasons like that remained employed after the second one. Maybe a coach or three took over a real dumpster fire and had terrible seasons like that in their first two years, and remained employed — but that is likely a real short list too. I know finances hinder the Beavs from making a move, but damn man. |
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on May 16, 2022 15:56:04 GMT -8
He made it to the Tournament twice. Oregon State got screwed in 2019. (San Diego got into the NIT with a worse record and finish in the West Coast Conference.) Oregon State was basically a lock to go to the NIT in 2020, but COVID-19 wiped it out. 2014-15 was a great season, given the fact that Robinson left the cupboards almost completely bare. 2017-18 was so-so, about what you would expect from Oregon State every year. (But far better than what Oregon State has received from every coach not named Tinkle since Ralph Miller retired.) And there were the two dumpster fire seasons. Tinkle is not close. Tinkle has greatly exceeded expectations and greatly exceeded what you could expect from a normal coach considering the complete lack of commitment from the boosters/Athletic Department. Every year that Oregon State is not .500 or worse is due to superior coaching or superior talent. The down years suck, but I would rather have down years with a 1/7 shot of a Pac-12 Championship than just finishing .500 (or probably worse) every year with a different coach. Tinkle has never won a Pac-12 Championship. But, Jimmy Anderson has. A Tournament Championship is a Pac-12 Championship. Just like a Regular Season Championship is a Pac-12 Championship. See, e.g., Pac-12.com In 1990, Oregon State tied Arizona as Co-Champions of the Pac-10 and won the Regular Season Championship on tiebreakers. Arizona won the conference Tournament and were both the Pac-12 Regular Season and Tournament Champions. I don't know what you're trying to say. |
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on May 16, 2022 15:58:30 GMT -8
I agree with what you say here, but I think OSU should be able to consider itself a program that can win a decent amount of the time with losing periods in between. Basketball needs to recruit only 2-3 (mostly 3) good players/year to have a decent program that has above average seasons and finishes in the top 4 of the conference a decent percentage of the time. Can OSU go to the NCAAs (or at least NIT) every year? No, but expecting the post-season 30-50% of the time with should not be too much to expect. I know that's a broad range, but with OSU's budget we should expect down times but also should expect good seasons every so often, as well. We may not have the resources to be there 9 years out of ten, but to be in the NCAAs or the NIT 2-5 times a decade should not be too much to expect. Tinkle is close, but his two dismal seasons stick out. He is also consistently slow to get the team going and I think we lose a lot of post-season opportunities because of it. His teams usually aren't ready to go until February at the earliest and we lose a lot of winnable games because of it. Agreed. I think the Beavers should be able to make it to a post-season tourney 2 out of 5 years — and be competitive or thereabouts the other seasons. Sure there is going to be a “down” year occasionally, but to have two seasons that you did not win 6 games is ridiculous. I’d be curious to know if any P5 coach whose teams have had two terrible seasons like that remained employed after the second one. Maybe a coach or three took over a real dumpster fire and had terrible seasons like that in their first two years, and remained employed — but that is likely a real short list too. I know finances hinder the Beavs from making a move, but damn man. There is an Elite Eight between the two sub-six-win-seasons. I mean, who else has ever had a sub-six-win season following a Tournament berth twice? |
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Post by Judge Smails on May 16, 2022 16:39:13 GMT -8
Tinkle has never won a Pac-12 Championship. But, Jimmy Anderson has. A Tournament Championship is a Pac-12 Championship. Just like a Regular Season Championship is a Pac-12 Championship. See, e.g., Pac-12.com In 1990, Oregon State tied Arizona as Co-Champions of the Pac-10 and won the Regular Season Championship on tiebreakers. Arizona won the conference Tournament and were both the Pac-12 Regular Season and Tournament Champions. I don't know what you're trying to say. The PAC 12 Tournament Champ is not the the PAC 12 Champ. They are two different things. The PAC 12 Champ is the regular season Champ. That is always how the conference has defined it. We didn’t win the league by winning 4 games in a row. |
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Post by Henry Skrimshander on May 16, 2022 17:59:34 GMT -8
The Pac-12 awards two championships in men's and women's basketball. The regular-season championship, and the tournament championship. Two separate banners, two separate trophies.
OSU and Wayne Tinkle won the 2021 Pac-12 tournament championship. It is considered a Pac-12 championship.
It's not that difficult.
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Post by beaverinohio on May 16, 2022 18:58:50 GMT -8
A Tournament Championship is a Pac-12 Championship. Just like a Regular Season Championship is a Pac-12 Championship. See, e.g., Pac-12.com In 1990, Oregon State tied Arizona as Co-Champions of the Pac-10 and won the Regular Season Championship on tiebreakers. Arizona won the conference Tournament and were both the Pac-12 Regular Season and Tournament Champions. I don't know what you're trying to say. The PAC 12 Tournament Champ is not the the PAC 12 Champ. They are two different things. The PAC 12 Champ is the regular season Champ. That is always how the conference has defined it. We didn’t win the league by winning 4 games in a row. Interestingly, according to the Pac 12 website, they call it the regular season champions and then the tournament championship. I’m fairly certain the Big 10 (and other conferences) consider the regular season conference champs as winning the conference title. I do know that most BIG fans consider the conference title as a much larger accomplishment than the conf tourney champ. And this is coming from an Illinois fan, whose team won the conference tourney in 2020 and shared the conference title this year |
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Post by beaverinohio on May 16, 2022 19:09:49 GMT -8
Agreed. I think the Beavers should be able to make it to a post-season tourney 2 out of 5 years — and be competitive or thereabouts the other seasons. Sure there is going to be a “down” year occasionally, but to have two seasons that you did not win 6 games is ridiculous. I’d be curious to know if any P5 coach whose teams have had two terrible seasons like that remained employed after the second one. Maybe a coach or three took over a real dumpster fire and had terrible seasons like that in their first two years, and remained employed — but that is likely a real short list too. I know finances hinder the Beavs from making a move, but damn man. There is an Elite Eight between the two sub-six-win-seasons. I mean, who else has ever had a sub-six-win season following a Tournament berth twice? Really? Wow didn’t realize that. Again goes to the point I was making that Beavers have not been — nor do I think they ever will be — consistent winners under Tinkle. I enjoyed both the seasons you mentioned, and while he deserves our thanks for them they shouldn’t earn Tinkle a lifetime contract. |
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Post by beaver94 on May 16, 2022 19:15:00 GMT -8
There is an Elite Eight between the two sub-six-win-seasons. I mean, who else has ever had a sub-six-win season following a Tournament berth twice? Really? Wow didn’t realize that. Again goes to the point I was making that Beavers have not been — nor do I think they ever will be — consistent winners under Tinkle. I enjoyed both the seasons you mentioned, and while he deserves our thanks for them they shouldn’t earn Tinkle a lifetime contract. I don’t believe he has one, and if next year isn’t an improvement, he’ll most likely be gone. The years between his two down years are why he isn’t gone now. If they’d been closer together, and not right after an elite 8, I’m sure he’d already be gone. |
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on May 16, 2022 19:22:50 GMT -8
The PAC 12 Tournament Champ is not the the PAC 12 Champ. They are two different things. The PAC 12 Champ is the regular season Champ. That is always how the conference has defined it. We didn’t win the league by winning 4 games in a row. Interestingly, according to the Pac 12 website, they call it the regular season champions and then the tournament championship. I’m fairly certain the Big 10 (and other conferences) consider the regular season conference champs as winning the conference title. I do know that most BIG fans consider the conference title as a much larger accomplishment than the conf tourney champ. And this is coming from an Illinois fan, whose team won the conference tourney in 2020 and shared the conference title this year A team that finishes first in the conference or wins the Tournament is the conference champion in the Pac-12. It is not an either/or situation. It is both. Other conferences may handle it differently. |
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on May 16, 2022 19:24:11 GMT -8
A Tournament Championship is a Pac-12 Championship. Just like a Regular Season Championship is a Pac-12 Championship. See, e.g., Pac-12.com In 1990, Oregon State tied Arizona as Co-Champions of the Pac-10 and won the Regular Season Championship on tiebreakers. Arizona won the conference Tournament and were both the Pac-12 Regular Season and Tournament Champions. I don't know what you're trying to say. The PAC 12 Tournament Champ is not the the PAC 12 Champ. They are two different things. The PAC 12 Champ is the regular season Champ. That is always how the conference has defined it. We didn’t win the league by winning 4 games in a row. Check the website and get back to me. |
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Post by Judge Smails on May 16, 2022 19:33:33 GMT -8
The PAC 12 Tournament Champ is not the the PAC 12 Champ. They are two different things. The PAC 12 Champ is the regular season Champ. That is always how the conference has defined it. We didn’t win the league by winning 4 games in a row. Interestingly, according to the Pac 12 website, they call it the regular season champions and then the tournament championship. I’m fairly certain the Big 10 (and other conferences) consider the regular season conference champs as winning the conference title. I do know that most BIG fans consider the conference title as a much larger accomplishment than the conf tourney champ. And this is coming from an Illinois fan, whose team won the conference tourney in 2020 and shared the conference title this year That’s what I’ve been saying. We were the tournament champs. Not the same as a PAC 12 Champions which is the regular season champ. |
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on May 16, 2022 19:37:02 GMT -8
Interestingly, according to the Pac 12 website, they call it the regular season champions and then the tournament championship. I’m fairly certain the Big 10 (and other conferences) consider the regular season conference champs as winning the conference title. I do know that most BIG fans consider the conference title as a much larger accomplishment than the conf tourney champ. And this is coming from an Illinois fan, whose team won the conference tourney in 2020 and shared the conference title this year That’s what I’ve been saying. We were the tournament champs. Not the same as a PAC 12 Champions which is the regular season champ. That appears to be different than the website, and UCLA, in particular, handles it differently. |
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Post by Judge Smails on May 16, 2022 19:37:22 GMT -8
The PAC 12 Tournament Champ is not the the PAC 12 Champ. They are two different things. The PAC 12 Champ is the regular season Champ. That is always how the conference has defined it. We didn’t win the league by winning 4 games in a row. Check the website and get back to me. I did. Big difference between conference champs and conference tournament champs. Yes, we won a championship in the tourney, but that is not the conference champ. That was the ucks in 20-21. |
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Post by Judge Smails on May 16, 2022 19:39:25 GMT -8
That’s what I’ve been saying. We were the tournament champs. Not the same as a PAC 12 Champions which is the regular season champ. That appears to be different than the website, and UCLA, in particular, handles it differently. Where are you seeing this in the website? I found where it shows regular season and tournament champs each year. The regular season champ has always been the PAC 12 champ. What is ucla showing? |
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Post by Judge Smails on May 16, 2022 20:01:19 GMT -8
The Pac-12 awards two championships in men's and women's basketball. The regular-season championship, and the tournament championship. Two separate banners, two separate trophies. OSU and Wayne Tinkle won the 2021 Pac-12 tournament championship. It is considered a Pac-12 championship. It's not that difficult. That is what I’ve been saying. I don’t get all of the confusion. A tournament championship is fine, but the regular season champ is a much bigger accomplishment and the that is who is recognized as the conference champ. |
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