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Post by shelby on Dec 8, 2021 9:27:03 GMT -8
Lot's of hand wringing and observations on what 'appears' to be another very down year for men's basketball. Watching ANY of their games, this year, is a real test of your patience and your own pain threshold . We all get frustrated by what we are watching on the floor . What will be done about it ? Probably nothing because we do set a low bar on the basketball program . Tinkle is a little like Cristobal , without the ability to win with talent alone, against even average opponents . He seems to be an 'innocent bystander' whether there are good or bad things happening on the floor . There does not seem to be any connection between any of the players- it is like they are competing with, versus playing with , each other on the floor . You see this same problem with Dana ( 'deliverance) Altman at the school down South . He starts out slow ( really slow this year ), and then the team decides to gel and they start to turn it on come tourney time. So, it becomes a question of whether or not you have the players that can 'buy into' a team: and player decision to get rid of a loser mentality - or to step up and play to their full potential . Some coaches can play a huge role in this, or they can watch things materialize and become a cheerleader ! Wayne seems to be the cheerleader , and, right now .... including all of us , there is not much to cheer about . Last point is his machine gun like substitutions without any logical purpose behind them . We are nowhere near a 'starting five with a reliable sixth man, than a team holding tryouts ! We are especially poor at CENTER . That cannot be fixed until Choi becomes available ! Individually, we have some impressive ' athletes' - but that is where it ends ...... sad to say !
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Post by obf on Dec 8, 2021 14:17:01 GMT -8
WT is 52 - 78 in pac12 play. Some think that's good and the record and his coaching shouldn't be questioned. Sad. For some on this board there is always an excuse for WT's teams, recruiting, etc. Sadly the only positive most can say in his support revolves around the ineptitude of past coaches. Wow, setting a pretty high bar there! WT is simply a TERRIBLE recruiter. That's why there is no guy(s) ton step into leadership roles. Only two players that have been here 3 seasons that started as frosh. Neither is a respected leader nor has the on-the-court skills to provide that "go to" leader. The x's & o's of hoops just isn't rocket science. They're really isn't much new coaches can do. It's talent, teaching a system, getting players to buy in to your team concept, and some in-game adjustments. WT can't recruit talent. His teams have consistently been inconsistent especially on offense (I've never seem a team that goes thru 3,4,5,8 minute droughts). Players are not overly sound on fundamentals. And, other than an inbounds play executed well WT doesn't really excel at in-game adjustments. So, other than being better than a bunch of poor coaches, what he's a tad better than poor? But, far below "average"? I mean if somehow a miracle happened and he averaged 12-8 in Pac12 play, what? In 7 plus seasons he may have a chance to be .500 in conference play. Of course counting this season's outlook, more like 9 or 10 more. How great... 17, 18 seasons in OSU is a .500 Pac12 team! 👎 Not comparing Tinkle to previous coaches.... The only positive thing *I* can say about Tinkle is that he has taken us to two NCAA tounaments in his tenure, and once (regarless of the blindness of the squirel or the juiciness of the nut), well past the first round. THAT is his positive. Well and intangible stuff, talks a good talk, gives a good interview / press conference. Has a fairly compelling story especially as a family man with his son and daughters in the crowd at games (seriously you dont see that very often), etc. But I would agree that in terms of actual BASKETBALL COACHING ACUMEN, he doesn't bring many positives, as others have said even the two NCAA apperances seemed more like good timing and good fortune than incredible coaching or recruiting. I do think he is good at motivating his guys at times, and he is pretty good at gettingteh crowd riled up. Where I disagree with you is on where Tinkle shines the least. I think he is actually a pretty good recruiter, but I also don't limit "recruiting" to just HS guys like you seem to want to. He has gotten loads of talented guys, both HS and transfer, and he has even been able to develop a few of them. Players HAVE (not all, but many) gotten better under Tinkle. I mean GP2 and Wubanks are playing in the NBA right now, and it would be silly to say that Wayne didn't AT LEAST do no harm, and probably, especially with Eubanks, taught him a lot. The place where I am constantly left befuddled and incredulous is the distinct LACK OF AN OFFENSIVE PLAN! As you say above, basketball is NOT THAT COMPLICATED! When I found out early on that Tinkle wa coming from Montana I figured that he had success there in the typical mid major / small school way. With scheme, preperation, cohesivness instead of supreme raw talent. So imagine my suprise when here we are 7 years and I STILL can't tell you what offensive sets os plays or systems Tinkle prefers, BECAUSE HIS TEAMS DONT RUN ANY! The first year or two we could at least be pleased with some distictive zones and pressures on defense... but Tinkle seemed EMBARASSED to have to be using them. Even being quoted that in future years he wanted to do away with them. I suspect that Tinkle thought he could come to OSU, recuit more talented guys (but not as talented as he needs), especially Tres, Stephen and Ethan and talent and hero ball woudl win the day. It's like he thinks running an actual play is cheating somehow, smh. I am so sick and tired of seeing teams like PSU, Samford, Princeton, etc. Come into Gill run VERY simple plays (a back door cut, a pick and roll, a pick and pop) and make us look like a HS team seeingthem for the first time, while on offense we can't even run ISO ball well. It is all just so disappointing. TLDR: We HAVE talent, this is not a talent issue, never has been. This is a coaching issue, both team cohesion and an utter lack of fundamental play / scheme.
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Post by osubeaver2018 on Dec 8, 2021 17:52:21 GMT -8
For some on this board there is always an excuse for WT's teams, recruiting, etc. Sadly the only positive most can say in his support revolves around the ineptitude of past coaches. Wow, setting a pretty high bar there! WT is simply a TERRIBLE recruiter. That's why there is no guy(s) ton step into leadership roles. Only two players that have been here 3 seasons that started as frosh. Neither is a respected leader nor has the on-the-court skills to provide that "go to" leader. The x's & o's of hoops just isn't rocket science. They're really isn't much new coaches can do. It's talent, teaching a system, getting players to buy in to your team concept, and some in-game adjustments. WT can't recruit talent. His teams have consistently been inconsistent especially on offense (I've never seem a team that goes thru 3,4,5,8 minute droughts). Players are not overly sound on fundamentals. And, other than an inbounds play executed well WT doesn't really excel at in-game adjustments. So, other than being better than a bunch of poor coaches, what he's a tad better than poor? But, far below "average"? I mean if somehow a miracle happened and he averaged 12-8 in Pac12 play, what? In 7 plus seasons he may have a chance to be .500 in conference play. Of course counting this season's outlook, more like 9 or 10 more. How great... 17, 18 seasons in OSU is a .500 Pac12 team! 👎 Not comparing Tinkle to previous coaches.... The only positive thing *I* can say about Tinkle is that he has taken us to two NCAA tounaments in his tenure, and once (regarless of the blindness of the squirel or the juiciness of the nut), well past the first round. THAT is his positive. Well and intangible stuff, talks a good talk, gives a good interview / press conference. Has a fairly compelling story especially as a family man with his son and daughters in the crowd at games (seriously you dont see that very often), etc. But I would agree that in terms of actual BASKETBALL COACHING ACUMEN, he doesn't bring many positives, as others have said even the two NCAA apperances seemed more like good timing and good fortune than incredible coaching or recruiting. I do think he is good at motivating his guys at times, and he is pretty good at gettingteh crowd riled up. Where I disagree with you is on where Tinkle shines the least. I think he is actually a pretty good recruiter, but I also don't limit "recruiting" to just HS guys like you seem to want to. He has gotten loads of talented guys, both HS and transfer, and he has even been able to develop a few of them. Players HAVE (not all, but many) gotten better under Tinkle. I mean GP2 and Wubanks are playing in the NBA right now, and it would be silly to say that Wayne didn't AT LEAST do no harm, and probably, especially with Eubanks, taught him a lot. The place where I am constantly left befuddled and incredulous is the distinct LACK OF AN OFFENSIVE PLAN! As you say above, basketball is NOT THAT COMPLICATED! When I found out early on that Tinkle wa coming from Montana I figured that he had success there in the typical mid major / small school way. With scheme, preperation, cohesivness instead of supreme raw talent. So imagine my suprise when here we are 7 years and I STILL can't tell you what offensive sets os plays or systems Tinkle prefers, BECAUSE HIS TEAMS DONT RUN ANY! The first year or two we could at least be pleased with some distictive zones and pressures on defense... but Tinkle seemed EMBARASSED to have to be using them. Even being quoted that in future years he wanted to do away with them. I suspect that Tinkle thought he could come to OSU, recuit more talented guys (but not as talented as he needs), especially Tres, Stephen and Ethan and talent and hero ball woudl win the day. It's like he thinks running an actual play is cheating somehow, smh. I am so sick and tired of seeing teams like PSU, Samford, Princeton, etc. Come into Gill run VERY simple plays (a back door cut, a pick and roll, a pick and pop) and make us look like a HS team seeingthem for the first time, while on offense we can't even run ISO ball well. It is all just so disappointing. TLDR: We HAVE talent, this is not a talent issue, never has been. This is a coaching issue, both team cohesion and an utter lack of fundamental play / scheme. One thing I noticed at the UA game that I was able to pick up on due to being able to hear the players on the court, (quiet crowd for most of the game outside some good moments in the first half) was a lot of confusion amongst themselves on the offensive end of the floor. It was pretty clear they were SUPPOSED to be running a half court offense, but there was a time specifically I remember Jarod having the ball at the top of the key expecting who I believe was Rand to be either flashing for a pass or setting a ball screen and he was out setting a screen for the guy in the corner. Jarod had to yell at him which set they were in and Wayne also got on him as he was running the other way down the floor after the possession.
I don't think the issue is quite as much as not having a plan, as much as it is players not executing it, understanding it, or buying into the plan at this point. It amazes me to some degree that D1 athletes aren't able to run an offensive set properly, as this was something hammered into my basketball teams as early as middle school basketball, and you got benched if you couldn't run them (my basketball days were done in ~2012 or so, so not THAT long ago). I guess with AAU ball and the way the game has changed there isn't as much emphasis on running set offensive plays, but it still shouldn't be that difficult to do, and if the players can't do it, then simplify it even more (hopefully we aren't already doing that...).
So the issue may be that the new guys don't have a grasp of the offense yet and there's a disconnect between them and the returners, but I'm not sure how much I buy that because we started the year with a starting 5 of all returning players and the results weren't any better. Whatever the disconnect is on the offensive end, it needs to be fixed ASAP. Our defense looks worse than it actually is IMO because of how discombobulated we are offensively, and teams are getting 20 points a game or so off our turnovers which seem to come in the wrong parts of the court and leave us vulnerable in transition.
In the end, while it is the players not executing on the floor (because I agree, there is SOME talent there), it comes down to coaching to get the players to execute what you're trying to do and put them in positions to be successful. Wayne has earned a little bit of time to get it figured out, although this kind of start admittedly has my patience thinning as well. I'm still hopeful that we see a more cohesive unit the rest of the year, even though it is too late now for any postseason aspirations unless we win the conference tournament again. We have a few more non-conference games to figure it out before the bulk of conference play, and it would be really nice to at least see some progress in taking care of the teams we're supposed to be beating.
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Post by Judge Smails on Dec 8, 2021 19:49:42 GMT -8
Not comparing Tinkle to previous coaches.... The only positive thing *I* can say about Tinkle is that he has taken us to two NCAA tounaments in his tenure, and once (regarless of the blindness of the squirel or the juiciness of the nut), well past the first round. THAT is his positive. Well and intangible stuff, talks a good talk, gives a good interview / press conference. Has a fairly compelling story especially as a family man with his son and daughters in the crowd at games (seriously you dont see that very often), etc. But I would agree that in terms of actual BASKETBALL COACHING ACUMEN, he doesn't bring many positives, as others have said even the two NCAA apperances seemed more like good timing and good fortune than incredible coaching or recruiting. I do think he is good at motivating his guys at times, and he is pretty good at gettingteh crowd riled up. Where I disagree with you is on where Tinkle shines the least. I think he is actually a pretty good recruiter, but I also don't limit "recruiting" to just HS guys like you seem to want to. He has gotten loads of talented guys, both HS and transfer, and he has even been able to develop a few of them. Players HAVE (not all, but many) gotten better under Tinkle. I mean GP2 and Wubanks are playing in the NBA right now, and it would be silly to say that Wayne didn't AT LEAST do no harm, and probably, especially with Eubanks, taught him a lot. The place where I am constantly left befuddled and incredulous is the distinct LACK OF AN OFFENSIVE PLAN! As you say above, basketball is NOT THAT COMPLICATED! When I found out early on that Tinkle wa coming from Montana I figured that he had success there in the typical mid major / small school way. With scheme, preperation, cohesivness instead of supreme raw talent. So imagine my suprise when here we are 7 years and I STILL can't tell you what offensive sets os plays or systems Tinkle prefers, BECAUSE HIS TEAMS DONT RUN ANY! The first year or two we could at least be pleased with some distictive zones and pressures on defense... but Tinkle seemed EMBARASSED to have to be using them. Even being quoted that in future years he wanted to do away with them. I suspect that Tinkle thought he could come to OSU, recuit more talented guys (but not as talented as he needs), especially Tres, Stephen and Ethan and talent and hero ball woudl win the day. It's like he thinks running an actual play is cheating somehow, smh. I am so sick and tired of seeing teams like PSU, Samford, Princeton, etc. Come into Gill run VERY simple plays (a back door cut, a pick and roll, a pick and pop) and make us look like a HS team seeingthem for the first time, while on offense we can't even run ISO ball well. It is all just so disappointing. TLDR: We HAVE talent, this is not a talent issue, never has been. This is a coaching issue, both team cohesion and an utter lack of fundamental play / scheme. One thing I noticed at the UA game that I was able to pick up on due to being able to hear the players on the court, (quiet crowd for most of the game outside some good moments in the first half) was a lot of confusion amongst themselves on the offensive end of the floor. It was pretty clear they were SUPPOSED to be running a half court offense, but there was a time specifically I remember Jarod having the ball at the top of the key expecting who I believe was Rand to be either flashing for a pass or setting a ball screen and he was out setting a screen for the guy in the corner. Jarod had to yell at him which set they were in and Wayne also got on him as he was running the other way down the floor after the possession.
I don't think the issue is quite as much as not having a plan, as much as it is players not executing it, understanding it, or buying into the plan at this point. It amazes me to some degree that D1 athletes aren't able to run an offensive set properly, as this was something hammered into my basketball teams as early as middle school basketball, and you got benched if you couldn't run them (my basketball days were done in ~2012 or so, so not THAT long ago). I guess with AAU ball and the way the game has changed there isn't as much emphasis on running set offensive plays, but it still shouldn't be that difficult to do, and if the players can't do it, then simplify it even more (hopefully we aren't already doing that...).
So the issue may be that the new guys don't have a grasp of the offense yet and there's a disconnect between them and the returners, but I'm not sure how much I buy that because we started the year with a starting 5 of all returning players and the results weren't any better. Whatever the disconnect is on the offensive end, it needs to be fixed ASAP. Our defense looks worse than it actually is IMO because of how discombobulated we are offensively, and teams are getting 20 points a game or so off our turnovers which seem to come in the wrong parts of the court and leave us vulnerable in transition.
In the end, while it is the players not executing on the floor (because I agree, there is SOME talent there), it comes down to coaching to get the players to execute what you're trying to do and put them in positions to be successful. Wayne has earned a little bit of time to get it figured out, although this kind of start admittedly has my patience thinning as well. I'm still hopeful that we see a more cohesive unit the rest of the year, even though it is too late now for any postseason aspirations unless we win the conference tournament again. We have a few more non-conference games to figure it out before the bulk of conference play, and it would be really nice to at least see some progress in taking care of the teams we're supposed to be beating.
There is a definite issue with players still being lost on what to do on both ends. But the poster that said there is not a talent issue is not correct either. WT brought in 7 new players and at this point, only 3 of them are PAC 12 players. Rand, Taylor & Davis. The other 4 are really inconsistent and so far, unable to show me that they belong here. The problems are a combination of talent, leadership and coaching at this point.
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Post by alwaysorange on Dec 8, 2021 21:46:27 GMT -8
Some of you have a lot of patience.
The basketball team has been practicing or playing games going on 2 and a half months. By this time a player should know where he should be on the court at all times. I can't imagine a running back on Smith's team consistently going out on a pass pattern when he is supposed to be pass blocking. Something tells me that guy isn't playing. Perhaps more important that guy isn't recruited.
Another some are back to blaming the number of new players. Its now year 8. There should not be a Reliance on so many transfers. Its not like this is year 1 and a number of players transferred out because of a new coach And tinkle had to quickly fill numerous holes.
Again a combination of coaching and recruiting. Both absent.
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Post by nabeav on Dec 9, 2021 9:04:48 GMT -8
My two cents - this roster almost 12 guys that are equally talented. There's no clear starters (other than maybe Alatishe). There's no guys that are clearly "in case of emergency" guys. It's a very equally talented roster, and it's creating continuity problems. I went back through Wayne Tinkle's tenure, we've never had this many guys (10) averaging 11+ minutes a game. Rand is averaging 10.6 currently, but that's going to shoot up now too, as he's played about 20 per game since Andela's injury.
I feel for the coaching staff in that nobody is really taking the reins and justifying staying out on the court. During the Cal broadcast, they had some wild stat that we hadn't had the same leading scorer two games in a row, and in most cases the guy who led us in scoring one night had a very subpar game the next.
It's easy for us to say "just pick 8 guys and go," but given the way that college basketball works, the 3-4 guys you don't pick are gonna be gone next year, and you're probably lucky if you keep all 8 of the guys in your rotation. Then you're starting over again. Last year's team was successful because they had two guys in Ethan and Zach that were here for 4-5 seasons. For a school like OSU that is NEVER (no matter who is coaching or recruiting) going to consistently get top talent (talking one year or two year and done players), you really need to have guys that are going to stick around for multiple years and mature to be successful.
Honestly, I think we're better off taking lower rated high school guys, letting them develop because they're more likely to stay through their senior season, than bringing in higher rated juco or transfer guys. I just don't think that's viable unless you're getting guys with three years of eligibility left AND they're going to stay for those three years.
I still think this team starts winning games (provided they stay in the fight). I'll go on record saying they finish with around 7 Pac-12 wins. However, the slow start brought on by the lack of disparity in talent and the failure of anyone to step up and consistently play well will leave us out of the postseason yet again.
This season is very different from a coaching standpoint in my opinion than any year Tinkle's had at OSU before, and maybe ever. It may take a full year to adjust. This year I do think is a bit of a freebie given the run last season. Next year I'd expect them to be competitive night in and night out in the Pac-12 and not have the faceplant games against smaller schools.
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Post by shelby on Dec 9, 2021 11:02:13 GMT -8
Don’t know how ANYONE can forecast that we will be better next year ! The transfer portal ( especially after a year like this ), will decimate the roster you are looking at today ! Plus, we have a lot of Juniors/ Seniors that may give European play as an option. Alatishe may be the one that can give the NBA a trial .
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Post by treasurevalleybeav on Dec 9, 2021 11:20:09 GMT -8
My two cents - this roster almost 12 guys that are equally talented. There's no clear starters (other than maybe Alatishe). There's no guys that are clearly "in case of emergency" guys. It's a very equally talented roster, and it's creating continuity problems. I went back through Wayne Tinkle's tenure, we've never had this many guys (10) averaging 11+ minutes a game. Rand is averaging 10.6 currently, but that's going to shoot up now too, as he's played about 20 per game since Andela's injury. I feel for the coaching staff in that nobody is really taking the reins and justifying staying out on the court. During the Cal broadcast, they had some wild stat that we hadn't had the same leading scorer two games in a row, and in most cases the guy who led us in scoring one night had a very subpar game the next. It's easy for us to say "just pick 8 guys and go," but given the way that college basketball works, the 3-4 guys you don't pick are gonna be gone next year, and you're probably lucky if you keep all 8 of the guys in your rotation. Then you're starting over again. Last year's team was successful because they had two guys in Ethan and Zach that were here for 4-5 seasons. For a school like OSU that is NEVER (no matter who is coaching or recruiting) going to consistently get top talent (talking one year or two year and done players), you really need to have guys that are going to stick around for multiple years and mature to be successful. Honestly, I think we're better off taking lower rated high school guys, letting them develop because they're more likely to stay through their senior season, than bringing in higher rated juco or transfer guys. I just don't think that's viable unless you're getting guys with three years of eligibility left AND they're going to stay for those three years. I still think this team starts winning games (provided they stay in the fight). I'll go on record saying they finish with around 7 Pac-12 wins. However, the slow start brought on by the lack of disparity in talent and the failure of anyone to step up and consistently play well will leave us out of the postseason yet again. This season is very different from a coaching standpoint in my opinion than any year Tinkle's had at OSU before, and maybe ever. It may take a full year to adjust. This year I do think is a bit of a freebie given the run last season. Next year I'd expect them to be competitive night in and night out in the Pac-12 and not have the faceplant games against smaller schools. I totally agree. That’s one reason I thought it was a mistake to have THIS many players come in. I never understood how there’s was going to be separation since most of the guys brought in seemed so even after maybe Davis.
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Post by rgeorge on Dec 9, 2021 12:59:02 GMT -8
Even... yep. Except for Davis the transfers had almost no career input in their previous programs.
Davis was similar to last season's group of transfers. You could see from day 1 that Davis was the only player that had stats that could lend one to the belief he could make serious contributions. He has yet to fully adjust but has Pac12 skills.
The remaining players are athletes playing hoops. They are projects at best for Pac12 level play.
Just as HS recruiting sank after the "sons" + Drew, this class of transfers is well beneath those brought in last year. And, WT could not keep all of them in the fold.
Folks have talked of how deep and athletic this team is. Athletes? True. Quality D1 basketball players? Hardly.
There's depth... lots of mediocre types with the supposed better players struggling.
This team has been together for months. WT praised their level of play early on, he recruited every single one, he's solely responsible for their development and team play.
There's nothing new here, just less talent.
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Post by osubeaver2018 on Dec 9, 2021 17:25:31 GMT -8
I feel for the coaching staff in that nobody is really taking the reins and justifying staying out on the court. During the Cal broadcast, they had some wild stat that we hadn't had the same leading scorer two games in a row, and in most cases the guy who led us in scoring one night had a very subpar game the next. Even dating back to the elite 8 run, I believe in the six games we won in postseason play, there was a different leading scorer in all 6 of those games. Most of the time though, you had one constant in that Ethan was always right behind whoever the leading scorer was in that game. Last year this was praised as a positive for our depth of scoring ability and being able to scheme around teams trying to take away our "go-to" guy. This year it seems to be more due to the fact that there just isn't someone who has been able to become that go-to guy.
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Post by beaversproud on Dec 12, 2021 13:26:59 GMT -8
Fun fact: Oregon State lost the Pac-12 opener in 2020 and lost at home to Arizona by 34. And then the Beavers caught fire. There is still a lot left in the season. No reason to start playing Russian Roulette against the mirror.........yet. You clearly haven't met the people in here.... It's hot or cold water.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Dec 15, 2021 20:41:16 GMT -8
I feel for the coaching staff in that nobody is really taking the reins and justifying staying out on the court. During the Cal broadcast, they had some wild stat that we hadn't had the same leading scorer two games in a row, and in most cases the guy who led us in scoring one night had a very subpar game the next. Even dating back to the elite 8 run, I believe in the six games we won in postseason play, there was a different leading scorer in all 6 of those games. Most of the time though, you had one constant in that Ethan was always right behind whoever the leading scorer was in that game. Last year this was praised as a positive for our depth of scoring ability and being able to scheme around teams trying to take away our "go-to" guy. This year it seems to be more due to the fact that there just isn't someone who has been able to become that go-to guy. Ethan Thompson was the leading scorer in the Oregon, Oklahoma State and Loyola-Chicago games. Maurice Calloo was the leading scorer in the Colorado and Houston games. The first four games in the run were: UCLA Warith Alatishe Oregon Ethan Thompson Colorado Maurice Calloo Tennessee Roman Silva
You bring up a great point, though.
I still don't see anyone stepping up to fill Ethan Thompson's role, though. Thompson made everyone else around him better.
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