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Post by blackbug on May 7, 2021 10:26:16 GMT -8
If you are sick enough to get Remdesivir then you are probably not in a condition to worry about the side effects. So the real reason to be afraid of it is you are a very sick person. The side effect profile is misleading like many meds. There is no or very little data comparing increase over placebo, just data of what was observed as possible side effects. We have not found a significant side effect from this med in a single patient we have treated at the hospital I work at. Quite often in a med that has weak endpoint supportive data, like Remdesivir, the side effects are likewise minimal. Thus, stated side effects are only found due to labs and extensive research, not typical things you would report. My point wasn't to suggest that there is a problem with Remdesivir. But those who argue against the vaccine suggest that the side effects are terrible. Or they claim that it hasn't been approved. Etc. Etc. Those arguments are kind of silly because side effects are side effects. Probably they already take medicines with the potential for terrible side effects. And it's pretty much a given that any medicine/vaccine for Covid is going to be approved on the emergency use approval basis. If a person denies the vaccine and ends up with Covid, then the reasons for that denial become moot as the medicine to help folks recover from Covid suffer the same shortcomings as they see in the vaccine. Might as well get the vaccine. Understood your point, but I was trying kindly to help you understand it has no merit. The vaccine has more side effects, period. I endorse the vaccine wholeheartedly because of the immense benefit. Comparing the vaccine side effects to Remdesivir side effects does not work. The real point is when you are significantly sick with COVID you are basically already experiencing all the the potential side effects of the vaccine and more. |
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Post by spudbeaver on May 7, 2021 10:29:10 GMT -8
I'm not an anti-vax person. I get a flu shot every year and got Moderna second shot last Monday. I can understand why some folks are skeptics however. Any and all Covid vaccines thus far only FDA 'authorization for emergency use'. No vaccine has FDA 'Approval' to prevent Covid-19 (read the literature they give you when you get the shot). The 'deaths from Covid' number is very misleading too. 'Deaths WITH Covid' is far more representative of who is dying and what they are dying from. ARGH, can't believe I missed this. This is 100% false and gross misinformation. Major pet peeve of mine. This stuff comes from people not understanding how death certificates are filled out. Here is a link to an OHA site that explains it: www.oregon.gov/oha/PH/BIRTHDEATHCERTIFICATES/VITALSTATISTICS/DEATH/Pages/reporting-covid-deaths.aspxThe nice picture in there shows you Part 1 of the death certificate. The system of recording cause of death is ascending from the most immediate cause to then ending with the underlying cause. The first recorded cause of death is generally one of like, 4 or 5 things for COVID: Respiratory failure, multi-organ failure, renal failure, or heart failure. something like that... The LAST recorded cause is the actual cause of death. Not the first thing. A COVID death ends with COVID, it doesn't begin with it. THIS is where bad actors, the uninformed, or internet trolls try to manipulate statistics. a properly filled out death certificate will never have COVID listed in line a. A properly filled out death certificate will have COVID listed as the underlying cause of death on line b through c. What people do is report how many death certificates were hastily or incorrectly filled out to list COVID as the immediate cause of death... It literally boils my blood on this one. Saying deaths with COVID is akin to saying he didn't die from the gunshot, he died from blood loss... It is not just pedantic, it is wrong. at the end of the day, every human on earth eventually only dies from like 5 things: you stop breathing, your heart stops, or a lot of things stop at once... that is it! what actually matters was the thing that made your heart stop. PLEASE stop spreading this bulls%#t around. 2,500 people in Oregon and 580,000 people in the US has died as a result from being infected with COVID. no ifs, ands, ors, or buts about it. Period. They caught COVID. it killed him. Doesn't matter if diabetes was a complication, doesn't matter if it was a 104 fever that triggered a heart attack. doesn't matter if the doctor coded pneumonia ahead of the covid that caused the respiratory failure, doesn't matter if it was a blood clot. The COVID infection was the trigger of events that lead to the death... end of discussion. Because without COVID you don't have the blood clot or the pneumonia or the fever or the whatever. Or an automobile accident. Whenever a post contains "end of discussion", it's pretty much a guarantee that it is far from that! Ha ha |
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Post by atownbeaver on May 7, 2021 10:52:11 GMT -8
Because they aren't very smart? Having a lot of very domain-specific knowledge does not automatically make a person immune to being generally stupid. In fact, our over-specialized academic system could hardly be better designed to create minds more prone to fallacy. What better way to create people vulnerable to group-think and confirmation bias than to sequester them through their formative years in an artificial environment where they single-mindedly study the narrowest of topics and develop arcane studies and arguments to promote minute points - an environment in which advancement depends entirely on gaining the favor of a small cabal of judges and everyone is absolutely confident of their overall superiority?
Seriously. How could you make grad school any worse for developing healthy, perspicacious minds?
And yet it seems that we are to assume that all scientists, doctors, and health administrators are incapable of error, self-dealing, or self-delusion.
No offense Bennyskid, but this reads like a person that has never been to college... It is dripping with classic anti-academia stereotypes... the whole idea that scientists are anti-social dweebs that never see the world outside their labs and can hardly function in society. Honestly, it reads as a person bitter about the accolades educated seem to get and you can almost feel the "they ain't so special" vibe this post gives off. Having gone through graduate school... you are not sequestered. you are not locked in a cage, and believe it or not, your life is not 100% dedicated to one very minute field of study. I can assure you I went outside and drank a whole lot of beer in grad school... Also having gone through grad school, I can assure you that you are not subjected to narrow minded group think or consensus of opinion, quite the contrary in fact. the very purpose of graduate school is for you to find something new to talk about. your job is to grow the field not reinforce it. More over you are put foremost into the cutting edge of your field compared with undergraduate studies and expected to contribute to the growth of new knowledge, not the preservation of old. The pressure and stress of graduate school is the stress of actually finding something new to talk about! And like all academic levels you take classes that are outside the immediate scope of your education. I do agree with the old adage: "do you know what you call a doctor that graduated last in their class? Doctor." Simply having a title doesn't make you credible. It doesn't make you smart. It really does matter WHAT you have contributed to that field. And yes, of course, having a title doesn't make you immune to the foibles of man... But to assume the highly educated in a field are all not to be trusted and subject to some systemic level of corruption or manipulation and to belief that highly educated in one thing leaves them ignorant in other things is silly. One can even argue it makes zero sense whatsoever. why would you ever assume a person driven by curiosity and the desire for knowledge in a field would not carry over these characteristics to the rest of their life? that they would never read about other topics or other interests? that they'd never seek to understand things they don't know? I have found the people with the broadest based of knowledge do tend to be people that carry advanced degrees in things, simply for no other reason than they are motivated to learn stuff. It doesn't begin and end on one topic. |
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Post by atownbeaver on May 7, 2021 10:55:00 GMT -8
ARGH, can't believe I missed this. This is 100% false and gross misinformation. Major pet peeve of mine. This stuff comes from people not understanding how death certificates are filled out. Here is a link to an OHA site that explains it: www.oregon.gov/oha/PH/BIRTHDEATHCERTIFICATES/VITALSTATISTICS/DEATH/Pages/reporting-covid-deaths.aspxThe nice picture in there shows you Part 1 of the death certificate. The system of recording cause of death is ascending from the most immediate cause to then ending with the underlying cause. The first recorded cause of death is generally one of like, 4 or 5 things for COVID: Respiratory failure, multi-organ failure, renal failure, or heart failure. something like that... The LAST recorded cause is the actual cause of death. Not the first thing. A COVID death ends with COVID, it doesn't begin with it. THIS is where bad actors, the uninformed, or internet trolls try to manipulate statistics. a properly filled out death certificate will never have COVID listed in line a. A properly filled out death certificate will have COVID listed as the underlying cause of death on line b through c. What people do is report how many death certificates were hastily or incorrectly filled out to list COVID as the immediate cause of death... It literally boils my blood on this one. Saying deaths with COVID is akin to saying he didn't die from the gunshot, he died from blood loss... It is not just pedantic, it is wrong. at the end of the day, every human on earth eventually only dies from like 5 things: you stop breathing, your heart stops, or a lot of things stop at once... that is it! what actually matters was the thing that made your heart stop. PLEASE stop spreading this bulls%#t around. 2,500 people in Oregon and 580,000 people in the US has died as a result from being infected with COVID. no ifs, ands, ors, or buts about it. Period. They caught COVID. it killed him. Doesn't matter if diabetes was a complication, doesn't matter if it was a 104 fever that triggered a heart attack. doesn't matter if the doctor coded pneumonia ahead of the covid that caused the respiratory failure, doesn't matter if it was a blood clot. The COVID infection was the trigger of events that lead to the death... end of discussion. Because without COVID you don't have the blood clot or the pneumonia or the fever or the whatever. Or an automobile accident. Whenever a post contains "end of discussion", it's pretty much a guarantee that it is far from that! Ha ha pulling out the onesie-twosies examples of errors or mistakes does not make a case or set a trend. Arguing the margins is what losers and liars do. Congrats, you found one example in tens of thousands of a miscoded death, have a gold star! It is the end of the discussion for any reasonable person that understand how the system works. Anybody can always find nits to pick in anything. |
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Post by beaverstever on May 7, 2021 11:42:56 GMT -8
ProBoards management is very sensitive to their forums being used to spread Covid misinformation, and have asked all mods to report such directly to them. I suspect their tolerance will be very low for any user accounts on submitted reports.
Just keep that in mind when posting on this topic.
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Post by beaverstever on May 7, 2021 11:50:57 GMT -8
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Post by mbabeav on May 7, 2021 11:51:45 GMT -8
Some politicians lied and continue to lie, some media have lied and continue to lie. Covid was a new virus infecting millions around the world the responsible scientists/doctors used the information available and made a best guess on how to combat the virus. When new information became available the scientists/doctors changed their approach. The scientists/doctors didn't lie but changed as information changed. Some politicians and media continue to do what they can to screw things up. Unfortunately those politicians/media are of the same political persuasion and many listen to that mindset. Indian docs, for examples are some of the best in the world, many come to America - my PCP is from India. It is the abject failure of a corrupt government, the failure of spiritual leadership, and the abject poverty that results in a medical system insufficient for a country 20% its size which has created a catastrophic human crisis. This could escalated to the point where the nation could descend into civil unrest unseen in a nation this size ever. |
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Post by shelby on May 7, 2021 12:43:03 GMT -8
The biggest variables in this discussion are facts and data.
If I want a a way to post about anything BEAVER- then , this is a fun and informative outlet ! I don't know who I am talking to, nor who might reply ... and there really are no 'canned' opinions - just biases that swing back and forth - with an occasional meaningful or meaningless stat, or set of stats, thrown in, to support the writers position !
Certainly that same framework cannot be used in the case of science and medicine, primarily because that would require medical expertise and PhD level scientists. If I want a Medical Opinion, I do not go to a chef at a 5 star restaurant , no matter how great a chef he is !
I may 'ask' someone what they think about something they know nothing about , however ,I am doing that totally out of courtesy - not because I am sure that I will get a valid response or opinion .
If politics are off base , then - by ANY measure , Medicine and Science should be taboo !
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on May 7, 2021 12:50:33 GMT -8
The biggest variables in this discussion are facts and data. If I want a a way to post about anything BEAVER- then , this is a fun and informative outlet ! I don't know who I am talking to, nor who might reply ... and there really are no 'canned' opinions - just biases that swing back and forth - with an occasional meaningful or meaningless stat, or set of stats, thrown in, to support the writers position ! Certainly that same framework cannot be used in the case of science and medicine, primarily because that would require medical expertise and PhD level scientists. If I want a Medical Opinion, I do not go to a chef at a 5 star restaurant , no matter how great a chef he is ! I may 'ask' someone what they think about something they know nothing about , however ,I am doing that totally out of courtesy - not because I am sure that I will get a valid response or opinion . If politics are off base , then - by ANY measure , Medicine and Science should be taboo ! ... Although the chef at a 5 star restaurant might have a much better understanding of microbes and their potential for spread than a lot of people out there. |
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Post by TheGlove on May 7, 2021 12:57:02 GMT -8
Because they aren't very smart? Having a lot of very domain-specific knowledge does not automatically make a person immune to being generally stupid. In fact, our over-specialized academic system could hardly be better designed to create minds more prone to fallacy. What better way to create people vulnerable to group-think and confirmation bias than to sequester them through their formative years in an artificial environment where they single-mindedly study the narrowest of topics and develop arcane studies and arguments to promote minute points - an environment in which advancement depends entirely on gaining the favor of a small cabal of judges and everyone is absolutely confident of their overall superiority?
Seriously. How could you make grad school any worse for developing healthy, perspicacious minds?
And yet it seems that we are to assume that all scientists, doctors, and health administrators are incapable of error, self-dealing, or self-delusion. Wow. There's a lot to unpack here, but I'll start with what the hell is "perspicacious?" |
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Post by irimi on May 7, 2021 18:10:59 GMT -8
Because they aren't very smart? Having a lot of very domain-specific knowledge does not automatically make a person immune to being generally stupid. In fact, our over-specialized academic system could hardly be better designed to create minds more prone to fallacy. What better way to create people vulnerable to group-think and confirmation bias than to sequester them through their formative years in an artificial environment where they single-mindedly study the narrowest of topics and develop arcane studies and arguments to promote minute points - an environment in which advancement depends entirely on gaining the favor of a small cabal of judges and everyone is absolutely confident of their overall superiority?
Seriously. How could you make grad school any worse for developing healthy, perspicacious minds?
And yet it seems that we are to assume that all scientists, doctors, and health administrators are incapable of error, self-dealing, or self-delusion.
I respectfully disagree with this. If graduate studies are not laser-focused, then what’s the point of them? I would argue that there has been a movement away from a broader, more general education as an undergrad, and that this is what needs to change. Our college graduates need to be more well-rounded in their education. Much more. But grad school? No. And doctors? Obviously you don’t know anyone close to you who has (or is) going through med school to be a doctor. It is hard. Really hard. But there are idiots in every profession, and these people tend to fall by the wayside while the stars shine brighter. Yes, in my town, a local doctor last summer said that Covid is nothing to worry about. No need for masks. Just wash your hands. And there are lots of nurses who haven’t gotten the vaccine. So you are partially correct that the profession doesn’t automatically necessitate trust. |
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Post by spudbeaver on May 7, 2021 19:07:50 GMT -8
Or an automobile accident. Whenever a post contains "end of discussion", it's pretty much a guarantee that it is far from that! Ha ha pulling out the onesie-twosies examples of errors or mistakes does not make a case or set a trend. Arguing the margins is what losers and liars do. Congrats, you found one example in tens of thousands of a miscoded death, have a gold star! It is the end of the discussion for any reasonable person that understand how the system works. Anybody can always find nits to pick in anything. I seem to get labeled as stupid and/or undereducated many times on this board. Fortunately for me and my family, I’m neither! Many people like me feel that when a poster says that it’s the end of discussion, or that’s it, period, that it’s those folks are the ones who need to open their ears and at least consider what others are saying, especially when facts are presented. I also find it disappointing that you tell poster Bennyskid that because of his post he seems to be someone that never went to college. Wow. Lots of very smart and successful people never went to college, I’m sure you knew that, yet you slighted all of them in one sentence! JR Simplot spoke at our HS graduation. He dropped out of school in 8th grade, but seems to have done ok! I’m disappointed in you as an educated poster to stoop to the level you did. You should know better. Being an educated person and all. |
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on May 7, 2021 21:17:03 GMT -8
pulling out the onesie-twosies examples of errors or mistakes does not make a case or set a trend. Arguing the margins is what losers and liars do. Congrats, you found one example in tens of thousands of a miscoded death, have a gold star! It is the end of the discussion for any reasonable person that understand how the system works. Anybody can always find nits to pick in anything. I seem to get labeled as stupid and/or undereducated many times on this board. Fortunately for me and my family, I’m neither! Many people like me feel that when a poster says that it’s the end of discussion, or that’s it, period, that it’s those folks are the ones who need to open their ears and at least consider what others are saying, especially when facts are presented. I also find it disappointing that you tell poster Bennyskid that because of his post he seems to be someone that never went to college. Wow. Lots of very smart and successful people never went to college, I’m sure you knew that, yet you slighted all of them in one sentence! JR Simplot spoke at our HS graduation. He dropped out of school in 8th grade, but seems to have done ok! I’m disappointed in you as an educated poster to stoop to the level you did. You should know better. Being an educated person and all.  Michael Dell dropped out of college as a freshman.  Steve Jobs dropped out of college as a freshman.  Julian Assange dropped out of college as a freshman.  Bill Gates dropped out of college as a sophomore. ![]()  Evan Williams (one of Twitter's co-founders) dropped out of college as a sophomore.  Jack "Rasputin" Dorsey (another Twitter co-founder) dropped out of college.  Mark Zuckerberg dropped out of college as a sophomore.  Larry Ellison (Oracle) dropped out of college as a sophomore.  Travis Kalanick (Uber) dropped out of college months before graduating.  John Mackey (Whole Foods) dropped out of college before graduating. Idiots all. Everyone without an advanced degree is a complete idiot and cannot make up their own mind about anything. We all know that we require someone who has an advanced degree to tell us what to think and do. That's science! |
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Post by sparty on May 8, 2021 5:42:05 GMT -8
You know the governor could encourage vaccinations by allowing those that have been to attend. Kind of like you have two brothers one decides to screw off and gets grounded but rather than punishing the one mom and dad decide that all three need to be grounded. Or instead of the a COVID card she could allow those to attend depending on political affiliation? |
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Post by irimi on May 8, 2021 7:40:29 GMT -8
I seem to get labeled as stupid and/or undereducated many times on this board. Fortunately for me and my family, I’m neither! Many people like me feel that when a poster says that it’s the end of discussion, or that’s it, period, that it’s those folks are the ones who need to open their ears and at least consider what others are saying, especially when facts are presented. I also find it disappointing that you tell poster Bennyskid that because of his post he seems to be someone that never went to college. Wow. Lots of very smart and successful people never went to college, I’m sure you knew that, yet you slighted all of them in one sentence! JR Simplot spoke at our HS graduation. He dropped out of school in 8th grade, but seems to have done ok! I’m disappointed in you as an educated poster to stoop to the level you did. You should know better. Being an educated person and all. Michael Dell dropped out of college as a freshman. Steve Jobs dropped out of college as a freshman. Julian Assange dropped out of college as a freshman. Bill Gates dropped out of college as a sophomore. ![]() Evan Williams (one of Twitter's co-founders) dropped out of college as a sophomore. Jack "Rasputin" Dorsey (another Twitter co-founder) dropped out of college. Mark Zuckerberg dropped out of college as a sophomore. Larry Ellison (Oracle) dropped out of college as a sophomore. Travis Kalanick (Uber) dropped out of college months before graduating. John Mackey (Whole Foods) dropped out of college before graduating. Idiots all. Everyone without an advanced degree is a complete idiot and cannot make up their own mind about anything. We all know that we require someone who has an advanced degree to tell us what to think and do. That's science! Funny stuff. These individuals are not the norm; they are the outliers. Go take a picture of your gas station attendant or maybe your supermarket manager or hairdresser. But don’t get me wrong. I rely upon some of these people to know their area of expertise and to perform their job well. Like the mechanic who fixes my car. I wouldn’t ask him to take a look at my sore tooth, for example. And though I am friends with my dentist, I wouldn’t trust his opinion on much outside of dentistry and baseball (especially the Asian leagues). These guys are all smart enough to surround themselves with the people who know how to make them successful. And they are smart enough to keep learning. As an aside, isn’t it fascinating that you can readily think of men who have dropped out of college and gone on to be successful, but it is much harder to think of women who have done the same? Or black people. Interesting. Very interesting. |
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