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Post by Judge Smails on Jan 14, 2022 20:07:14 GMT -8
In addtion to being a GOAT, Robb's son Cole is rumored to be the famous artist Banksy... I already said that in another post. Try to keep up.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Jan 16, 2022 22:43:48 GMT -8
Before doing an analysis, I will say the five primary reasons why a direct analysis of "senior" seasons between the two is unfair. First, Thomas was so stupid talented that he returned kicks his true freshman season. He was the top kick returner in the Pac-10 as a true freshman. Hass was redshirted. Hass in 2005 had five years, mostly under Riley and his very complex wide receiver route system. Thomas had four years in revolutionary (at the time) but now dumb 70s-style football under Kragthorpe. If they were equal in talent, you would expect Hass to destroy Thomas in stats. A fairer comparison would be of Thomas' true senior year to Hass' redshirt junior season or, better yet, Thomas' true junior season to Hass' redshirt sophomore season. Second, Thomas caught 10 passes for 147 yards and a touchdown in Boulder against Colorado. The Buffaloes started 7-2 (losses to the two Oklahoma schools, which were both finished in the top 15) in 1988 and were ranked as high as #19 before finishing 1-2 against Nebraska, Kansas State and BYU. Wilhelm indicated that "many" of Thomas' receptions were "hospital balls," where Wilhelm threw into traffic trusting Thomas to come down with the ball. Colorado won 28-21 in a game that was closer than the final score would indicate. Thomas subsequently missed the Fresno State game with a scratched eyeball. Thomas returned to play against Troy Aikman's UCLA in the Rose Bowl and the following three games. Thomas then missed most of the game against Wazzu with a concussion (one catch for -1 yards and one kickoff return for 17 yards before coming out early in the second quarter) and then, beat to crud, he returned kicks but otherwise served merely as a decoy on offense in the Civil War. In total, Thomas put up those numbers in about 8.25 games. Third, Oregon State played the hardest schedule in the country in 1988, because it did not play a 1-AA team and the Pac-10 was so strong top-to-bottom in 1988. Sagarin has Oregon State playing the 31st most-difficult schedule in the country in 2005. Fourth, the pace of play involved more than 7% plays in 2005 than in 1988. Over the course of a season, this accounted for almost an extra game's worth of statistics for a player playing in 2005, when compared to someone in 1988. Fifth, marquee receivers put up much gaudier numbers in 2005 rather than 1987-1988. In order to truly compare numbers, you would probably have to inflate certain statistics, like yards, by somewhere in the neighborhood of 35-40% in order to start approaching an apples-to-apples analysis. Analysis of the compared seasons:Big error in seastape's analysis:Erik Wilhelm had his only healthy season in 1988. He played in every game. His backup, Nick Schlitchte threw three incompletions, so it does not affect your analysis. Matt Moore only played in 10 games. You are not accounting for the statistics of the three other players, who threw the ball in 2005. Hass caught 33.7% of OSU's receptions and 47.0% of the receiving yards. Trying to make it more apples-to-apples:A lot of Oregon State's offense in 1988 was pass plays to running backs, either check-downs or designed screens. Nick Schlichte also caught one gimmick pass play. If we remove those plays, we get: Thomas caught 38.2% of OSU's receptions and 40.1% of the receiving yards. If we do the same for 2005, we get: Hass caught 40.4% of OSU's receptions and 52.7% of the receiving yards. If we remove the Fresno State (scratched eyeball) and Wazzu and Oregon games (1988-style concussion) that Thomas missed or was hobbled, we get: Thomas caught 47.2% of OSU's receptions and 47.1% of the receiving yards. Thomas had a higher percentage of touches than Hass in games that he played. He had fewer yards, largely because opposing teams did not have to worry about a Yvenson Bernard gouging them, if they played nickel or dime. Yards without touchdowns are rather meaningless. In 2005, Hass put up video game numbers, but he only scored six times. And six touchdowns is the same number of touchdowns that Thomas put up in 8.25 games. Pure numbers do not tell the whole story. I remain unconvinced. Final points:Finally, you analyze 1988 Oregon State and 2005 Oregon State, so I thought that I would. In 1988, Oregon State was 47.0:53.0 run:pass and they were called "Air Express." In 2005, Oregon State was 47.4:52.6 run:pass. If I round to the nearest whole number, the run:pass percentages are identical. That is, if you run 100 plays, you would expect 1988 and 2005 Oregon State to run the identical amount of run and pass plays. You have to get to 120 plays (approximately two games), in order to have the delta be statistically significant. Additionally, as mentioned above, there were more plays in 2005 than in 1988. So, in fact, there were 14 more pass plays in 2005 than in 1988. Just for a sake of completeness, there were 19 additional running plays in 2005. If three running plays had been pass plays in 2005 (say, there had been three fewer sacks), 2005 would have featured a higher percentage of pass plays than in 1988. I remain unconvinced. Also this horse seems pretty dead to me. You remain unconvinced. You really don't "get the love" for a Belitnekoff winner? "Hass was redshirted. Hass in 2005 had five years, mostly under Riley and his very complex wide receiver route system. Thomas had four years in revolutionary (at the time) but now dumb 70s-style football under Kragthorpe." --Hass spent two years under Erickson and then, in his first year under Riley and in a different system, caught for over 1000 yards. Exploded onto the scene, you might say. --Revolutionary 70s style offense? How could a 70s-style offense be revolutionary in the 80s? Yes, that was the point of the statement. Oregon State in 1988 was running an offense that was revolutionary in 1970. Oregon State in 2005 was running an offense that was revolutionary in 2005 and was only getting better."Second, Thomas caught 10 passes for 147 yards and a touchdown in Boulder against Colorado." --Thomas had a good game against Colorado in 1988, when Colorado was an 8-4 team and finished the season unranked. Good game for Thomas but not much of a point for you. Colorado's two corners were Deon Figures, who won the Thorpe and Tatum Trophies and was a first rounder, and Dave McCloughan, who was a third rounder. Tim James was an eighth round safety as well. Colorado lost twice in the regular season by a combined 10 points: by three on a missed field goal and by seven in Lincoln. Nebraska and Oklahoma both played in January bowl games. Oklahoma State had two first team All-Americans: Hart Lee Dykes and the much better Barry Sanders.
Dykes was first team All-American in 1988, largely because people ignored him to try and concentrate on Sanders. However, he only had five catches for 80-some yards against Colorado's secondary. Thomas caught 10 passes for 147 yards and a touchdown. Nobody put up Thomas' numbers on Colorado in 1988. Dykes, the "first team All-American" had an uneventful four-year career in New England.
Figures was ineligible in 1989, but James and McCloughan returned to lead Colorado to a #1 overall finish. The Buffaloes lost the Orange Bowl to Notre Dame, though, and the National Championship with it. Figures, James and McCloughan helped Colorado win the 1990 National Championship.
And Thomas missed the Fresno State the following week with a scratched eyeball. The dude made great players look mediocre."Thomas subsequently missed the Fresno State game with a scratched eyeball. Thomas returned to play against Troy Aikman's UCLA in the Rose Bowl and the following three games. Thomas then missed most of the game against Wazzu with a concussion (one catch for -1 yards and one kickoff return for 17 yards before coming out early in the second quarter) and then, beat to crud, he returned kicks but otherwise served merely as a decoy on offense in the Civil War. In total, Thomas put up those numbers in about 8.25 games." --Actually, Thomas put up those numbers in over 9.25 games, but I'll give you the oregon game because I bet he wouldn't have played with today's concussion protocols. Nevertheless, Thomas would still not have put up the gaudy numbers that Hass did. If Thomas only played 8.25 games, that means he missed 25% of the season. That also means that he should have played 1/3 more games than he did. Multiply his 763 yards x 1.33 and you get 1014 yards. And that's coming up with numbers that would mathematically assume that Thomas made -0- receiving yards against the slug-eaters. I don't know what Thomas' numbers actually were from that game. Thomas had zero catches for zero yards in the 1988 Civil War. A laser focus on yards is, once again, an incomplete analysis. If Thomas had caught one more touchdown pass, he would have bested Hass' touchdown total from 2005. Thomas' 10 touchdown performance in 1987 was better than anything that Hass ever put together."Third, Oregon State played the hardest schedule in the country in 1988, because it did not play a 1-AA team and the Pac-10 was so strong top-to-bottom in 1988. Sagarin has Oregon State playing the 31st most-difficult schedule in the country in 2005." -- Oregon State's strength of schedule in 1988 was fourth hardest in the Pac 10, not #1 in the country. You're looking at the sports reference page, which is garbage. I can't figure out what I was looking at. jhowell.net has Oregon State's SOS as #2 in the country behind USC. I think that Oregon State may have played a harder schedule than USC before the Rose Bowl, and the Rose Bowl put USC over the top. Massey has Oregon State at #5. LSU, Michigan, Notre Dame and USC are the others, which, once again, includes their four bowls. The Pac-10 was the highest-rated conference in pretty much every ranking. The Pac-10 went a combined 29-7 against all other conferences in 1988. The seven losses were to @ Colorado, @ Hawai'i (Oregon in the season finale), #4 Michigan (Rose Bowl), @ #10 Nebraska, #1 Notre Dame (twice, once in the Coliseum and once in South Bend) and @ #14 Oklahoma. "Fourth, the pace of play involved more than 7% plays in 2005 than in 1988. Over the course of a season, this accounted for almost an extra game's worth of statistics for a player playing in 2005, when compared to someone in 1988." --Actually, Oregon State had 445 pass plays and 392 run plays for a total of 837 plays in 1988. In 2005, OSU had 459 pass plays and 411 run plays for a total 870. One way to express that is that the 1988 team only ran 96.2% of the offensive plays that the 2005 team did. Another way is to say that the 2005 team ran 103.9% of the plays that the 1988 team did. Neither expression adds up to 7%. In terms of pass plays, the 1988 team ran 96.9% of the pass plays that the 2005 team did. "Fifth, marquee receivers put up much gaudier numbers in 2005 rather than 1987-1988. In order to truly compare numbers, you would probably have to inflate certain statistics, like yards, by somewhere in the neighborhood of 35-40% in order to start approaching an apples-to-apples analysis." --This is what happens when you pull numbers out of thin air. "35-40% in order to start approaching an apples-to-apples analysis"? How high should we go to complete the journey? 50-60%? Nowhere near, it turns out. The receiving yards leader in the country in 1988 was Jason Phillips of Houston with 1444 yards, only 88 yards behind Hass' 2005 numbers, when Hass was #1 in the nation. That works tout to a percentage of Phillips catching 94.3% of the yards Hass caught in 2005. Phillips would have been #2 in 2005. The #10 receiving yards leader in the nation in 1988 had 1039 yards while the #10 guy in 2005 had 1195, meaning that #10 guy in 1988 caught 86.9% of the #10 guy in 2005. There is a real difference when you get down to #10, but nowhere near the "35-40% to start approaching" stat that you made up out of nothing. Teams were running the run and shoot and also trying to emulate the 49ers by 1988 and receivers were putting up big numbers, even then. (The leader for 2021 had 1902 yards.) Houston just installed the run-and-shoot offense in 1987. Jason Phillips had 1,444 yards but in 12 games. It took Phillips 18 more receptions than Mike Hass to get to that number. Phillips led the NCAA in receptions in 1987, as well, with 99, nine more than Hass, but finished with 875 yards. Houston ran 580 pass plays in 1988, approximately 30.3% more pass plays than Robb Thomas' 1988 team and 26.4% more pass plays than Mike Hass' 2005 team. 30.3% is not 35 or 40%, but it gets close by itself.
Phillips was the other "first team All-American" in 1988. The NFL thought enough of him to draft him in the 10th Round, which means that he would not be drafted in today's draft. Phillips played six years in the NFL before moving on to play in the CFL, where he put up decent numbers.
I recycled this argument from an earlier discussion with a different poster, but I was comparing 1987 numbers to 2005 numbers, because they did not include Houston's run-and-shoot bloat. Thomas was a top 10 receiver in the NCAA in 1987 as a true junior. The passing numbers in 1988 were much closer to 2005 numbers than in 1987.
" Big error in seastape's analysis:Erik Wilhelm had his only healthy season in 1988. He played in every game. His backup, Nick Schlitchte threw three incompletions, so it does not affect your analysis. Matt Moore only played in 10 games. You are not accounting for the statistics of the three other players, who threw the ball in 2005. Hass caught 33.7% of OSU's receptions and 47.0% of the receiving yards." --I'll admit my error that Matt Moore did not play the full schedule in 2005 like Wilhelm did in 1988. That only makes my argument stronger as Hass had to play with Gunderson who had a lower completion percentage than Moore (52% to 59%) and a technically worse td/int ration (2/4 compared to 11/19). Hass still put up gaudy numbers regarding the percentage of receptions and yards that he made for OSU his senior year. Moore was better than Gunderson, for sure. Hass' numbers suffered but not much. "Trying to make it more apples-to-apples: A lot of Oregon State's offense in 1988 was pass plays to running backs, either check-downs or designed screens. Nick Schlichte also caught one gimmick pass play. If we remove those plays, we get: Thomas caught 38.2% of OSU's receptions and 40.1% of the receiving yards. If we do the same for 2005, we get: Hass caught 40.4% of OSU's receptions and 52.7% of the receiving yards." --Oregon State threw more to RBs in 1988, yes, but you don't get to just toss out the RB numbers to adjust Thomas' stats. Give me a break. "Thomas had a higher percentage of touches than Hass in games that he played. He had fewer yards, largely because opposing teams did not have to worry about a Yvenson Bernard gouging them, if they played nickel or dime." --No, 1988 opponents did not have Yvenson Bernard to worry about. But they did have to worry about Pat Chaffey, a back good enough to make the NFL and better backups in 1988. Another point that does nothing for your argument. "Nothing" is overstated. Pat Chaffey was great, but Yvenson Bernard had 165% of the carries that Chaffey did and Chaffey turned around and ate up 22% more receptions than Bernard. Plus Bernard had a better ypc than Chaffey. If 1988 Oregon State had 2005 Oregon State's line and offensive scheme........But Chaffey did not help Thomas nearly as much as Bernard helped Hass. "Finally, you analyze 1988 Oregon State and 2005 Oregon State, so I thought that I would. In 1988, Oregon State was 47.0:53.0 run:pass and they were called "Air Express." In 2005, Oregon State was 47.4:52.6 run:pass. If I round to the nearest whole number, the run:pass percentages are identical." -- That was my point when I essentially said that the two eras are very comparable, meaning Thomas had plenty of opportunity to rack up yards in 1988. Robb Thomas was an outstanding receiver, one of the best and one of my favorites in OSU history. And yes, he was one hell of an athlete. But not getting the love for Hass...that's just crazy talk. Just thought I'd grind the dead horse into glue. Comments in red above. Yards! The scheme and personnel were better in 2005 than in 1988, which helped Hass put up tons of yards. The All-American voters ate up yards, too. And I disagree with them, as well. Yards are informative but not determinative IMO. Robb Thomas graded out higher at the Combine, closer to Cooper Kupp numbers than Mike Hass numbers. I believe Thomas' shuttle time is still top 10 all-time. The fact that Thomas played on a worse team should not be held against him. I feel like there are probably arguments that would probably sway me. I just have not heard them yet.
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Post by TheGlove on Jan 16, 2022 23:39:19 GMT -8
0 catches for 0 yards in the Civil War. Sad.
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Post by rgeorge on Jan 16, 2022 23:45:54 GMT -8
Threads have been shuttered for much less nonsensical gibberish than what's been posted here.
But, the extent one party has taken it is way over the top. The stylings/profile of a self absorbed, eristic type, bordering on an argumentative personality disorder.
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Post by beaver55to7 on Jan 17, 2022 6:45:32 GMT -8
Threads have been shuttered for much less nonsensical gibberish than what's been posted here. But, the extent one party has taken it is way over the top. The stylings/profile of a self absorbed, eristic type, bordering on an argumentative personality disorder. Yeah, why can't we get back to more solid off season topics....like batting helmets. Accusations of argumentative personality disorder coming from baseballlllls, bwahahahahahahahhahaha
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Post by Henry Skrimshander on Jan 17, 2022 10:16:27 GMT -8
0 catches for 0 yards in the Civil War. Sad. IIRC, Thomas suffered a concussion at WSU the week before and did not play in the 1988 Civil War game.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Jan 18, 2022 12:36:16 GMT -8
0 catches for 0 yards in the Civil War. Sad. IIRC, Thomas suffered a concussion at WSU the week before and did not play in the 1988 Civil War game. Thomas did play but not much. They used him as a decoy, because the Ducks would double him, which opened up more running lanes and the underneath routes. Thomas, as an Oregon kid, wanted to play in his Senior Year Civil War. And he was a part of the first win the Civil War since 1974. Thomas only touched the ball on special teams, though. Oregon State's staff knew that he was nowhere near to a position to try and make a contested catch over the middle. The 4-6-1 record in 1988 was Oregon State's best between 1971 and 1998. Oregon State was in shambles, and Thomas was one of the bright spots. It helped that Wilhelm was healthy in 1988, as opposed to missing parts of 10 games in 1986 or parts of 9 games in 1987.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Jan 18, 2022 12:39:07 GMT -8
Threads have been shuttered for much less nonsensical gibberish than what's been posted here. But, the extent one party has taken it is way over the top. The stylings/profile of a self absorbed, eristic type, bordering on an argumentative personality disorder. Thank you for your input, Sigmund Freud. Now, tell us more about skull caps, and what makes Craig Robinson such a visionary head coach.
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Post by Judge Smails on Jan 18, 2022 13:31:57 GMT -8
IIRC, Thomas suffered a concussion at WSU the week before and did not play in the 1988 Civil War game. Thomas did play but not much. They used him as a decoy, because the Ducks would double him, which opened up more running lanes and the underneath routes. Thomas, as an Oregon kid, wanted to play in his Senior Year Civil War. And he was a part of the first win the Civil War since 1974. Thomas only touched the ball on special teams, though. Oregon State's staff knew that he was nowhere near to a position to try and make a contested catch over the middle. The 4-6-1 record in 1988 was Oregon State's best between 1971 and 1998. Oregon State was in shambles, and Thomas was one of the bright spots. It helped that Wilhelm was healthy in 1988, as opposed to missing parts of 10 games in 1986 or parts of 9 games in 1987. Kragthorpe was the Pac 10 coach of the year that year and Wilhelm set the all time passing mark in the Pac 10. There was actually hope after '88, but it was short-lived. I think if Kragthorpe had some more resources and had a little bit better DC, he might have gotten us over the hump. It also didn't help that QB Craig Whelihan transferred to Pacific and ending up doing reasonably well in the NFL.
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Post by kersting13 on Jan 18, 2022 14:14:24 GMT -8
Thomas did play but not much. They used him as a decoy, because the Ducks would double him, which opened up more running lanes and the underneath routes. Thomas, as an Oregon kid, wanted to play in his Senior Year Civil War. And he was a part of the first win the Civil War since 1974. Thomas only touched the ball on special teams, though. Oregon State's staff knew that he was nowhere near to a position to try and make a contested catch over the middle. The 4-6-1 record in 1988 was Oregon State's best between 1971 and 1998. Oregon State was in shambles, and Thomas was one of the bright spots. It helped that Wilhelm was healthy in 1988, as opposed to missing parts of 10 games in 1986 or parts of 9 games in 1987. Kragthorpe was the Pac 10 coach of the year that year and Wilhelm set the all time passing mark in the Pac 10. There was actually hope after '88, but it was short-lived. I think if Kragthorpe had some more resources and had a little bit better DC, he might have gotten us over the hump. It also didn't help that QB Craig Whelihan transferred to Pacific and ending up doing reasonably well in the NFL. It wasn't short-lived for that era of Beaver football. The optimism certainly lasted through November 3, 1989 when the Beavers were still 4-3-1 through the first 8 games of the year, with 3-1-1 of that in Pac-10 games. Until the crazy stolen game at Hawaii, the Beavers were about to have their best season during the streak in 1989, and the 88-89 seasons were the best 2 year stint during the streak until Riley showed up. I'd say the optimism lasted until the Montana loss in 1990. Or maybe the "stolen playboy scandal" was the end of that optimism? Can't recall the timing of that one. On the field, it was Montana.
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Post by Judge Smails on Jan 18, 2022 14:23:01 GMT -8
Kragthorpe was the Pac 10 coach of the year that year and Wilhelm set the all time passing mark in the Pac 10. There was actually hope after '88, but it was short-lived. I think if Kragthorpe had some more resources and had a little bit better DC, he might have gotten us over the hump. It also didn't help that QB Craig Whelihan transferred to Pacific and ending up doing reasonably well in the NFL. It wasn't short-lived for that era of Beaver football. The optimism certainly lasted through November 3, 1989 when the Beavers were still 4-3-1 through the first 8 games of the year, with 3-1-1 of that in Pac-10 games. Until the crazy stolen game at Hawaii, the Beavers were about to have their best season during the streak in 1989, and the 88-89 seasons were the best 2 year stint during the streak until Riley showed up. I'd say the optimism lasted until the Montana loss in 1990. Or maybe the "stolen playboy scandal" was the end of that optimism? Can't recall the timing of that one. On the field, it was Montana. I still consider 2 years "short-lived", but he was actually coach of the year in 1989 and then fired after the 1990 season. My mistake on saying he won that award in 1988.
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Post by kersting13 on Jan 18, 2022 14:34:37 GMT -8
It wasn't short-lived for that era of Beaver football. The optimism certainly lasted through November 3, 1989 when the Beavers were still 4-3-1 through the first 8 games of the year, with 3-1-1 of that in Pac-10 games. Until the crazy stolen game at Hawaii, the Beavers were about to have their best season during the streak in 1989, and the 88-89 seasons were the best 2 year stint during the streak until Riley showed up. I'd say the optimism lasted until the Montana loss in 1990. Or maybe the "stolen playboy scandal" was the end of that optimism? Can't recall the timing of that one. On the field, it was Montana. I still consider 2 years "short-lived", but he was actually coach of the year in 1989 and then fired after the 1990 season. My mistake on saying he won that award in 1988. I mean, 1989 was the zenith of the streak era until CW 1998. As a frosh who rushed the field and helped take down the goal posts after the UCLA game gave us our first 3-win Pac-10 season in forever, and a winning record after 8 games, we thought we might actually have a chance to be a mediocre football team.
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Post by Judge Smails on Jan 18, 2022 14:36:22 GMT -8
I still consider 2 years "short-lived", but he was actually coach of the year in 1989 and then fired after the 1990 season. My mistake on saying he won that award in 1988. I mean, 1989 was the zenith of the streak era until CW 1998. As a frosh who rushed the field and helped take down the goal posts after the UCLA game gave us our first 3-win Pac-10 season in forever, and a winning record after 8 games, we thought we might actually have a chance to be a mediocre football team. I may or may not still have a piece of that goalpost. Is the statute of limitations up?
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Post by rgeorge on Jan 18, 2022 14:59:18 GMT -8
Threads have been shuttered for much less nonsensical gibberish than what's been posted here. But, the extent one party has taken it is way over the top. The stylings/profile of a self absorbed, eristic type, bordering on an argumentative personality disorder. Thank you for your input, Sigmund Freud. Now, tell us more about skull caps, and what makes Craig Robinson such a visionary head coach. Ha... no matter what others may post I'm sure you can find a website to accentuate or debate depending on what fits your thinking. Then do your typical ncut/paste/paraphrase for another few pages.
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Jan 18, 2022 16:50:45 GMT -8
I mean, 1989 was the zenith of the streak era until CW 1998. As a frosh who rushed the field and helped take down the goal posts after the UCLA game gave us our first 3-win Pac-10 season in forever, and a winning record after 8 games, we thought we might actually have a chance to be a mediocre football team. I may or may not still have a piece of that goalpost. Is the statute of limitations up? Is there a statute of limitations on possession of known "stolen" property? Maybe it depends if felonies were involved? Let's say a mob of people broke into a museum and one ended up with a "priceless" piece of art, or say an original copy of the US Declaration of Independence, and was found to have had it 35 years later. Seems to me there might be some legal peril there. I kind of doubt anything might happen in regards to legal peril if they ended up with the doorknob of the bathroom instead of something deemed important.
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