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Post by irimi on Apr 4, 2021 19:24:29 GMT -8
There was about a second between the first three rounds and the last two. The officer is going to fire until he feels that the person is no longer a threat. Not being able to see the victim, or know how many rounds actually hit the target, I’m going to assume the officer used the correct amount of force until evidence shows otherwise. Their purpose is not to kill the person. Charging an officer with a deadly weapon unfortunately often doesn’t leave much of a choice. And this is the problem. Don’t hold the person that disregarded cops orders, threatened to kill the cop. charged the cop with a deadly weapon, but focus on why the cop shot 5 times! I’m sure the guy would have been fine after only taking 3 bullets. A few band-aids and you’re back to the nuthouse. Like idiots who say the cops should shoot guys in the leg. (Sadly this includes our President) It’s not a movie you knotheads. You shoot center mass! Get the AK-47’s off the street! Oye No one has said what you think they have said, so you are fighting an imaginary foe. Hope you are winning.
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Post by irimi on Apr 4, 2021 19:39:41 GMT -8
The movie thing again. I’m sure police spouses and children everywhere would be super happy that their loved one put the gun down to try to karate chop the deranged 270 lb dude coming at them with a knife. Cato! Maybe the police could all wear top hats like Oddjob in the Bond movie and slice the dudes hand off that had the knife in it! cdn3.volusion.com/stlse.vzhek/v/vspfiles/photos/BCGFOJ-2.jpg?v-cache=1567748470By the way, there isn't a martial artist worth his salt who would advise anybody to ignore the pistol, taser, night stick, or pepper spray at their side and take down a knife wielding attacker with a karate chop. Maybe you've watched too many movies?
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Post by beaver94 on Apr 4, 2021 19:55:19 GMT -8
The movie thing again. I’m sure police spouses and children everywhere would be super happy that their loved one put the gun down to try to karate chop the deranged 270 lb dude coming at them with a knife. Cato! Maybe the police could all wear top hats like Oddjob in the Bond movie and slice the dudes hand off that had the knife in it! cdn3.volusion.com/stlse.vzhek/v/vspfiles/photos/BCGFOJ-2.jpg?v-cache=1567748470I am not talking movies. I had a teacher that used a real knife in knife defense, but I took that as showmanship. I applaud the first officer for running away and regrouping. I hold no ill will toward the officer who gunned down the man wielding the knife. But killing another human being is not easy. The officer will have trauma. The logical thing to do is to minimize situations like this. Better training, better non lethal weapons. Speaking from a martial arts perspective, an attacker coming in a straight line out of control is the easiest attack to deal with. As such, I wonder how we can improve our law enforcement so that something like this doesn’t have to happen. And timing is critical. I think the officer could’ve done less harm by shooting him earlier, rather than waiting to pull the trigger. The gun is a weapon of distance, while the knife is a close up weapon. At the close quarters the perp was still able to pose a threat which prompted the additional two shots. If he had fired sooner at more of a distance, he wouldn’t have felt as threatened. It is called Ma-ai, or kind of an awareness of space and time. This isn’t movie stuff. It’s practical. The movie thing again. I’m sure police spouses and children everywhere would be super happy that their loved one put the gun down to try to karate chop the deranged 270 lb dude coming at them with a knife. Cato! Maybe the police could all wear top hats like Oddjob in the Bond movie and slice the dudes hand off that had the knife in it! cdn3.volusion.com/stlse.vzhek/v/vspfiles/photos/BCGFOJ-2.jpg?v-cache=1567748470I am not talking movies. I had a teacher that used a real knife in knife defense, but I took that as showmanship. I applaud the first officer for running away and regrouping. I hold no ill will toward the officer who gunned down the man wielding the knife. But killing another human being is not easy. The officer will have trauma. The logical thing to do is to minimize situations like this. Better training, better non lethal weapons. Speaking from a martial arts perspective, an attacker coming in a straight line out of control is the easiest attack to deal with. As such, I wonder how we can improve our law enforcement so that something like this doesn’t have to happen. And timing is critical. I think the officer could’ve done less harm by shooting him earlier, rather than waiting to pull the trigger. The gun is a weapon of distance, while the knife is a close up weapon. At the close quarters the perp was still able to pose a threat which prompted the additional two shots. If he had fired sooner at more of a distance, he wouldn’t have felt as threatened. It is called Ma-ai, or kind of an awareness of space and time. This isn’t movie stuff. It’s practical. Hopefully the day comes, sooner than later, that there is a good way to effectively neutralize someone in a non lethal way. Currently those forms are often ineffective or sometimes lethal themselves. More training is always good. I’m curious though, as someone that’s never done martial arts, how many hours of training do you think it would take to train an officer to deal with something like this with some type of martial art? And how close to 100% effective could they get in dealing with a knife welding person? Doesn’t hand to hand combat with a possible drug fueled person become very dangerous regardless of training?
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Post by believeinthebeavs on Apr 4, 2021 20:11:02 GMT -8
The movie thing again. I’m sure police spouses and children everywhere would be super happy that their loved one put the gun down to try to karate chop the deranged 270 lb dude coming at them with a knife. Cato! Maybe the police could all wear top hats like Oddjob in the Bond movie and slice the dudes hand off that had the knife in it! cdn3.volusion.com/stlse.vzhek/v/vspfiles/photos/BCGFOJ-2.jpg?v-cache=1567748470I am not talking movies. I had a teacher that used a real knife in knife defense, but I took that as showmanship. I applaud the first officer for running away and regrouping. I hold no ill will toward the officer who gunned down the man wielding the knife. But killing another human being is not easy. The officer will have trauma. The logical thing to do is to minimize situations like this. Better training, better non lethal weapons. Speaking from a martial arts perspective, an attacker coming in a straight line out of control is the easiest attack to deal with. As such, I wonder how we can improve our law enforcement so that something like this doesn’t have to happen. And timing is critical. I think the officer could’ve done less harm by shooting him earlier, rather than waiting to pull the trigger. The gun is a weapon of distance, while the knife is a close up weapon. At the close quarters the perp was still able to pose a threat which prompted the additional two shots. If he had fired sooner at more of a distance, he wouldn’t have felt as threatened. It is called Ma-ai, or kind of an awareness of space and time. This isn’t movie stuff. It’s practical. If you shoot him earlier people will say that sufficient effort wasn't made to de-escalate person was to far away to be a true threat. There is always going to be people that question the actions. If he came at me I will shoot until I am sure that the threat is neutralized.
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Post by spudbeaver on Apr 4, 2021 20:19:38 GMT -8
I am not talking movies. I had a teacher that used a real knife in knife defense, but I took that as showmanship. I applaud the first officer for running away and regrouping. I hold no ill will toward the officer who gunned down the man wielding the knife. But killing another human being is not easy. The officer will have trauma. The logical thing to do is to minimize situations like this. Better training, better non lethal weapons. Speaking from a martial arts perspective, an attacker coming in a straight line out of control is the easiest attack to deal with. As such, I wonder how we can improve our law enforcement so that something like this doesn’t have to happen. And timing is critical. I think the officer could’ve done less harm by shooting him earlier, rather than waiting to pull the trigger. The gun is a weapon of distance, while the knife is a close up weapon. At the close quarters the perp was still able to pose a threat which prompted the additional two shots. If he had fired sooner at more of a distance, he wouldn’t have felt as threatened. It is called Ma-ai, or kind of an awareness of space and time. This isn’t movie stuff. It’s practical. I am not talking movies. I had a teacher that used a real knife in knife defense, but I took that as showmanship. I applaud the first officer for running away and regrouping. I hold no ill will toward the officer who gunned down the man wielding the knife. But killing another human being is not easy. The officer will have trauma. The logical thing to do is to minimize situations like this. Better training, better non lethal weapons. Speaking from a martial arts perspective, an attacker coming in a straight line out of control is the easiest attack to deal with. As such, I wonder how we can improve our law enforcement so that something like this doesn’t have to happen. And timing is critical. I think the officer could’ve done less harm by shooting him earlier, rather than waiting to pull the trigger. The gun is a weapon of distance, while the knife is a close up weapon. At the close quarters the perp was still able to pose a threat which prompted the additional two shots. If he had fired sooner at more of a distance, he wouldn’t have felt as threatened. It is called Ma-ai, or kind of an awareness of space and time. This isn’t movie stuff. It’s practical. Hopefully the day comes, sooner than later, that there is a good way to effectively neutralize someone in a non lethal way. Currently those forms are often ineffective or sometimes lethal themselves. More training is always good. I’m curious though, as someone that’s never done martial arts, how many hours of training do you think it would take to train an officer to deal with something like this with some type of martial art? And how close to 100% effective could they get in dealing with a knife welding person? Doesn’t hand to hand combat with a possible drug fueled person become very dangerous regardless of training? 18-21 feet a person with a knife can lethally attack a person before they draw a weapon. Bruce Lee or Steven Segal included. This is proven. (Not the movie guys ref)
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Post by irimi on Apr 4, 2021 20:36:40 GMT -8
Hopefully the day comes, sooner than later, that there is a good way to effectively neutralize someone in a non lethal way. Currently those forms are often ineffective or sometimes lethal themselves. More training is always good. I’m curious though, as someone that’s never done martial arts, how many hours of training do you think it would take to train an officer to deal with something like this with some type of martial art? And how close to 100% effective could they get in dealing with a knife welding person? Doesn’t hand to hand combat with a possible drug fueled person become very dangerous regardless of training? 18-21 feet a person with a knife can lethally attack a person before they draw a weapon. Bruce Lee or Steven Segal included. This is proven. (Not the movie guys ref) This is true. But the police office had already drawn his weapon in the case at hand, so your point is meaningless.
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Post by irimi on Apr 4, 2021 21:07:47 GMT -8
I am not talking movies. I had a teacher that used a real knife in knife defense, but I took that as showmanship. I applaud the first officer for running away and regrouping. I hold no ill will toward the officer who gunned down the man wielding the knife. But killing another human being is not easy. The officer will have trauma. The logical thing to do is to minimize situations like this. Better training, better non lethal weapons. Speaking from a martial arts perspective, an attacker coming in a straight line out of control is the easiest attack to deal with. As such, I wonder how we can improve our law enforcement so that something like this doesn’t have to happen. And timing is critical. I think the officer could’ve done less harm by shooting him earlier, rather than waiting to pull the trigger. The gun is a weapon of distance, while the knife is a close up weapon. At the close quarters the perp was still able to pose a threat which prompted the additional two shots. If he had fired sooner at more of a distance, he wouldn’t have felt as threatened. It is called Ma-ai, or kind of an awareness of space and time. This isn’t movie stuff. It’s practical. I am not talking movies. I had a teacher that used a real knife in knife defense, but I took that as showmanship. I applaud the first officer for running away and regrouping. I hold no ill will toward the officer who gunned down the man wielding the knife. But killing another human being is not easy. The officer will have trauma. The logical thing to do is to minimize situations like this. Better training, better non lethal weapons. Speaking from a martial arts perspective, an attacker coming in a straight line out of control is the easiest attack to deal with. As such, I wonder how we can improve our law enforcement so that something like this doesn’t have to happen. And timing is critical. I think the officer could’ve done less harm by shooting him earlier, rather than waiting to pull the trigger. The gun is a weapon of distance, while the knife is a close up weapon. At the close quarters the perp was still able to pose a threat which prompted the additional two shots. If he had fired sooner at more of a distance, he wouldn’t have felt as threatened. It is called Ma-ai, or kind of an awareness of space and time. This isn’t movie stuff. It’s practical. Hopefully the day comes, sooner than later, that there is a good way to effectively neutralize someone in a non lethal way. Currently those forms are often ineffective or sometimes lethal themselves. More training is always good. I’m curious though, as someone that’s never done martial arts, how many hours of training do you think it would take to train an officer to deal with something like this with some type of martial art? And how close to 100% effective could they get in dealing with a knife welding person? Doesn’t hand to hand combat with a possible drug fueled person become very dangerous regardless of training? Great questions! I’m not advocating martial arts study to the point that they are able to disarm a knife wielding individual. That’s cool and fun, but there should be other strategies invoked before it gets to that point. One of my favorite teachers used to tell us when we’d practice knife takeaways that the best thing to do is to get the hell out of there. And only if that wasn’t the option then we should disarm the guy and prepare to get cut along the way. A good knife fighter is a terrible thing. But having a better grasp of weapon to weapon fighting is important. As I mentioned before, a gun is a long distance weapon and a knife is not. The attacker must close the distance in order to deal any damage to the police officer, but the policeman doesn’t have to. In fact, he could have positioned the patrol car between himself and the assailant and nullified much of the threat while still maintaining his advantage. Or like I postulated earlier, a single shot earlier might have been sufficient to stop him. Certainly, he would’ve lost blood and momentum before he came within range of the police office allowing the cop to reevaluate the situation and not to panic. If your training relies upon pain compliance, then yes, against drug-fueled individuals it just won’t work well. So it’s always best to train to take the balance of your partner, not to inflict pain, but that’s me talking shop. And when you’re dealing with a knife-wielding druggie, then you don’t want to get inside his knife range without it being absolutely necessary. A knife adds six or more inches to your reach. But a stick can add a couple of feet or more. Tear gas, probably 10-12 feet (I’m guessing). And if you pull a gun, well, now your reach has just expanded quite a bit. Don’t they train to hit a target at 25 yards? If you can keep your attacker out of range of his attack but still in range of your attack, then there is no need to rush or panic. Panic causes problems. There was a reason that the officer shot him two more times. He shouldn’t have felt that threatened.
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Post by irimi on Apr 4, 2021 21:21:03 GMT -8
I am not talking movies. I had a teacher that used a real knife in knife defense, but I took that as showmanship. I applaud the first officer for running away and regrouping. I hold no ill will toward the officer who gunned down the man wielding the knife. But killing another human being is not easy. The officer will have trauma. The logical thing to do is to minimize situations like this. Better training, better non lethal weapons. Speaking from a martial arts perspective, an attacker coming in a straight line out of control is the easiest attack to deal with. As such, I wonder how we can improve our law enforcement so that something like this doesn’t have to happen. And timing is critical. I think the officer could’ve done less harm by shooting him earlier, rather than waiting to pull the trigger. The gun is a weapon of distance, while the knife is a close up weapon. At the close quarters the perp was still able to pose a threat which prompted the additional two shots. If he had fired sooner at more of a distance, he wouldn’t have felt as threatened. It is called Ma-ai, or kind of an awareness of space and time. This isn’t movie stuff. It’s practical. If you shoot him earlier people will say that sufficient effort wasn't made to de-escalate person was to far away to be a true threat. There is always going to be people that question the actions. If he came at me I will shoot until I am sure that the threat is neutralized. I agree that you should neutralize the threat. I disagree that it needed to be done with 5 bullets. It worked and the officer was safe, so we can be happy about that. I won’t go so far as to say the 5 bullets were excessive, but had the officer understood the basics of combat, then he would have had himself in a safer position where the perp could not attack him easily. He would have had the higher ground, so to speak, and either could have negotiated or could have spent fewer bullets. What happened happened. It sucks for everyone involved, especially the police officer who fired his weapon. He probably just wanted a normal night. So what can society do to help alleviate this? We’ll always have bums, homeless, winos, druggies, and the like. And we’ll always have police.
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Post by believeinthebeavs on Apr 4, 2021 21:25:02 GMT -8
I haven't seen the results from the investigation by the Benton County Major Crimes Team and the Albany Police to make any comments about what happened in this situation.
I certainly wouldn't take anything that s%#tsheet says as gospel truth.
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Post by Werebeaver on Apr 5, 2021 11:50:47 GMT -8
I am not talking movies. I had a teacher that used a real knife in knife defense, but I took that as showmanship. I applaud the first officer for running away and regrouping. I hold no ill will toward the officer who gunned down the man wielding the knife. But killing another human being is not easy. The officer will have trauma. The logical thing to do is to minimize situations like this. Better training, better non lethal weapons. Speaking from a martial arts perspective, an attacker coming in a straight line out of control is the easiest attack to deal with. As such, I wonder how we can improve our law enforcement so that something like this doesn’t have to happen. And timing is critical. I think the officer could’ve done less harm by shooting him earlier, rather than waiting to pull the trigger. The gun is a weapon of distance, while the knife is a close up weapon. At the close quarters the perp was still able to pose a threat which prompted the additional two shots. If he had fired sooner at more of a distance, he wouldn’t have felt as threatened. It is called Ma-ai, or kind of an awareness of space and time. This isn’t movie stuff. It’s practical. If you shoot him earlier people will say that sufficient effort wasn't made to de-escalate person was to far away to be a true threat. There is always going to be people that question the actions. If he came at me I will shoot until I am sure that the threat is neutralized. And there will always be people who have no interest in questioning the actions of law enforcement. In the words of Jack Webb’s fictional creation Sgt. Joe Friday, “Policing is only easy in a Police State”.
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Post by believeinthebeavs on Apr 5, 2021 11:56:26 GMT -8
If you shoot him earlier people will say that sufficient effort wasn't made to de-escalate person was to far away to be a true threat. There is always going to be people that question the actions. If he came at me I will shoot until I am sure that the threat is neutralized. And there will always be people who have no interest in questioning the actions of law enforcement. In the words of Jack Webb’s fictional creation Sgt. Joe Friday, “Policing is only easy in a Police State”. I hope you are not insinuating that I am one of those people that don't question their actions.
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Post by OSUprof on Apr 5, 2021 12:37:09 GMT -8
If I remember my crime reports right (why have they disappeared from the GT?), this guy had a long, long history of contact with law enforcement before Sunday morning, dating back to his teens. I think his brother or a relative with the same last name also has been involved with law enforcement on many occasions. Here's the key comment of this thread. This person had many encounters with law enforcement over many years. None of those many interactions impressed on the now deceased that he should mend his ways or behave in a different manner that was not threatening to his fellow citizens. The consequences that he faced from the earlier actions were not sufficient or important enough for him deter future behavior of this kind, including this final incident.
His death was not the result of a single interaction and failure to comply with lawfully given instructions that ended in the termination of his life at the hotel. He had many opportunities in this encounter to put down his weapon as he had many opportunities over the years to change his path in life.
I find it tragic that this person died. I do not peg the failure here on the police action in this incident - this was going to happen sooner or later with a cop or a citizen in their home that was confronted with this guy and his knife.
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Post by mbabeav on Apr 5, 2021 12:43:43 GMT -8
It's such a sad situation and my prayers go out to the officers, to the man shot (need for better psychiatric services is endemic in our society), and to all involved. I am also thankful that there were not other people out and about. That is a busy area and bullets can fly a long way.
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Post by irimi on Apr 5, 2021 16:20:25 GMT -8
If I remember my crime reports right (why have they disappeared from the GT?), this guy had a long, long history of contact with law enforcement before Sunday morning, dating back to his teens. I think his brother or a relative with the same last name also has been involved with law enforcement on many occasions. Here's the key comment of this thread. This person had many encounters with law enforcement over many years. None of those many interactions impressed on the now deceased that he should mend his ways or behave in a different manner that was not threatening to his fellow citizens. The consequences that he faced from the earlier actions were not sufficient or important enough for him deter future behavior of this kind, including this final incident.
His death was not the result of a single interaction and failure to comply with lawfully given instructions that ended in the termination of his life at the hotel. He had many opportunities in this encounter to put down his weapon as he had many opportunities over the years to change his path in life.
I find it tragic that this person died. I do not peg the failure here on the police action in this incident - this was going to happen sooner or later with a cop or a citizen in their home that was confronted with this guy and his knife.
So you can chalk it up to it was going to happen sooner or later. That's a pretty sad way to look at the situation, but it does absolve you of looking deeper for an answer. Of course, it was. Because we have such poor support for people on the fringes. This was clearly a drug/mental health issue, which have become extremely common in our society in recent years, often leading to an officer involved shooting. Some people are OK with that. These people made their choices and have followed an unproductive path. We don't need to mollycoddle them until they figure things out. Others think "there but for the grace of God go I." It's a short fall from the pew to the gutter, and so much of life cannot be planned. Because the killing of a human is a traumatic event, we really ought to look to improve non-lethal responses to events like this. It really wouldn't be hard. We just need a culture change.
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Post by Werebeaver on Apr 5, 2021 16:42:13 GMT -8
Thanks for the discussion everyone. It's managed somehow to stay pretty civilized.
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