|
Post by Henry Skrimshander on Jan 13, 2022 10:30:14 GMT -8
Up next: Steve Lyons over Cadyn Grenier because Lyons was an MLB utility player for eight or nine years.
|
|
|
Post by Judge Smails on Jan 13, 2022 10:37:28 GMT -8
Up next: Steve Lyons over Cadyn Grenier because Lyons was an MLB utility player for eight or nine years. I thought it was because Cadyn never pulled his pants down in the middle of a game.
|
|
|
Post by ochobeavo on Jan 13, 2022 10:48:34 GMT -8
Up next: Steve Lyons over Cadyn Grenier because Lyons was an MLB utility player for eight or nine years. Andrew Susac > Adley Rutschman. Strong mustache, WS ring, 7 career MLB homers. Adley = ZERO.
|
|
|
Post by ag87 on Jan 13, 2022 13:41:05 GMT -8
It's so weird. But - hear me out - when you think about it, if you take away his 20 touchdowns, Mike Hass NEVER SCORED. That was my other point in my post that I forgot to include. Robb Thomas scored two fewer touchdowns in five fewer games. Two fewer touchdowns in 84 fewer touches than Mike Hass. If you eliminate the bowl games (Mike Hass scored touchdown #2 against New Mexico in the 2003 Las Vegas Bowl), you get down to one fewer touchdown in three fewer games. One fewer touchdowns in 73 fewer touches than Mike Hass. Classic wilky arguement: if you eliminate the 3000 times Roberto Clemente hit safely, he had ZERO hits. Therefore he was not a good hitter.
|
|
|
Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Jan 13, 2022 14:16:22 GMT -8
That was my other point in my post that I forgot to include. Robb Thomas scored two fewer touchdowns in five fewer games. Two fewer touchdowns in 84 fewer touches than Mike Hass. If you eliminate the bowl games (Mike Hass scored touchdown #2 against New Mexico in the 2003 Las Vegas Bowl), you get down to one fewer touchdown in three fewer games. One fewer touchdowns in 73 fewer touches than Mike Hass. Classic wilky arguement: if you eliminate the 3000 times Roberto Clemente hit safely, he had ZERO hits. Therefore he was not a good hitter. I am trying to make it closer to apples-to-apples to make the comparison fair. Mike Hass played in two bowl games: the 2003 Las Vegas Bowl and the 2004 Insight Bowl. Robb Thomas did not, because he played for Oregon State in the '80s. Including them would be an unfair comparison. There are many reasons why comparing 2005 stats to 1988 stats causes wildly-skewed results.
|
|
|
Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Jan 13, 2022 14:32:02 GMT -8
My long and the short of it is that Robb Thomas was faster, a better jumper, was more aerobatic and was generally more athletic. All of that made him more versatile. He was a kick and punt returner and he held on kicks. He played everywhere, because there was almost no one else on those teams that you could count on to do that stuff. Mike Hass had hands and concentration and was taught route-running by one of the best route-running staffs that Oregon State has ever seen. He was better coached and surrounded with a team that did not require him to do almost literally everything at all times. If I put Robb Thomas on the 2003-2005 teams, I have little doubt that he would put up better numbers than Hass, or that teams would have had to scheme harder to make sure that Thomas did not burn them. If I put Hass on the 1986-1988 teams, I have little doubt that we don't know who the heck Hass is. And the end all and be all of which one is better is that Thomas played a decade in the NFL. And there are still NFL fans that talk about the heart that he played with. You could play with Robb Thomas on Tecmo Super Bowl and John Madden Football '92. Robb Thomas was probably the best offensive skill position player that played at Oregon State between Bob Grim back in the '60s and T.J. in the '90s. Both Chad and T.J. were playing in the NFL before, during and after Hass' four-year NFL career or his five-year college career, for that matter. I do not get all of the Hass love. He was coached up to the hilt and was a surefire target for Anderson and Moore, while he was in Corvallis. Sure. Put up monster numbers. Sure. Hass is a great story. The fact that he was a walk-on. Great story. But I just cannot get around the fact that he was slow, smallish and not very athletic. Robb Thomas once almost beat Gustavo Envela Mahua (Gus Envela, Jr.) in the 100m, and Envela went on to race at four separate Olympics. I do not know. Maybe I am missing something. But in my mind, Mike Hass was great. But Robb Thomas was greater. If the HOF, the Belitnikoff Award and nearly 4000 career receiving yards (almost double that of Robb Thomas) aren't enough for you to "get all of the Hass love," you can consider that he did it with two QB's. The second was Matt Moore's first year, which was decent but definitely had its rough spots. Moore threw 11 tds to 19 picks and Hass caught a lot of his errant throws. Hass was not a burner, but he was fast enough and he had the moves to get open. And the jump balls have to be mentioned: If the ball was in the air near Hass, he was going to come down with it. Speed alone does not a great receiver make. There have been a lot of great receivers, at all levels, who were not burners, including...well, you know...Fred Belitnikoff. But also Larry Fitzgerald (4.63) and Chris Carter (4.63). From what I have seen, Hass ran between a 4.61 - 4.63 40 at the combine. To say he was not very athletic is an error. The fastest? No. Jumped the highest? No. But he had great agility and that made him quick. He was a tough receiver to cover, no matter his speed, and he caught everything thrown his way. Hass was great at an early time; his first of three 1000 yard seasons came his sophomore year (23.0 ypc!, #4 in the nation) when he was the second receiver behind James Newson. Get that? OSU had two 1000 yard receivers that year and Hass was one...as a sophomore. By comparison, Robb Thomas had less than 400 yards his sophomore year and peaked at 891 yards his junior year. He took a small step back as a senior with 763 yards, which was less than half of Hass' senior year at 1532 yards. You can argue that the two played in different eras, but Wilhelm broke the Pac 10 career passing record his senior year in 1988 and Oregon State had adopted the "Air Express" moniker to describe its pass-first football team. They threw quite a bit more than Hass' 2005 team. Wilhelm's stats in 1988 (both Thomas' and Wilhelm's senior years): 275/442 att/comp, 62.2%, 2896 yds, 6.6 yds/att, 18 tds/9 ints. Moore's stats in 2005 (Hass's senior and Moore's first year): 211/355 att/comp, 59.4%, 2711 yds, 7.6 yds/att, 11 tds/19 ints. In Thomas' and Hass' senior years: Thomas' senior year: 58 receptions, 763 yards, 13.2 ypc, 6 tds. Thomas caught 21.1% of OSU's receptions and 26.3% of the receiving yards. Hass' senior year: 90 receptions (#4 in the nation), 1532 yds (#1 in the nation), 17.0 ypc, 6 tds. Hass caught 42.7% of OSU's receptions and a huge 56.5% of the receiving yards. OSU was mediocre both in 1988 (4-6-1) and 2005 (5-6). Hass was by far the brightest star when you compare the two years; Moore was lucky to have him on the field. Hass established himself as one of the greatest college receivers ever and earned that Belitnikoff Award with a phenomenal senior year to cap a phenomenal college football career. Before doing an analysis, I will say the five primary reasons why a direct analysis of "senior" seasons between the two is unfair. First, Thomas was so stupid talented that he returned kicks his true freshman season. He was the top kick returner in the Pac-10 as a true freshman. Hass was redshirted. Hass in 2005 had five years, mostly under Riley and his very complex wide receiver route system. Thomas had four years in revolutionary (at the time) but now dumb 70s-style football under Kragthorpe. If they were equal in talent, you would expect Hass to destroy Thomas in stats. A fairer comparison would be of Thomas' true senior year to Hass' redshirt junior season or, better yet, Thomas' true junior season to Hass' redshirt sophomore season. Second, Thomas caught 10 passes for 147 yards and a touchdown in Boulder against Colorado. The Buffaloes started 7-2 (losses to the two Oklahoma schools, which were both finished in the top 15) in 1988 and were ranked as high as #19 before finishing 1-2 against Nebraska, Kansas State and BYU. Wilhelm indicated that "many" of Thomas' receptions were "hospital balls," where Wilhelm threw into traffic trusting Thomas to come down with the ball. Colorado won 28-21 in a game that was closer than the final score would indicate. Thomas subsequently missed the Fresno State game with a scratched eyeball. Thomas returned to play against Troy Aikman's UCLA in the Rose Bowl and the following three games. Thomas then missed most of the game against Wazzu with a concussion (one catch for -1 yards and one kickoff return for 17 yards before coming out early in the second quarter) and then, beat to crud, he returned kicks but otherwise served merely as a decoy on offense in the Civil War. In total, Thomas put up those numbers in about 8.25 games. Third, Oregon State played the hardest schedule in the country in 1988, because it did not play a 1-AA team and the Pac-10 was so strong top-to-bottom in 1988. Sagarin has Oregon State playing the 31st most-difficult schedule in the country in 2005. Fourth, the pace of play involved more than 7% plays in 2005 than in 1988. Over the course of a season, this accounted for almost an extra game's worth of statistics for a player playing in 2005, when compared to someone in 1988. Fifth, marquee receivers put up much gaudier numbers in 2005 rather than 1987-1988. In order to truly compare numbers, you would probably have to inflate certain statistics, like yards, by somewhere in the neighborhood of 35-40% in order to start approaching an apples-to-apples analysis. Analysis of the compared seasons:Big error in seastape's analysis:Erik Wilhelm had his only healthy season in 1988. He played in every game. His backup, Nick Schlitchte threw three incompletions, so it does not affect your analysis. Matt Moore only played in 10 games. You are not accounting for the statistics of the three other players, who threw the ball in 2005. Hass caught 33.7% of OSU's receptions and 47.0% of the receiving yards. Trying to make it more apples-to-apples:A lot of Oregon State's offense in 1988 was pass plays to running backs, either check-downs or designed screens. Nick Schlichte also caught one gimmick pass play. If we remove those plays, we get: Thomas caught 38.2% of OSU's receptions and 40.1% of the receiving yards. If we do the same for 2005, we get: Hass caught 40.4% of OSU's receptions and 52.7% of the receiving yards. If we remove the Fresno State (scratched eyeball) and Wazzu and Oregon games (1988-style concussion) that Thomas missed or was hobbled, we get: Thomas caught 47.2% of OSU's receptions and 47.1% of the receiving yards. Thomas had a higher percentage of touches than Hass in games that he played. He had fewer yards, largely because opposing teams did not have to worry about a Yvenson Bernard gouging them, if they played nickel or dime. Yards without touchdowns are rather meaningless. In 2005, Hass put up video game numbers, but he only scored six times. And six touchdowns is the same number of touchdowns that Thomas put up in 8.25 games. Pure numbers do not tell the whole story. I remain unconvinced. Final points:Finally, you analyze 1988 Oregon State and 2005 Oregon State, so I thought that I would. In 1988, Oregon State was 47.0:53.0 run:pass and they were called "Air Express." In 2005, Oregon State was 47.4:52.6 run:pass. If I round to the nearest whole number, the run:pass percentages are identical. That is, if you run 100 plays, you would expect 1988 and 2005 Oregon State to run the identical amount of run and pass plays. You have to get to 120 plays (approximately two games), in order to have the delta be statistically significant. Additionally, as mentioned above, there were more plays in 2005 than in 1988. So, in fact, there were 14 more pass plays in 2005 than in 1988. Just for a sake of completeness, there were 19 additional running plays in 2005. If three running plays had been pass plays in 2005 (say, there had been three fewer sacks), 2005 would have featured a higher percentage of pass plays than in 1988. I remain unconvinced. Also this horse seems pretty dead to me.
|
|
|
Post by Judge Smails on Jan 13, 2022 14:37:24 GMT -8
If the HOF, the Belitnikoff Award and nearly 4000 career receiving yards (almost double that of Robb Thomas) aren't enough for you to "get all of the Hass love," you can consider that he did it with two QB's. The second was Matt Moore's first year, which was decent but definitely had its rough spots. Moore threw 11 tds to 19 picks and Hass caught a lot of his errant throws. Hass was not a burner, but he was fast enough and he had the moves to get open. And the jump balls have to be mentioned: If the ball was in the air near Hass, he was going to come down with it. Speed alone does not a great receiver make. There have been a lot of great receivers, at all levels, who were not burners, including...well, you know...Fred Belitnikoff. But also Larry Fitzgerald (4.63) and Chris Carter (4.63). From what I have seen, Hass ran between a 4.61 - 4.63 40 at the combine. To say he was not very athletic is an error. The fastest? No. Jumped the highest? No. But he had great agility and that made him quick. He was a tough receiver to cover, no matter his speed, and he caught everything thrown his way. Hass was great at an early time; his first of three 1000 yard seasons came his sophomore year (23.0 ypc!, #4 in the nation) when he was the second receiver behind James Newson. Get that? OSU had two 1000 yard receivers that year and Hass was one...as a sophomore. By comparison, Robb Thomas had less than 400 yards his sophomore year and peaked at 891 yards his junior year. He took a small step back as a senior with 763 yards, which was less than half of Hass' senior year at 1532 yards. You can argue that the two played in different eras, but Wilhelm broke the Pac 10 career passing record his senior year in 1988 and Oregon State had adopted the "Air Express" moniker to describe its pass-first football team. They threw quite a bit more than Hass' 2005 team. Wilhelm's stats in 1988 (both Thomas' and Wilhelm's senior years): 275/442 att/comp, 62.2%, 2896 yds, 6.6 yds/att, 18 tds/9 ints. Moore's stats in 2005 (Hass's senior and Moore's first year): 211/355 att/comp, 59.4%, 2711 yds, 7.6 yds/att, 11 tds/19 ints. In Thomas' and Hass' senior years: Thomas' senior year: 58 receptions, 763 yards, 13.2 ypc, 6 tds. Thomas caught 21.1% of OSU's receptions and 26.3% of the receiving yards. Hass' senior year: 90 receptions (#4 in the nation), 1532 yds (#1 in the nation), 17.0 ypc, 6 tds. Hass caught 42.7% of OSU's receptions and a huge 56.5% of the receiving yards. OSU was mediocre both in 1988 (4-6-1) and 2005 (5-6). Hass was by far the brightest star when you compare the two years; Moore was lucky to have him on the field. Hass established himself as one of the greatest college receivers ever and earned that Belitnikoff Award with a phenomenal senior year to cap a phenomenal college football career. Before doing an analysis, I will say the five primary reasons why a direct analysis of "senior" seasons between the two is unfair. First, Thomas was so stupid talented that he returned kicks his true freshman season. He was the top kick returner in the Pac-10 as a true freshman. Hass was redshirted. Hass in 2005 had five years, mostly under Riley and his very complex wide receiver route system. Thomas had four years in revolutionary (at the time) but now dumb 70s-style football under Kragthorpe. If they were equal in talent, you would expect them to be unequal in stats. A direct comparison would be of Thomas' true senior year to Hass' redshirt sophomore season. Second, Thomas caught 10 passes for 147 yards and a touchdown in Boulder against Colorado. The Buffaloes started 7-2 (losses to the two Oklahoma schools, which were both finished in the top 15) in 1988 and were ranked as high as #19 before finishing 1-2 against Nebraska, Kansas State and BYU. Wilhelm indicated that "many" of Thomas' receptions were "hospital balls," where Wilhelm threw into traffic trusting Thomas to come down with the ball. Colorado won 28-21 in a game that was closer than the final score would indicate. Thomas subsequently missed the Fresno State game with a scratched eyeball. Thomas returned to play against Troy Aikman's UCLA in the Rose Bowl and the following three games. Thomas then missed most of the game against Wazzu with a concussion (one catch for -1 yards and one kickoff return for 17 yards before coming out early in the second quarter) and then, beat to crud, he returned kicks but otherwise served merely as a decoy on offense in the Civil War. In total, Thomas put up those numbers in about 8.25 games. Third, Oregon State played the hardest schedule in the country in 1988, because it did not play a 1-AA team and the Pac-10 was so strong top-to-bottom in 1988. Sagarin has Oregon State playing the 31st most-difficult schedule in the country in 2005. Fourth, the pace of play involved more than 7% plays in 2005 than in 1988. Over the course of a season, this accounted for almost an extra game's worth of statistics for a player playing in 2005, when comparing someone in 1988. Fifth, marquee receivers put up much gaudier numbers in 2005 rather than 1987-1988. In order to truly compare numbers, you would probably have to inflate certain statistics, like yards, by somewhere in the neighborhood of 35-40% in order to start having an apples-to-apples analysis. Analysis of the compared seasons:Big error in seastape's analysis:Erik Wilhelm had his only healthy season in 1988. He played in every game. His backup, Nick Schlitchte threw three incompletions, so it does not affect your analysis. Matt Moore only played in 10 games. You are not accounting for the statistics of the three other players, who threw the ball in 2005. Hass caught 33.7% of OSU's receptions and 47.0% of the receiving yards. Trying to make it more apples-to-apples:A lot of Oregon State's offense in 1988 was pass plays to running backs, either check-downs or designed screens. Nick Schlichte also caught one gimmick pass play. If we remove those plays, we get: Thomas caught 38.2% of OSU's receptions and 40.1% of the receiving yards. If we do the same for 2005, we get: Hass caught 40.4% of OSU's receptions and 52.7% of the receiving yards. If we remove the Fresno State (scratched eyeball) and Wazzu and Oregon games (1988-style concussion) that Thomas missed or was hobbled, we get: Thomas caught 47.2% of OSU's receptions and 47.1% of the receiving yards. Final points:Finally, you analyze 1988 Oregon State and 2005 Oregon State, so I thought that I would. In 1988, Oregon State was 47.0:53.0 run:pass and they were called "Air Express." In 2005, Oregon State was 47.4:52.6 run:pass. If I round to the nearest whole number, the run:pass percentages are identical. That is, if you run 100 plays, you would expect 1988 and 2005 Oregon State to run the identical amount of run and pass plays. You have to get to 120 plays (approximately two games), in order to have that number be statistically significant. Additionally, as mentioned above, there were more plays in 2005 than in 1988. So, in fact, there were 14 more pass plays in 2005 than in 1988. Just for a sake of completeness, there were 19 additional running plays in 2005. If three running plays had been pass plays in 2005 (say, there had been three fewer sacks), 2005 would have featured a higher percentage of pass plays than in 1988. I remain unconvinced, and this horse seems pretty dead to me. I think you've eaten the dead horse.
|
|
|
Post by nabeav on Jan 13, 2022 14:56:07 GMT -8
I remain convinced that you will find a way to downplay and manipulate any data to say what you want it to.
"If you account for games Thomas played dinged up and ignore games Hass may have been dinged up, but also give Thomas a pace of play bonus and do not account for the fact that Hass very likely had his TD opportunities in the red zone limited by all conference Tight Ends (Euhus, Newton) and running backs (Jackson, Bernard) their stats are pretty similar!"
|
|
|
Post by seastape on Jan 13, 2022 19:14:16 GMT -8
If the HOF, the Belitnikoff Award and nearly 4000 career receiving yards (almost double that of Robb Thomas) aren't enough for you to "get all of the Hass love," you can consider that he did it with two QB's. The second was Matt Moore's first year, which was decent but definitely had its rough spots. Moore threw 11 tds to 19 picks and Hass caught a lot of his errant throws. Hass was not a burner, but he was fast enough and he had the moves to get open. And the jump balls have to be mentioned: If the ball was in the air near Hass, he was going to come down with it. Speed alone does not a great receiver make. There have been a lot of great receivers, at all levels, who were not burners, including...well, you know...Fred Belitnikoff. But also Larry Fitzgerald (4.63) and Chris Carter (4.63). From what I have seen, Hass ran between a 4.61 - 4.63 40 at the combine. To say he was not very athletic is an error. The fastest? No. Jumped the highest? No. But he had great agility and that made him quick. He was a tough receiver to cover, no matter his speed, and he caught everything thrown his way. Hass was great at an early time; his first of three 1000 yard seasons came his sophomore year (23.0 ypc!, #4 in the nation) when he was the second receiver behind James Newson. Get that? OSU had two 1000 yard receivers that year and Hass was one...as a sophomore. By comparison, Robb Thomas had less than 400 yards his sophomore year and peaked at 891 yards his junior year. He took a small step back as a senior with 763 yards, which was less than half of Hass' senior year at 1532 yards. You can argue that the two played in different eras, but Wilhelm broke the Pac 10 career passing record his senior year in 1988 and Oregon State had adopted the "Air Express" moniker to describe its pass-first football team. They threw quite a bit more than Hass' 2005 team. Wilhelm's stats in 1988 (both Thomas' and Wilhelm's senior years): 275/442 att/comp, 62.2%, 2896 yds, 6.6 yds/att, 18 tds/9 ints. Moore's stats in 2005 (Hass's senior and Moore's first year): 211/355 att/comp, 59.4%, 2711 yds, 7.6 yds/att, 11 tds/19 ints. In Thomas' and Hass' senior years: Thomas' senior year: 58 receptions, 763 yards, 13.2 ypc, 6 tds. Thomas caught 21.1% of OSU's receptions and 26.3% of the receiving yards. Hass' senior year: 90 receptions (#4 in the nation), 1532 yds (#1 in the nation), 17.0 ypc, 6 tds. Hass caught 42.7% of OSU's receptions and a huge 56.5% of the receiving yards. OSU was mediocre both in 1988 (4-6-1) and 2005 (5-6). Hass was by far the brightest star when you compare the two years; Moore was lucky to have him on the field. Hass established himself as one of the greatest college receivers ever and earned that Belitnikoff Award with a phenomenal senior year to cap a phenomenal college football career. Before doing an analysis, I will say the five primary reasons why a direct analysis of "senior" seasons between the two is unfair. First, Thomas was so stupid talented that he returned kicks his true freshman season. He was the top kick returner in the Pac-10 as a true freshman. Hass was redshirted. Hass in 2005 had five years, mostly under Riley and his very complex wide receiver route system. Thomas had four years in revolutionary (at the time) but now dumb 70s-style football under Kragthorpe. If they were equal in talent, you would expect Hass to destroy Thomas in stats. A fairer comparison would be of Thomas' true senior year to Hass' redshirt junior season or, better yet, Thomas' true junior season to Hass' redshirt sophomore season. Second, Thomas caught 10 passes for 147 yards and a touchdown in Boulder against Colorado. The Buffaloes started 7-2 (losses to the two Oklahoma schools, which were both finished in the top 15) in 1988 and were ranked as high as #19 before finishing 1-2 against Nebraska, Kansas State and BYU. Wilhelm indicated that "many" of Thomas' receptions were "hospital balls," where Wilhelm threw into traffic trusting Thomas to come down with the ball. Colorado won 28-21 in a game that was closer than the final score would indicate. Thomas subsequently missed the Fresno State game with a scratched eyeball. Thomas returned to play against Troy Aikman's UCLA in the Rose Bowl and the following three games. Thomas then missed most of the game against Wazzu with a concussion (one catch for -1 yards and one kickoff return for 17 yards before coming out early in the second quarter) and then, beat to crud, he returned kicks but otherwise served merely as a decoy on offense in the Civil War. In total, Thomas put up those numbers in about 8.25 games. Third, Oregon State played the hardest schedule in the country in 1988, because it did not play a 1-AA team and the Pac-10 was so strong top-to-bottom in 1988. Sagarin has Oregon State playing the 31st most-difficult schedule in the country in 2005. Fourth, the pace of play involved more than 7% plays in 2005 than in 1988. Over the course of a season, this accounted for almost an extra game's worth of statistics for a player playing in 2005, when compared to someone in 1988. Fifth, marquee receivers put up much gaudier numbers in 2005 rather than 1987-1988. In order to truly compare numbers, you would probably have to inflate certain statistics, like yards, by somewhere in the neighborhood of 35-40% in order to start approaching an apples-to-apples analysis. Analysis of the compared seasons:Big error in seastape's analysis:Erik Wilhelm had his only healthy season in 1988. He played in every game. His backup, Nick Schlitchte threw three incompletions, so it does not affect your analysis. Matt Moore only played in 10 games. You are not accounting for the statistics of the three other players, who threw the ball in 2005. Hass caught 33.7% of OSU's receptions and 47.0% of the receiving yards. Trying to make it more apples-to-apples:A lot of Oregon State's offense in 1988 was pass plays to running backs, either check-downs or designed screens. Nick Schlichte also caught one gimmick pass play. If we remove those plays, we get: Thomas caught 38.2% of OSU's receptions and 40.1% of the receiving yards. If we do the same for 2005, we get: Hass caught 40.4% of OSU's receptions and 52.7% of the receiving yards. If we remove the Fresno State (scratched eyeball) and Wazzu and Oregon games (1988-style concussion) that Thomas missed or was hobbled, we get: Thomas caught 47.2% of OSU's receptions and 47.1% of the receiving yards. Thomas had a higher percentage of touches than Hass in games that he played. He had fewer yards, largely because opposing teams did not have to worry about a Yvenson Bernard gouging them, if they played nickel or dime. Yards without touchdowns are rather meaningless. In 2005, Hass put up video game numbers, but he only scored six times. And six touchdowns is the same number of touchdowns that Thomas put up in 8.25 games. Pure numbers do not tell the whole story. I remain unconvinced. Final points:Finally, you analyze 1988 Oregon State and 2005 Oregon State, so I thought that I would. In 1988, Oregon State was 47.0:53.0 run:pass and they were called "Air Express." In 2005, Oregon State was 47.4:52.6 run:pass. If I round to the nearest whole number, the run:pass percentages are identical. That is, if you run 100 plays, you would expect 1988 and 2005 Oregon State to run the identical amount of run and pass plays. You have to get to 120 plays (approximately two games), in order to have the delta be statistically significant. Additionally, as mentioned above, there were more plays in 2005 than in 1988. So, in fact, there were 14 more pass plays in 2005 than in 1988. Just for a sake of completeness, there were 19 additional running plays in 2005. If three running plays had been pass plays in 2005 (say, there had been three fewer sacks), 2005 would have featured a higher percentage of pass plays than in 1988. I remain unconvinced. Also this horse seems pretty dead to me. You remain unconvinced. You really don't "get the love" for a Belitnekoff winner? "Hass was redshirted. Hass in 2005 had five years, mostly under Riley and his very complex wide receiver route system. Thomas had four years in revolutionary (at the time) but now dumb 70s-style football under Kragthorpe." --Hass spent two years under Erickson and then, in his first year under Riley and in a different system, caught for over 1000 yards. Exploded onto the scene, you might say. --Revolutionary 70s style offense? How could a 70s-style offense be revolutionary in the 80s? "Second, Thomas caught 10 passes for 147 yards and a touchdown in Boulder against Colorado." --Thomas had a good game against Colorado in 1988, when Colorado was an 8-4 team and finished the season unranked. Good game for Thomas but not much of a point for you. "Thomas subsequently missed the Fresno State game with a scratched eyeball. Thomas returned to play against Troy Aikman's UCLA in the Rose Bowl and the following three games. Thomas then missed most of the game against Wazzu with a concussion (one catch for -1 yards and one kickoff return for 17 yards before coming out early in the second quarter) and then, beat to crud, he returned kicks but otherwise served merely as a decoy on offense in the Civil War. In total, Thomas put up those numbers in about 8.25 games." --Actually, Thomas put up those numbers in over 9.25 games, but I'll give you the oregon game because I bet he wouldn't have played with today's concussion protocols. Nevertheless, Thomas would still not have put up the gaudy numbers that Hass did. If Thomas only played 8.25 games, that means he missed 25% of the season. That also means that he should have played 1/3 more games than he did. Multiply his 763 yards x 1.33 and you get 1014 yards. And that's coming up with numbers that would mathematically assume that Thomas made -0- receiving yards against the slug-eaters. I don't know what Thomas' numbers actually were from that game. "Third, Oregon State played the hardest schedule in the country in 1988, because it did not play a 1-AA team and the Pac-10 was so strong top-to-bottom in 1988. Sagarin has Oregon State playing the 31st most-difficult schedule in the country in 2005." -- Oregon State's strength of schedule in 1988 was fourth hardest in the Pac 10, not #1 in the country. "Fourth, the pace of play involved more than 7% plays in 2005 than in 1988. Over the course of a season, this accounted for almost an extra game's worth of statistics for a player playing in 2005, when compared to someone in 1988." --Actually, Oregon State had 445 pass plays and 392 run plays for a total of 837 plays in 1988. In 2005, OSU had 459 pass plays and 411 run plays for a total 870. One way to express that is that the 1988 team only ran 96.2% of the offensive plays that the 2005 team did. Another way is to say that the 2005 team ran 103.9% of the plays that the 1988 team did. Neither expression adds up to 7%. In terms of pass plays, the 1988 team ran 96.9% of the pass plays that the 2005 team did. "Fifth, marquee receivers put up much gaudier numbers in 2005 rather than 1987-1988. In order to truly compare numbers, you would probably have to inflate certain statistics, like yards, by somewhere in the neighborhood of 35-40% in order to start approaching an apples-to-apples analysis." --This is what happens when you pull numbers out of thin air. "35-40% in order to start approaching an apples-to-apples analysis"? How high should we go to complete the journey? 50-60%? Nowhere near, it turns out. The receiving yards leader in the country in 1988 was Jason Phillips of Houston with 1444 yards, only 88 yards behind Hass' 2005 numbers, when Hass was #1 in the nation. That works out to a percentage of Phillips catching 94.3% of the yards Hass caught in 2005. Phillips would have been #2 in 2005. The #10 receiving yards leader in the nation in 1988 had 1039 yards while the #10 guy in 2005 had 1195, meaning that #10 guy in 1988 caught 86.9% of the #10 guy in 2005. There is a real difference when you get down to #10, but nowhere near the "35-40% to start approaching" stat that you made up out of nothing. Teams were running the run and shoot and also trying to emulate the 49ers by 1988 and receivers were putting up big numbers, even then. (The leader for 2021 had 1902 yards.) " Big error in seastape's analysis:
Erik Wilhelm had his only healthy season in 1988. He played in every game. His backup, Nick Schlitchte threw three incompletions, so it does not affect your analysis. Matt Moore only played in 10 games. You are not accounting for the statistics of the three other players, who threw the ball in 2005. Hass caught 33.7% of OSU's receptions and 47.0% of the receiving yards." --I'll admit my error that Matt Moore did not play the full schedule in 2005 like Wilhelm did in 1988. That only makes my argument stronger as Hass had to play with Gunderson who had a lower completion percentage than Moore (52% to 59%) and a technically worse td/int ration (2/4 compared to 11/19). Hass still put up gaudy numbers regarding the percentage of receptions and yards that he made for OSU his senior year. "Trying to make it more apples-to-apples: A lot of Oregon State's offense in 1988 was pass plays to running backs, either check-downs or designed screens. Nick Schlichte also caught one gimmick pass play. If we remove those plays, we get: Thomas caught 38.2% of OSU's receptions and 40.1% of the receiving yards. If we do the same for 2005, we get: Hass caught 40.4% of OSU's receptions and 52.7% of the receiving yards." --Oregon State threw more to RBs in 1988, yes, but you don't get to just toss out the RB numbers to adjust Thomas' stats. Give me a break. "Thomas had a higher percentage of touches than Hass in games that he played. He had fewer yards, largely because opposing teams did not have to worry about a Yvenson Bernard gouging them, if they played nickel or dime." --No, 1988 opponents did not have Yvenson Bernard to worry about. But they did have to worry about Pat Chaffey, a back good enough to make the NFL and better backups in 1988. Another point that does nothing for your argument. "Finally, you analyze 1988 Oregon State and 2005 Oregon State, so I thought that I would. In 1988, Oregon State was 47.0:53.0 run:pass and they were called "Air Express." In 2005, Oregon State was 47.4:52.6 run:pass. If I round to the nearest whole number, the run:pass percentages are identical." -- That was my point when I essentially said that the two eras are very comparable, meaning Thomas had plenty of opportunity to rack up yards in 1988. Robb Thomas was an outstanding receiver, one of the best and one of my favorites in OSU history. And yes, he was one hell of an athlete. But not getting the love for Hass...that's just crazy talk. Just thought I'd grind the dead horse into glue.
|
|
|
Post by TheGlove on Jan 13, 2022 19:54:54 GMT -8
It’s really easy to rack up KO return yards when your team is giving up a lot of scores.
|
|
|
Post by Judge Smails on Jan 13, 2022 19:58:18 GMT -8
It’s really easy to rack up KO return yards when your team is giving up a lot of scores. Yes, and Mike had more receiving yards alone in his career than Robb had in all purpose yards including punt & kick returns, yet someone is still arguing the point.
|
|
|
Post by TheGlove on Jan 13, 2022 20:00:07 GMT -8
Everyone here loved Robb Thomas before you started with your endless Thomas > Hass bulls%#t.
Now we all wish Thomas had never played at OSU so we didn’t have to read the inane posts.
|
|
|
Post by beaver55to7 on Jan 14, 2022 6:51:59 GMT -8
Everyone here loved Robb Thomas before you started with your endless Thomas > Hass bulls%#t. Now we all wish Thomas had never played at OSU so we didn’t have to read the inane posts. "Would be nice if people would just see it as an opinion and not something to get all riled up about." irimi
|
|
|
Post by TheGlove on Jan 14, 2022 8:08:13 GMT -8
In addtion to being a GOAT, Robb's son Cole is rumored to be the famous artist Banksy...
|
|
|
Post by giantkillers83 on Jan 14, 2022 19:01:03 GMT -8
Saw both. Thomas was good on some crappy teams. Mike Haas was better. Both good.
|
|