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Post by beaveragain on Jun 11, 2020 11:07:20 GMT -8
garypayton23 - - I think you might want to give yourself a shake. Making the case that Aleah is a true PG is pretty tough. She is cerebral, YES. She has good court awareness, YES. She is a good decision maker, YES. But these qualities, unto themselves, do not make a pure point guard. A pure point guard must be able to attack off the dribble when she is pressured; she must be able to score when she hits the paint in full flight; she must be able to penetrate and kick..... It's pretty tough to make the case for Aleah on any of these necessary skills for a PG.... I'm a big fan of Aleah Goodman. I admire her game. But admiring her game doesn't make her point guard any more than admiring Taya's game makes her a 5. GO BEAVS!! This seems more like the description of a type of PG. Not what all PG's have to be. And the fact that Scott hasn't made any great attempt at getting another PG to take over the job is to me a pretty good indication that he sees Aleah as his PG. I happen to agree with Scott's assessment. For instance, penetrating and kicking. This is Destiny's style and to some extent Mik's also, but this has not traditionally been the Beav's style. Ball movement to get the open outside or inside shot is more the Beav's tradition, and that seems right for Aleah's skillset.
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Post by 411500 on Jun 11, 2020 11:15:00 GMT -8
garypayton23 - -Simply saying over and over that Aleah is a great point guard doesn't make her one. Pointing out Destiny's several limitations doesn't improve Aleah's game.
It's obvious that you are enamoured with the run-the-system, great quarterback aspect of a PG - which, indeed is part of the job requirements for a PG. In addition to the leadership attributes you talk about, the PG also MUST be able to execute certain on-the-court skills. PG is not all leadership, not all run-the-show. It also requires the PG to breakdown the defense in a way that Aleah is not highly skilled....
If you separate the leadership qualities required of a PG from the physical skill set required of a PG you might be able to see this topic more clearly. GO BEAVS!!
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2ndGenBeaver
Sophomore
Posts: 1,700
Grad Year: 1991 (MS/CS) 1999 (PhD/CS)
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Post by 2ndGenBeaver on Jun 11, 2020 11:17:42 GMT -8
An interesting exercise here is less about trying to defend or extol the skill set of our players, but to ponder how an opposing team would defend against the skill set of our players. If I am an opposing coach, I am taking my quickest, craftiest, most aggressive pickpocket guard and having her get on Aleah the moment she gets the ball. And then every couple of possessions I will gamble and put my next quickest, craftiest, aggressive guard on her in a double team, ideally using the baseline and/or half court line as a defender.....or put the aforementioned second quickest guard on the most likely "pressure relief valve" player helping AG get the ball up the court. I would rather try to attack the Beavers before the ball gets into the hands of bigs whom I likely will have a harder time countering.....
Several seasons of WBB - dating back at least to Ali Gibson, Syd, Katie, Mik have shown us to be susceptible to that kind of defense, to the tune of several cheap lay-ins on the other end, coupled with rattled Beaver guards, coupled with tired Beaver guards - I would submit a relatively recent set of games at the LA schools as exhibit A of that approach.....
I think what worries me is: 1) this problem doesn't manifest itself in the preseason, and we build entire game approaches based on advancing the ball with relative ease, just to 2) encounter most upper echelon Pac-12 teams with a seemingly endless supply of those crafty, quick, aggressive, pickpockety guards, and 3) now we don't even have much bench depth to spell a player (in AG) who seems at least as susceptible to this disruptive approach as any past Rueck team.
So it is perhaps less about Aleah's stellar qualities or weaknesses as an individual player and more about countering what I suspect we will see larger doses of as a defensive game plan against the Beavers, given our roster as it now stands.
Go Beavers!
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Post by believeinthebeavs on Jun 11, 2020 12:03:24 GMT -8
What position did Aleah play all 4 years of high school?
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Post by beaveragain on Jun 11, 2020 13:09:22 GMT -8
What position did Aleah play all 4 years of high school? Shoot... some here must have forgot the high level of play in Oregon 5A hoops is really close to D1/Pac12 play! Shame on us! Shoot...one of us here seems to have forgotten where all of the other PG's in D1 learned to play. Shame on someone.
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Post by garypayton23 on Jun 11, 2020 13:27:38 GMT -8
I don't think I ever said Aleah was a GREAT Point guard? You said I said it over and over? She is solid at best. If you ask me which player I would take then the answer would be Destiny. Destiny can do things naturaly that Aleah can't do. I still say Destiny is not a True point guard and more of a scoring point guard. She goes too fast at times and makes bone headed passed. Me saying Aleah is a TRUE point guard doesn't mean I think she is a super star at all. I am just saying her entire skill set is of what a coach would describe as a TRUE point guard.
Trust me, I agree with you guys in the sense that she is going to struggle at times and I really wish we had another back up PG to take up minutes. I am still holding out hope something happens and we bring in a JC kid or a grad transfer.
My argument is that she is a TRUE point guard in everyway. She is not a GREAT point guard. She lacks the athletic ability to do things that quicker point guards can do. That doesn't mean she isn't a true point guard.
I grew up as a point guard and coaches always referred to the 'True Point Guard' as a natural passer, smart player, executes the offense and leads by example. To me this is Aleah.
You
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Post by alwaysorange on Jun 11, 2020 13:50:29 GMT -8
I am sure Aleah will do well. But I don't expect her to play 40 minutes a game who may I ask is the second string point guard? Anybody?
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Post by 411500 on Jun 11, 2020 14:00:35 GMT -8
garypayton23 - Thanks for your comments.... Dissecting the distinctions between a "True Point Guard" and a "great Point Guard" are a bit more esoteric than I can negotiate on a message board.
So, I'll agree with you that Aleah is a really good, smart player. She will be our team captain this year and I'm a 100% fan of Aleah and the Program. GO BEAVS !!
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Post by TheGlove on Jun 11, 2020 15:58:18 GMT -8
It takes 5 people on the team to break pressure, it's not all on the PG.
Once into the half court set, it can still be a 5 "man" game if they want it to.
Driving passed tough on ball pressure isn't the only way to deal with it.
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Post by beavershoopsfan on Jun 11, 2020 16:01:44 GMT -8
An interesting exercise here is less about trying to defend or extol the skill set of our players, but to ponder how an opposing team would defend against the skill set of our players. If I am an opposing coach, I am taking my quickest, craftiest, most aggressive pickpocket guard and having her get on Aleah the moment she gets the ball. And then every couple of possessions I will gamble and put my next quickest, craftiest, aggressive guard on her in a double team, ideally using the baseline and/or half court line as a defender.....or put the aforementioned second quickest guard on the most likely "pressure relief valve" player helping AG get the ball up the court. I would rather try to attack the Beavers before the ball gets into the hands of bigs whom I likely will have a harder time countering..... Several seasons of WBB - dating back at least to Ali Gibson, Syd, Katie, Mik have shown us to be susceptible to that kind of defense, to the tune of several cheap lay-ins on the other end, coupled with rattled Beaver guards, coupled with tired Beaver guards - I would submit a relatively recent set of games at the LA schools as exhibit A of that approach..... I think what worries me is: 1) this problem doesn't manifest itself in the preseason, and we build entire game approaches based on advancing the ball with relative ease, just to 2) encounter most upper echelon Pac-12 teams with a seemingly endless supply of those crafty, quick, aggressive, pickpockety guards, and 3) now we don't even have much bench depth to spell a player (in AG) who seems at least as susceptible to this disruptive approach as any past Rueck team. So it is perhaps less about Aleah's stellar qualities or weaknesses as an individual player and more about countering what I suspect we will see larger doses of as a defensive game plan against the Beavers, given our roster as it now stands. Go Beavers! 2ndGenBeaver hits the nail on the head in listing how opposing defenses will defend Goodman (and OSU) in '20-'21. Goodman is an elite shooter and a capable passer. She will be defended extremely tightly and harassed the entire length of the court by any team that has a quick point guard. And that will be the vast majority of the teams on the Beavs' schedule next season. Goodman's elite accuracy as a three-point shooter actually forces her defender to defend her further away from the basket, forcing Goodman to put the ball on the floor to try to create separation from defenders. There were games last season when she struggled to get off her shot because she could not shake her defender enough to allow for adequate separation. Barring a roster addition at the point guard position, Goforth will likely be called upon to help break the press and initiate some offensive sets. If Goforth can break down opposing defenses better than Goodman and dish off the dribble, then Goodman may be the beneficiary of some wide-open looks as she has during her three seasons in Corvallis so far. That is where Goodman is at her best when she has space and time to set her feet and let it fly.
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Post by alwaysorange on Jun 11, 2020 20:23:36 GMT -8
I am sure Aleah will do well. But I don't expect her to play 40 minutes a game who may I ask is the second string point guard? Anybody? I didn't think anybody had an answer. Thanks for playing or not.
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Post by ricke71 on Jun 11, 2020 20:33:51 GMT -8
An interesting exercise here is less about trying to defend or extol the skill set of our players, but to ponder how an opposing team would defend against the skill set of our players. If I am an opposing coach, I am taking my quickest, craftiest, most aggressive pickpocket guard and having her get on Aleah the moment she gets the ball. And then every couple of possessions I will gamble and put my next quickest, craftiest, aggressive guard on her in a double team, ideally using the baseline and/or half court line as a defender.....or put the aforementioned second quickest guard on the most likely "pressure relief valve" player helping AG get the ball up the court. I would rather try to attack the Beavers before the ball gets into the hands of bigs whom I likely will have a harder time countering..... Several seasons of WBB - dating back at least to Ali Gibson, Syd, Katie, Mik have shown us to be susceptible to that kind of defense, to the tune of several cheap lay-ins on the other end, coupled with rattled Beaver guards, coupled with tired Beaver guards - I would submit a relatively recent set of games at the LA schools as exhibit A of that approach..... I think what worries me is: 1) this problem doesn't manifest itself in the preseason, and we build entire game approaches based on advancing the ball with relative ease, just to 2) encounter most upper echelon Pac-12 teams with a seemingly endless supply of those crafty, quick, aggressive, pickpockety guards, and 3) now we don't even have much bench depth to spell a player (in AG) who seems at least as susceptible to this disruptive approach as any past Rueck team. So it is perhaps less about Aleah's stellar qualities or weaknesses as an individual player and more about countering what I suspect we will see larger doses of as a defensive game plan against the Beavers, given our roster as it now stands. Go Beavers! 2ndGenBeaver hits the nail on the head in listing how opposing defenses will defend Goodman (and OSU) in '20-'21. Goodman is an elite shooter and a capable passer. She will be defended extremely tightly and harassed the entire length of the court by any team that has a quick point guard. And that will be the vast majority of the teams on the Beavs' schedule next season. Goodman's elite accuracy as a three-point shooter actually forces her defender to defend her further away from the basket, forcing Goodman to put the ball on the floor to try to create separation from defenders. There were games last season when she struggled to get off her shot because she could not shake her defender enough to allow for adequate separation. Barring a roster addition at the point guard position, Goforth will likely be called upon to help break the press and initiate some offensive sets. If Goforth can break down opposing defenses better than Goodman and dish off the dribble, then Goodman may be the beneficiary of some wide-open looks as she has during her three seasons in Corvallis so far. That is where Goodman is at her best when she has space and time to set her feet and let it fly. Corosdale will also be a key part of breaking the press. She's shown her skills in that regard in her Freshman & Sophomore season. If Taylor Jones is even a little advanced from this past season, the shooting prowess of Ellie Mack & Aleah Goodman, and the passing abilities of those two, plus Corosdale's passing should contribute to an interesting inside-outside open type offense. Emphasis back on quick ball movement instead of (a few too many) desperation drives to the middle.
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Post by believeinthebeavs on Jun 11, 2020 21:29:17 GMT -8
I am sure Aleah will do well. But I don't expect her to play 40 minutes a game who may I ask is the second string point guard? Anybody? I didn't think anybody had an answer. Thanks for playing or not. I'm interested in seeing who Rueck has relieving her. Personally I have no idea.
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Post by beavershoopsfan on Jun 12, 2020 8:04:39 GMT -8
2ndGenBeaver hits the nail on the head in listing how opposing defenses will defend Goodman (and OSU) in '20-'21. Goodman is an elite shooter and a capable passer. She will be defended extremely tightly and harassed the entire length of the court by any team that has a quick point guard. And that will be the vast majority of the teams on the Beavs' schedule next season. Goodman's elite accuracy as a three-point shooter actually forces her defender to defend her further away from the basket, forcing Goodman to put the ball on the floor to try to create separation from defenders. There were games last season when she struggled to get off her shot because she could not shake her defender enough to allow for adequate separation. Barring a roster addition at the point guard position, Goforth will likely be called upon to help break the press and initiate some offensive sets. If Goforth can break down opposing defenses better than Goodman and dish off the dribble, then Goodman may be the beneficiary of some wide-open looks as she has during her three seasons in Corvallis so far. That is where Goodman is at her best when she has space and time to set her feet and let it fly. Corosdale will also be a key part of breaking the press. She's shown her skills in that regard in her Freshman & Sophomore season. If Taylor Jones is even a little advanced from this past season, the shooting prowess of Ellie Mack & Aleah Goodman, and the passing abilities of those two, plus Corosdale's passing should contribute to an interesting inside-outside open type offense. Emphasis back on quick ball movement instead of (a few too many) desperation drives to the middle. Corosdale won't be dribbling the ball regularly to break the press. She may remain in the backcourt to set screens for Goodman as Goodman or another OSU guard attempts to clear the backcourt. I agree that quick ball movement on offense will be more vital next season as there won't be an OSU player on the roster who has shown an ability to drive and attack the paint consistently off the dribble. Consequently, expect opposing defenses to get up in the grills of OSU players and overplay the passing lanes to try to deny entry passes in to Jones. OSU coaches have done well in recent years in instructing the offense to look backdoor to punish the aggressiveness of their opponents. Backdoor cuts will be even more prevalent and necessary in '20-'21 to keep opposing defenses guessing and out of our passing lanes.
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Post by 411500 on Jun 12, 2020 9:46:38 GMT -8
bhf writes: "movement on offense will be more vital next season as there won't be an OSU player who has shown an ability to drive and attack the paint consistently off the dribble. Consequently, expect opposing defenses to get up in the grills of OSU players and overplay the passing lanes..."
This pretty much summarizes what I think is the biggest challenge facing the Beaver offence this coming season....Last season our most painful offensive draughts came when no one (mainly Destiny) could break down the defense by dribble penetration, AND the offensive sets could not spring an open shot...
Rueck might be at the wrong end of basketball history as modern defenses with quick, lengthy defenders have greatly reduced the effectiveness of pass, screen and cut offences....Rueck (and Tara) remain the Masters of this style of offensive attack, but even programs like Arizona are proving they can defend it much better than they could in the past....
So, the Beavs are looking at big challenges on offence this year. Fortunately, we are recruiting at a very high level, and we are signing players with the skill set to make Rueck's offensive system work....
At any rate, I'm onboard and looking forward to the ride....Like most of us, however, I think the ride will be a lot smoother if we can land a skilled slasher in the Destiny mold.... GO BEAVS !!
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