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Post by Werebeaver on Jan 20, 2022 6:37:46 GMT -8
Voted 1st team all pro!! Incredible achievement. That is awesome. A Fighting Fisherman makes good.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Jan 20, 2022 12:37:58 GMT -8
Oregon State was 1-10, during Reggie Tongue's senior season. Tongue was the best Free Safety in the country in 1995 but on one of the worst teams and so got stiffed. It happens. Tongue leads all defensive backs with 40 consecutive starts, starting with the California game in 1992. The early part of those starts were starts at corner. Tongue was a Running Back in high school, who was converted into a Corner before finally being converted into a Free Safety.Reggie Tongue had a 75-yard fumble return against Wazzu in 1993, which is Oregon State's longest fumble return since 1916. Tongue scored all of the Beavers' points in the game. Tongue had two pick-sixes in a game in 1994 for a combined 103 yards, an Oregon State record. That is also a Reser Stadium record. Tongue had a third pick-six in 1994 for three total pick-sixes in 1994, an Oregon State record. The current Media Guide is wrong and shorts Tongue a career pick-six. Tongue had four (one in 1993 and three in 1994) pick-sixes, most ever at Oregon State. Tongue had 362 tackles, most by a non-MLB at Oregon State by 63. Washington's Lawyer Milloy won the Jack Tatum Trophy as a Strong Safety. No argument. Colorado State's Myers was the consensus All-American Free Safety in 1995 and the Thorpe Award winner. He was not in the same level as Tongue and had no business winning the Thorpe over Tongue in 1995. Meh. Man, you love to cherry pick stats. You go with consecutive starts because 6 DB's have more career starts than him. How do you explain that Poyer had 30 more interception return yards in his career? How did you explain that Reggie is not even in the top 11 in career interceptions? Maybe you should have hung your hat on Mitch Meeuwsen. How do you explain that Poyer had over 2,000 all purpose yards (punt & kick returns) in addition to being an All-America defensive back. You tried to use all purpose yards as an argument for Robb Thomas, but when they go against your argument, you completely ignore them? Then you say he was overlooked because he was on a bad team, yet then you note that he had the most tackles by any non-MLB? Hmmmm, you think those might be related? That maybe our defensive front was garbage back then and he was making tackles 7-10 yards down the field. Poyer's not one of the six, so it does not effect the analysis. Plus, all but Andrae Holland and William Ephraim benefited from 12+ game schedules that Tongue never got to take advantage of. I hate comparing stats between the last 23 years and before, because I am almost 100% sure that the Media Guide shorts the pre-1999 players. Reggie Tongue's pick-six numbers in the Media Guide are short a full pick-six. So, how do I explain it? It might be dead wrong? As for return yardage, Hass was not fast or shifty enough to be a meaningful returner. But Tongue could have been a primary returner. Pettibone's primary returners, though, were Marc Williams, DeShawn Williams, Armon Hatcher and Cameron Reynolds. I understand Williams returning kickoffs, but Tongue should have been the primary punt returner over Reynolds and Williams. Maybe Pettibone realized that Tongue would be so busy playing defense by himself that he would not have enough energy left in the tank to also return kicks? Or this may be one of those Mike Riley is a much better coach than Jerry Pettibone things? There is a reason that Oregon State went 1-10 in 1995 and 9-4 in 2012. Looking at Combine numbers, Tongue was taller and bigger with bigger hands, Tongue had a faster 40-yard dash, 20-yard shuttle and 60-yard shuttle and a higher vertical leap. Poyer was shorter with smaller hands but longer arms. Poyer was slower in the 40 but was better in the 20-yard dash. Give Tongue enough time to hit top speed, he was faster. But Poyer was faster out of the blocks. Poyer could not jump as high but could jump further. 90th percentile measurements: for Tongue, it was hand size. Upper 90th percentile. The next best stat was Poyer's speed out of the block. His 10-yard dash scores are in the upper 90 percentile for a player his size. 80th percentile measurements: the next-best stat was Poyer's hand size, followed by Tongue's 20- and 60-yard shuttle times 70th percentile measurements: Tongue's 10- and 40-yard dash times, and Poyer's 20-yard dash. Overall, what stands out is that neither was that good of a jumper and neither was that strong. Both were fast. Poyer was good inside 20-yards but seemed to fade at the Combine after that. Tongue had a higher top speed but took longer to get there. But Tongue could also change directions faster than Poyer. Both had great hands and were great catchers, but Poyer's arm length enabled him to play bigger than he was. Personally, I believe that Poyer was probably overall more talented, but he was playing out-of-position at Oregon State. Actually, to be fair both were playing out of position. Both really only hit their stride after being converted to Strong Safeties in the NFL. However, neither had the talent around them at Oregon State to play their correct position. Poyer, though, trying to play Corner, especially in a Banker system, was playing more out of position than Tongue playing Free Safety. When Poyer played in a nickel defense, I think that you saw a lot more of his natural talents on display.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Jan 20, 2022 12:49:53 GMT -8
A little bummed we still haven't seen 30000 words on Al Afalava > Jordan Poyer. It's all your fault! Once you give the self proclaimed "Ben Franklin" (much like), but not enough... "He that would live in peace & at ease, Must not speak all he knows or judge all he sees.” - Poor Richard’s Almanack, 1736 😁 "Love your Enemies, for they tell you your Faults." - Poor Richard's Almanack, 1756
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Post by beaverstever on Jan 20, 2022 13:18:22 GMT -8
From an eye test, agree that nobody comes close to Tongue. Some of those discussed could take away part of the field from the opposing offense, but Tongue could win whole games basically by himself - from the defensive side of the ball.
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Post by Judge Smails on Jan 20, 2022 13:51:15 GMT -8
From an eye test, agree that nobody comes close to Tongue. Some of those discussed could take away part of the field from the opposing offense, but Tongue could win whole games basically by himself - from the defensive side of the ball. Well, then Tongue won a whopping 10 games in 4 years by himself.
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Post by Judge Smails on Jan 20, 2022 13:53:00 GMT -8
Man, you love to cherry pick stats. You go with consecutive starts because 6 DB's have more career starts than him. How do you explain that Poyer had 30 more interception return yards in his career? How did you explain that Reggie is not even in the top 11 in career interceptions? Maybe you should have hung your hat on Mitch Meeuwsen. How do you explain that Poyer had over 2,000 all purpose yards (punt & kick returns) in addition to being an All-America defensive back. You tried to use all purpose yards as an argument for Robb Thomas, but when they go against your argument, you completely ignore them? Then you say he was overlooked because he was on a bad team, yet then you note that he had the most tackles by any non-MLB? Hmmmm, you think those might be related? That maybe our defensive front was garbage back then and he was making tackles 7-10 yards down the field. Poyer's not one of the six, so it does not effect the analysis. Plus, all but Andrae Holland and William Ephraim benefited from 12+ game schedules that Tongue never got to take advantage of. I hate comparing stats between the last 23 years and before, because I am almost 100% sure that the Media Guide shorts the pre-1999 players. Reggie Tongue's pick-six numbers in the Media Guide are short a full pick-six. So, how do I explain it? It might be dead wrong? As for return yardage, Hass was not fast or shifty enough to be a meaningful returner. But Tongue could have been a primary returner. Pettibone's primary returners, though, were Marc Williams, DeShawn Williams, Armon Hatcher and Cameron Reynolds. I understand Williams returning kickoffs, but Tongue should have been the primary punt returner over Reynolds and Williams. Maybe Pettibone realized that Tongue would be so busy playing defense by himself that he would not have enough energy left in the tank to also return kicks? Or this may be one of those Mike Riley is a much better coach than Jerry Pettibone things? There is a reason that Oregon State went 1-10 in 1995 and 9-4 in 2012. Looking at Combine numbers, Tongue was taller and bigger with bigger hands, Tongue had a faster 40-yard dash, 20-yard shuttle and 60-yard shuttle and a higher vertical leap. Poyer was shorter with smaller hands but longer arms. Poyer was slower in the 40 but was better in the 20-yard dash. Give Tongue enough time to hit top speed, he was faster. But Poyer was faster out of the blocks. Poyer could not jump as high but could jump further. 90th percentile measurements: for Tongue, it was hand size. Upper 90th percentile. The next best stat was Poyer's speed out of the block. His 10-yard dash scores are in the upper 90 percentile for a player his size. 80th percentile measurements: the next-best stat was Poyer's hand size, followed by Tongue's 20- and 60-yard shuttle times 70th percentile measurements: Tongue's 10- and 40-yard dash times, and Poyer's 20-yard dash. Overall, what stands out is that neither was that good of a jumper and neither was that strong. Both were fast. Poyer was good inside 20-yards but seemed to fade at the Combine after that. Tongue had a higher top speed but took longer to get there. But Tongue could also change directions faster than Poyer. Both had great hands and were great catchers, but Poyer's arm length enabled him to play bigger than he was. Personally, I believe that Poyer was probably overall more talented, but he was playing out-of-position at Oregon State. Actually, to be fair both were playing out of position. Both really only hit their stride after being converted to Strong Safeties in the NFL. However, neither had the talent around them at Oregon State to play their correct position. Poyer, though, trying to play Corner, especially in a Banker system, was playing more out of position than Tongue playing Free Safety. When Poyer played in a nickel defense, I think that you saw a lot more of his natural talents on display. Nothing like coming back with a hand size argument......LOL
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Post by orangeattack on Jan 20, 2022 16:19:15 GMT -8
I don't know how you can legitimately compare players from two different eras and expect stats to tell any type of a convincing story. Sure you are going to have some players who are going to have success in just about any era but in particular interception stats look different when you have offenses putting the ball in the air 50-60 times in a game. There virtually was no such thing during the era that Tongue was playing, for instance. I honestly think that you can't make an argument solely based on stats. Even trying to compare a combine measurable is somewhat of a quixotic task, because not only are the training methods, nutrition, and technique vastly improved, but prior to 1999 the NFL did not use electronic timers to record performance. 10, 20, and 40 yard dash times that are hand-timed are notoriously inaccurate.
As TheGlove would say, "stats are for loosers".
If you're trying to make an honest comparison between two different players who were on the field decades apart, there is only way to create a fair comparison: Greatness relative to their peers, in each player's respective era, with a healthy dose of subjective analysis. In wilky's defense, he uses the stats to bolster his case because he knows that his subjective analysis can and will be argued with.
Welcome to the offseason, gang. At least we aren't arguing about The Rona.
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Post by seastape on Jan 20, 2022 17:45:04 GMT -8
Regarding Tongue: Bill Walsh coached Stanford (for the second time) from 1992-94, the Pettibone era at OSU. I was told that during that time that Bill Walsh said it was virtually impossible to practice for OSU because there was no way for their scout team to effectively run the wishbone against the Stanford defense. My thought was then the opposite must be true: OSU could not prepare for any Pac 10 offense during the Pettibone era because our scout team did not have the players to run an effective passing game against the OSU defense.
I don't know how true that is, but if so, even to some degree, then Tongue's performance at the time becomes all the more impressive because he essentially only saw an effective passing game during his playing career on the days that OSU played a game. So...11 times a season. And he was still a great DB.
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Post by vhalum92 on Jan 21, 2022 10:00:43 GMT -8
I love the spirited discussion.... Huge fan of Poyer and Tongue! Watched them both at all the home games. Having said that I wonder what we would be saying about Weathersby if it were not for the two incidents after OSU that stymied his NFL career.
He was a possible first round for sure second round pick before being shot in the back.... was picked in the 4th round by the Bengals and then was in his car accident after one year in the league that ended his career.
I feel like he was the Best OSU DB I have had the honor of watching. Maybe it was that he was also on winning teams but man that kid could do it all... excepted I don't remember him returning kicks or punts... so he could do it all on defense.
Anyway, we all decide for ourselves who was 'better'.
Fun conversations to have. Who is next to enter this discussion?
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Post by Judge Smails on Jan 21, 2022 10:14:09 GMT -8
I love the spirited discussion.... Huge fan of Poyer and Tongue! Watched them both at all the home games. Having said that I wonder what we would be saying about Weathersby if it were not for the two incidents after OSU that stymied his NFL career. He was a possible first round for sure second round pick before being shot in the back.... was picked in the 4th round by the Bengals and then was in his car accident after one year in the league that ended his career. I feel like he was the Best OSU DB I have had the honor of watching. Maybe it was that he was also on winning teams but man that kid could do it all... excepted I don't remember him returning kicks or punts... so he could do it all on defense. Anyway, we all decide for ourselves who was 'better'. Fun conversations to have. Who is next to enter this discussion? He was by far the best true CB that we've had. Jordan & Tongue were good as CB's, but better as safeties. It was a shame what happened to him. Getting shot and then in a car accident. Tough times.
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Post by vhalum92 on Jan 21, 2022 11:11:40 GMT -8
If you have a few minutes.... here are the best Weathersby highlights I have found. For those of you who were possibly not around to watch Weathersby. Dennis
Fast forward to about 4:30 on that NFL draft day clip Here is the media guide write up for the best season of modern times (2000—Sophomore)—Dennis was the only player in the Pacific-10 Conference to be named to the All-Pacific-10 Conference team by the coaches and also earn first team honors on the Pac-10 All-Academic team (with a 3.32 GPA in liberal studies)…Dennis was also selected first team All-Pac-10 by College Football News and he was selected to the 2000 Verizon Academic All-District VIII Football Team…he was selected honorable mention All-American by The Football News and All-Pac-10 by the same publication…Dennis played in all 12 games and started 10 games…he did not start against WSU and California as he had nagging injuries that cut into his practice time…Dennis produced 109 defensive points to rank 14th among Beaver defenders…he had 17 tackles (14 solo), recorded a tackle for loss, broke up 13 passes and intercepted 2 passes…he intercepted passes against USC and Washington State…he broke up a pass in every game but the Stanford, WSU, Arizona and Oregon games…he had 3 break ups at California, 2 at Washington and 2 vs. San Diego State…after his sensational freshman season in 1999, opponents tended to go away from Dennis with their passing game…Dennis entered his sophomore season having started all 12 games of his career and earning freshman All-American and second team All-Pac-10 honors following his rookie season...Dennis posted lifting bests of 320 in the back squat, 270 in the bench press and 258 in the power clean during winter conditioning. I love that they posted there one rep max lifts. What is crazy is I can squat more now than Weathersby did at his best... a senior he squatted 355. I'm feeling pretty strong today after reading that.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Jan 21, 2022 15:10:49 GMT -8
I love the spirited discussion.... Huge fan of Poyer and Tongue! Watched them both at all the home games. Having said that I wonder what we would be saying about Weathersby if it were not for the two incidents after OSU that stymied his NFL career. He was a possible first round for sure second round pick before being shot in the back.... was picked in the 4th round by the Bengals and then was in his car accident after one year in the league that ended his career. I feel like he was the Best OSU DB I have had the honor of watching. Maybe it was that he was also on winning teams but man that kid could do it all... excepted I don't remember him returning kicks or punts... so he could do it all on defense. Anyway, we all decide for ourselves who was 'better'. Fun conversations to have. Who is next to enter this discussion? For my money, Dennis Weathersby at Oregon State was better than Poyer or Tongue. I would have loved to watch him on Sundays, if he had not been shot.
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Post by zeroposter on Jan 21, 2022 17:52:23 GMT -8
Weathersby was the best lockdown corner at OSU. Zero doubt. His one limitation was hands of stone. Obviously, not a lot of teams targeted his guy, but he was so outstanding even with the reduced passes his way that his interception numbers would have been far greater if he didn’t have the stone hands.
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Post by Henry Skrimshander on Jan 25, 2022 10:46:35 GMT -8
Poyer named to the 2021 All-NFL team, voted on by the Professional Football Writers of America. He was also first-team All-Pro.
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Post by kersting13 on Jan 25, 2022 14:54:18 GMT -8
Poyer named to the 2021 All-NFL team, voted on by the Professional Football Writers of America. He was also first-team All-Pro. But didn't make the Pro Bowl this year, interestingly enough. That's ok I'd take All-Pro over that. All-pro teams are much more prestigious than pro bowl selection. At least ever since they added a fan-voting component to pro bowl selection. Pro-bowl selections are also determined after the 14th game of the season, so it's not even based on a full-season's body of work.
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