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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Mar 4, 2020 20:51:17 GMT -8
I also wanted to add that, preseason, Oregon State was predicted to finish eighth in the Pac-12 by Sports Illustrated. (7th was UCLA. The preseason media poll flip-flopped Oregon state and UCLA, and the pair were closer to each other than they were to 6th or 9th.) And here we are more than four months later, and Oregon State is eighth in line for postseason in the Pac-12. (And a bad no call away from seventh.) The Beavers are exactly, where they were projected to be. When we're projected to finish 8th in the league and we meet that expectation, I'd say that it's a failure of a season. Anytime we are projected to finish in the bottom half of the league and we can't rise above that, then we are losing to gravity and the situation is likely to remain poor if not worsen. Weird. So meeting expectations is a failure?
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Post by baseba1111 on Mar 4, 2020 20:57:39 GMT -8
When we're projected to finish 8th in the league and we meet that expectation, I'd say that it's a failure of a season. Anytime we are projected to finish in the bottom half of the league and we can't rise above that, then we are losing to gravity and the situation is likely to remain poor if not worsen. Weird. So meeting expectations is a failure? Lol... those are made up media expectations. You know that right? The same ones that picked 1st place UCLA like 7th? 9th? Do you remember the team's? Yours? Pretty sure neither were 8th. Which by the way we're not. OSU is currently 11th.
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Post by beaverinohio on Mar 5, 2020 8:10:15 GMT -8
Yeah, this idea that the media's wild a** guesses on where the Beavers are going to finish equals expectations for the team is just silly. And if you're basically losing one main contributor from a 10-8 team and retaining 3 of top 4 scorers and rebounders plus top shot blocker, and 5 of your top 6 mpg players and expectations are to be 8th in the league and currently 5-11, then there is something wrong.
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Post by treasurevalleybeav on Mar 5, 2020 10:14:30 GMT -8
Funny... equalizing MP make Hunt and Vernon very close in Pac12 contributions with far better assist to turnover ratio... as a under used Soph and true Frosh vs experience Jr. ZR: 29.1 MP / 7.7 pts / 2.8 reb / 1.2 A:TO Hunt: 14 MP / 2.8 pts / 1.3 reb / 1.0 A:TO * 5.9 pts / 2.7 rebs / 1.0 Vernon:8.6 MP /1.2 pts /0.8rebs / 5.5 A:TO * 4.1 pts / 2.7 rebs / 5.5 And, both are athletically superior defenders, just no court time. ZR is a sub (if that) on any decent Pac12 team. So, in a sense guess your right, he should be starting and playing 29+ min a game. Seems to be working. I don't mean to be nostalgic, but didn't we do well against CU when Hunt was running point? and when we hosted AZ? Early PAC-12 games. Wonder which games killed his PT. Yes and with Vernon against ASU
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Mar 5, 2020 10:22:12 GMT -8
Weird. So meeting expectations is a failure? Lol... those are made up media expectations. You know that right? The same ones that picked 1st place UCLA like 7th? 9th? Do you remember the team's? Yours? Pretty sure neither were 8th. Which by the way we're not. OSU is currently 11th. On January 23rd you said "Only thing that may be equal to losing this game vs maybe the worst UCLA team in 15 years... winning and hearing the same post game refrain." ....And you are complaining about media expectations?
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Post by baseba1111 on Mar 5, 2020 13:23:50 GMT -8
Lol... those are made up media expectations. You know that right? The same ones that picked 1st place UCLA like 7th? 9th? Do you remember the team's? Yours? Pretty sure neither were 8th. Which by the way we're not. OSU is currently 11th. On January 23rd you said "Only thing that may be equal to losing this game vs maybe the worst UCLA team in 15 years... winning and hearing the same post game refrain." ....And you are complaining about media expectations? You have a serious issue with straw man arguments... Worst UCLA team isn't a predicted finish in league play use as a team expectation! It is seen by coaches, media, fans as the worst UCLA team in 15 years... as far as talent and play coming off their last coaching farce. I never complained about media PREDICTIONS... I said it is inane, fan stupidity to use media predictions as a precursor to team expectations. Especially when the team talked postseason all preseason! Keep trying... holy smoke and mirrors!
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Mar 5, 2020 13:53:37 GMT -8
Yeah, this idea that the media's wild a** guesses on where the Beavers are going to finish equals expectations for the team is just silly. And if you're basically losing one main contributor from a 10-8 team and retaining 3 of top 4 scorers and rebounders plus top shot blocker, and 5 of your top 6 mpg players and expectations are to be 8th in the league and currently 5-11, then there is something wrong. Whoa. I will break this down sentence by sentence. Your first sentence says that expectations are not expectations. The media's expectations are "wild a** guesses." Respectfully, the Pac-12 media knows more about the Pac-12 than the average Oregon State fan does. To expand upon the foregoing: Sports Illustrated, just to choose an example, opined that Oregon State would finish eighth. Their rationale? ET, TT, and KK are all in the upper half of the Pac-12 in talent, but there is a huge gulf between the three and everyone else on the roster. If all three play well, Oregon State can play with anyone. If one of the three does not show up, Oregon State probably loses. ESPN picked Oregon State seventh, a spot ahead of woefully underrated UCLA. Bursting Brackets picked Oregon State eighth, indicating that the team rides on Tres Tinkle, who has had a down year. Bursting Brackets indicates that Oregon State's top three are each in the top half of the Pac-12, but expected the Pac-12 to improve and for Oregon State to not do as well against an improved Pac-12. SBNation picked Oregon State eighth. NBC picked Oregon State eighth. NBC indicated that Oregon State would finish higher if Payton Dastrup played to potential. At some point, they stop being wild a** guesses and start to be consensus expectations. Taking in all of the expectations of the media into account, if anyone had a wild a** guess that Oregon State was going to finish better than seventh, they were flatly overly-optimistic. As to your second sentence, there is either "something wrong" or the conference dramatically improved, which it undoubtedly has. Look at NET. Oregon State is 5-11 and is 15 spots higher in NET than they were last year at 10-8.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Mar 5, 2020 14:03:34 GMT -8
On January 23rd you said "Only thing that may be equal to losing this game vs maybe the worst UCLA team in 15 years... winning and hearing the same post game refrain." ....And you are complaining about media expectations? You have a serious issue with straw man arguments... Worst UCLA team isn't a predicted finish in league play use as a team expectation! It is seen by coaches, media, fans as the worst UCLA team in 15 years... as far as talent and play coming off their last coaching farce. I never complained about media PREDICTIONS... I said it is inane, fan stupidity to use media predictions as a precursor to team expectations. Especially when the team talked postseason all preseason! Keep trying... holy smoke and mirrors! Your bolded, italicized, and underlined exclamatory sentence does not make sense as written. Drunk and Stoopid is not making a straw man's argument, because you appear to be incorporating someone else's prediction as your own. Further, you quite clearly stated that you would rather lose than hear someone talk positively about this basketball team. You can try and Chuck Schumer backpedal out of that, if you would like, but your UCLA post was 100% wrong. Additionally, I never ever root against Oregon State, even if it would be inconvenient to do so. I am a big fan of the team. For me, the negativity coming from the Fire Tinkle crowd is draining all of the fun out of being an Oregon State fan for all sports. I am less excited about baseball and women's basketball. I am much less excited about men's basketball. This still has the potential to be a great season for the men, even if that is a highly unlikely eventuality. A conversation about Oregon State's future can be had after the nets have been cut or not. Talking about it mid-season is frankly annoying.
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Post by beaverinohio on Mar 5, 2020 16:34:01 GMT -8
Yeah, this idea that the media's wild a** guesses on where the Beavers are going to finish equals expectations for the team is just silly. And if you're basically losing one main contributor from a 10-8 team and retaining 3 of top 4 scorers and rebounders plus top shot blocker, and 5 of your top 6 mpg players and expectations are to be 8th in the league and currently 5-11, then there is something wrong. Whoa. I will break this down sentence by sentence. Your first sentence says that expectations are not expectations. The media's expectations are "wild a** guesses." Respectfully, the Pac-12 media knows more about the Pac-12 than the average Oregon State fan does. To expand upon the foregoing: Sports Illustrated, just to choose an example, opined that Oregon State would finish eighth. Their rationale? ET, TT, and KK are all in the upper half of the Pac-12 in talent, but there is a huge gulf between the three and everyone else on the roster. If all three play well, Oregon State can play with anyone. If one of the three does not show up, Oregon State probably loses. ESPN picked Oregon State seventh, a spot ahead of woefully underrated UCLA. Bursting Brackets picked Oregon State eighth, indicating that the team rides on Tres Tinkle, who has had a down year. Bursting Brackets indicates that Oregon State's top three are each in the top half of the Pac-12, but expected the Pac-12 to improve and for Oregon State to not do as well against an improved Pac-12. SBNation picked Oregon State eighth. NBC picked Oregon State eighth. NBC indicated that Oregon State would finish higher if Payton Dastrup played to potential. At some point, they stop being wild a** guesses and start to be consensus expectations. Taking in all of the expectations of the media into account, if anyone had a wild a** guess that Oregon State was going to finish better than seventh, they were flatly overly-optimistic. As to your second sentence, there is either "something wrong" or the conference dramatically improved, which it undoubtedly has. Look at NET. Oregon State is 5-11 and is 15 spots higher in NET than they were last year at 10-8. So you can honestly say that your expectations for this team were that it would be 5-11 and in 11th place in the conference at this point in time? Do you think WT and the players' expectations were where the team is now? If that is truly where you thought this team would be at this point, then I guess you're happy and the rest of us are crazy to think that just as other teams have improved in the conference WT would have helped the Beavers do the same thing. And I'm not sure why you think a coach should get a pass because the media sees his team as second division and he manages to finish in the second division. So I guess the key for WT to keep his job is to make sure the media has low expectations for the Beavs. Look Beaver Nation, I met expectations. As to the media knowing full well how teams will finish, I believe currently there are 11 teams in AP top 25 that were not in the preseason poll. Five of those teams are currently in the top 15 with two in the top 5 (Dayton at 3 and San Diego St. at 5). But the media knows all.
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Post by irimi on Mar 5, 2020 16:50:13 GMT -8
When we're projected to finish 8th in the league and we meet that expectation, I'd say that it's a failure of a season. Anytime we are projected to finish in the bottom half of the league and we can't rise above that, then we are losing to gravity and the situation is likely to remain poor if not worsen. Weird. So meeting expectations is a failure? Depends on whose expectations are being met. Depends on how high or low those expectations are.
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Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2020 18:12:03 GMT -8
Weird. So meeting expectations is a failure? Depends on whose expectations are being met. Depends on how high or low those expectations are. THIS^. Crazy to me how some just don't get that.
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Post by baseba1111 on Mar 5, 2020 20:48:35 GMT -8
You have a serious issue with straw man arguments... Worst UCLA team isn't a predicted finish in league play use as a team expectation! It is seen by coaches, media, fans as the worst UCLA team in 15 years... as far as talent and play coming off their last coaching farce. I never complained about media PREDICTIONS... I said it is inane, fan stupidity to use media predictions as a precursor to team expectations. Especially when the team talked postseason all preseason! Keep trying... holy smoke and mirrors! Your bolded, italicized, and underlined exclamatory sentence does not make sense as written. Drunk and Stoopid is not making a straw man's argument, because you appear to be incorporating someone else's prediction as your own. Further, you quite clearly stated that you would rather lose than hear someone talk positively about this basketball team. You can try and Chuck Schumer backpedal out of that, if you would like, but your UCLA post was 100% wrong. Additionally, I never ever root against Oregon State, even if it would be inconvenient to do so. I am a big fan of the team. For me, the negativity coming from the Fire Tinkle crowd is draining all of the fun out of being an Oregon State fan for all sports. I am less excited about baseball and women's basketball. I am much less excited about men's basketball. This still has the potential to be a great season for the men, even if that is a highly unlikely eventuality. A conversation about Oregon State's future can be had after the nets have been cut or not. Talking about it mid-season is frankly annoying. Dude you're so confused maybe the lack of fun should lead you elsewhere? UCLA prediction? It wasn't my prediction. Get a clue. It was a media statement... hence Drunk's inclusion in discussion of media predicting league finishes. So... the straw man is in play and you added to it. The media statement about UCLA didn't give a league placement. It had zero to do with where UCLA finished. It was a synopsis of where they stood talent wise post Alford. As I stated. The straw man was the inclusion of my post that had zero relationship to league finishes, yet implied two things... first, I took that media assessment of UCLA to be accurate; two, that it had a prediction attached. The post tried to incorrectly falsify my and other posts that media predictions on league finishes are also what sets team "expectations". So, again as is your want, you enter a discussion flaunting an IQ, but no substantive knowledge of the actually topic. And... believe what you want about Wayne and posts about his shortcomings. You don't have to read them. You don't have to be here. But, believe that other than your copy and paste historical diatribes, the mtns you decide to plant flags border on fan lunacy. So, my advice is stay in you lane. Post what you want, but I'd be very careful pulling out judgment cards on ANY other posts. Ken Simonton, Luke, anyone with actual coaching/playing experience, plus a couple others approved of this message.
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Mar 5, 2020 20:52:46 GMT -8
So you've been on the phone with Ken and Luke? Cool.
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Mar 5, 2020 20:54:10 GMT -8
Meanwhile Pivek really made a neat shot at the end of the 1st quarter in Vegas.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Mar 9, 2020 12:12:26 GMT -8
Whoa. I will break this down sentence by sentence. Your first sentence says that expectations are not expectations. The media's expectations are "wild a** guesses." Respectfully, the Pac-12 media knows more about the Pac-12 than the average Oregon State fan does. To expand upon the foregoing: Sports Illustrated, just to choose an example, opined that Oregon State would finish eighth. Their rationale? ET, TT, and KK are all in the upper half of the Pac-12 in talent, but there is a huge gulf between the three and everyone else on the roster. If all three play well, Oregon State can play with anyone. If one of the three does not show up, Oregon State probably loses. ESPN picked Oregon State seventh, a spot ahead of woefully underrated UCLA. Bursting Brackets picked Oregon State eighth, indicating that the team rides on Tres Tinkle, who has had a down year. Bursting Brackets indicates that Oregon State's top three are each in the top half of the Pac-12, but expected the Pac-12 to improve and for Oregon State to not do as well against an improved Pac-12. SBNation picked Oregon State eighth. NBC picked Oregon State eighth. NBC indicated that Oregon State would finish higher if Payton Dastrup played to potential. At some point, they stop being wild a** guesses and start to be consensus expectations. Taking in all of the expectations of the media into account, if anyone had a wild a** guess that Oregon State was going to finish better than seventh, they were flatly overly-optimistic. As to your second sentence, there is either "something wrong" or the conference dramatically improved, which it undoubtedly has. Look at NET. Oregon State is 5-11 and is 15 spots higher in NET than they were last year at 10-8. So you can honestly say that your expectations for this team were that it would be 5-11 and in 11th place in the conference at this point in time? Do you think WT and the players' expectations were where the team is now? If that is truly where you thought this team would be at this point, then I guess you're happy and the rest of us are crazy to think that just as other teams have improved in the conference WT would have helped the Beavers do the same thing. And I'm not sure why you think a coach should get a pass because the media sees his team as second division and he manages to finish in the second division. So I guess the key for WT to keep his job is to make sure the media has low expectations for the Beavs. Look Beaver Nation, I met expectations. As to the media knowing full well how teams will finish, I believe currently there are 11 teams in AP top 25 that were not in the preseason poll. Five of those teams are currently in the top 15 with two in the top 5 (Dayton at 3 and San Diego St. at 5). But the media knows all. The season was front-loaded. Finishing 7th/8th was my expectation. I had no illusions that anyone was going to come in and make a big splash among the newcomers. The improvement in KK, ZR, and ET are great, but they were offset by losing ST and TT not playing to potential. If last year's TT had shown up for the bulk of the season, I believe that we are having a different conversation right now, but he seemed hobbled for a couple of games, when we absolutely needed a 100% TT. The national media is made up of a bunch of morons. No debate. You are preaching to the choir. The conference media, especially, when you expand that to liberally include pretty much everyone had us pegged at 7th/8th, depending on whether they bought into UCLA or not. And guess what, we finished 8th. If your expectations were higher, I do not know what to tell you. As for what it will take to keep WT's job, that is another conversation, which diverges from our previous conversation. The reason that expectations were low is because recruiting and retention have been poor. I think that little of either has to do with WT and are more of an indictment on the scandalous lack of support that Oregon State Men's Basketball has received since at least BDC was at the helm. I think that expectations are 7th/8th, because Tinkle put together a better team than Oregon State deserves based on financial support. And I think that he coached to expectations. Getting rid of Tinkle for finishing better than 10th is really missing the boat on how to improve the team. You improve the team by financial outlays. You improve the team by improving facilities and building a positive fan experience and a positive culture. Oregon State is going to turn into coach poison, if Tinkle is truly on the hot seat after a 17+ win season in Corvallis. This is circa 2013 anti-Riley all over again. Who the hell do we think that we are? Proverbs 16:18. Pride goeth before a fall.
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