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Post by shelby on Feb 6, 2020 9:42:49 GMT -8
I love stability as long as progress is being made. I hate the yo yo we have been on. Seems to seriously be something missing - 1) sometimes the kids seem prepared , other times NOT 2) sometimes the kids seem motivated , other times NOT 3) Inconsistency is a hallmark of this team !
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Post by spudbeaver on Feb 6, 2020 9:57:09 GMT -8
Tinkle has now coached in 100 conference games. His teams have won 38 of them.
At the 100 conference game mark, Robinson's teams won 36 of them.
A two game difference in 100 games played. That's a negligible difference. Besides, the conference is weaker during the run of Tinkle than that of Robinson. So conference records are a wash.
How about overall records? Tinkle is at 0.489 so far in his 6th season. Robinson was 0.481 at the exact same spot in his 6th season. In other words, Tinkle's teams are winning roughly 49 games out of every 100 played while Robinson's teams won roughly 48 games out of every 100 played. A 1 win difference. That's a wash.
How about fan interest? Tinkle's team's are drawing an average 217 more fans per game than Robinson's teams across 6 seasons. That's despite season ticket sales incentives that were not given during the Robinson era.
Looking past the numbers, do you see a cohesive underlying offensive or defensive philosophy, that he's imparting to his players through coaching? Or that his teams are strong in the fundamentals of the game?
Tinkle did have a NCAA appearance - a big accomplishment. He also recorded the only 5-win season in the past 100 years of Beaver basketball - the lowest win total of the period. That season set a record for the lowest winning percentage in OSU history at 0.156. The good is offset by the bad again here.
Some will tell you that the bad season wasn't his fault. But I'll tell you that every coach has injuries or lost recruits - and in the end it counts against the coach.
But not with Teflon Tinkle.
Great points. For some reason I always forget/overlook that the records are so close between the two. Both unsatisfactory in my opinion.
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Post by Judge Smails on Feb 6, 2020 10:04:39 GMT -8
Tinkle has now coached in 100 conference games. His teams have won 38 of them.
At the 100 conference game mark, Robinson's teams won 36 of them.
A two game difference in 100 games played. That's a negligible difference. Besides, the conference is weaker during the run of Tinkle than that of Robinson. So conference records are a wash.
How about overall records? Tinkle is at 0.489 so far in his 6th season. Robinson was 0.481 at the exact same spot in his 6th season. In other words, Tinkle's teams are winning roughly 49 games out of every 100 played while Robinson's teams won roughly 48 games out of every 100 played. A 1 win difference. That's a wash.
How about fan interest? Tinkle's team's are drawing an average 217 more fans per game than Robinson's teams across 6 seasons. That's despite season ticket sales incentives that were not given during the Robinson era.
Looking past the numbers, do you see a cohesive underlying offensive or defensive philosophy, that he's imparting to his players through coaching? Or that his teams are strong in the fundamentals of the game?
Tinkle did have a NCAA appearance - a big accomplishment. He also recorded the only 5-win season in the past 100 years of Beaver basketball - the lowest win total of the period. That season set a record for the lowest winning percentage in OSU history at 0.156. The good is offset by the bad again here.
Some will tell you that the bad season wasn't his fault. But I'll tell you that every coach has injuries or lost recruits - and in the end it counts against the coach.
But not with Teflon Tinkle.
Great points. For some reason I always forget/overlook that the records are so close between the two. Both unsatisfactory in my opinion. Agree, they are both unsatisfactory. However, it is only fair to compare conference records. Robinson's overall recorded is padded with worthless CBI runs.
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Feb 6, 2020 10:19:40 GMT -8
Tinkle has now coached in 100 conference games. His teams have won 38 of them.
At the 100 conference game mark, Robinson's teams won 36 of them.
A two game difference in 100 games played. That's a negligible difference. Besides, the conference is weaker during the run of Tinkle than that of Robinson. So conference records are a wash.
How about overall records? Tinkle is at 0.489 so far in his 6th season. Robinson was 0.481 at the exact same spot in his 6th season. In other words, Tinkle's teams are winning roughly 49 games out of every 100 played while Robinson's teams won roughly 48 games out of every 100 played. A 1 win difference. That's a wash.
How about fan interest? Tinkle's team's are drawing an average 217 more fans per game than Robinson's teams across 6 seasons. That's despite season ticket sales incentives that were not given during the Robinson era.
Looking past the numbers, do you see a cohesive underlying offensive or defensive philosophy, that he's imparting to his players through coaching? Or that his teams are strong in the fundamentals of the game?
Tinkle did have a NCAA appearance - a big accomplishment. He also recorded the only 5-win season in the past 100 years of Beaver basketball - the lowest win total of the period. That season set a record for the lowest winning percentage in OSU history at 0.156. The good is offset by the bad again here.
Some will tell you that the bad season wasn't his fault. But I'll tell you that every coach has injuries or lost recruits - and in the end it counts against the coach.
But not with Teflon Tinkle.
Great points. For some reason I always forget/overlook that the records are so close between the two. Both unsatisfactory in my opinion. Robinson inherited 4 starters and nearly everyone else from Jay and had significant Jay contributors contributing to his team for three years. Tinkle inherited no starters, nobody averaging over 4 points a game, an all were gone in 2 seasons. Big difference.
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Post by beavsinorange on Feb 6, 2020 10:28:59 GMT -8
I think Wayne is a good coach and a great ambassador for Oregon State University. After his first two seasons, Wayne totally exceeded expectations and put us on the map. Btw, the Tournament season was a huge accomplishment and not an anomaly. Give credit where credit was due. WT led a team of talented freshmen, a program changing player GP2, and solid role-playing veterans to earn a 7 SEED in 2016. Then we hit the 5 win abyss the following year due to injuries, etc. As a lifelong Beaver Fan who never misses a minute (harder now that I have 17 month twins. , that will always be a special year for me. I remember joining a bracket pool and picking the Beavs to go all the way in 16, since I promised it for years. HAHA. I was always sad around tournament time when the Beavers were never close to making the bracket. Despite the positivity, the results as of late are not what I expected. I have watched Beaver Basketball all my life. My first memories were of Ralph's final years and we had tons of tapes of Millers teams. Then as you all know, we fell hard. There were some VERY rough years. It is great to know that we can potentially have hope to win almost any game (also major anxiety that we can lose any game This month has been a very difficult month for me personally, I lost my cousin's son due to a car accident so sports are secondary to me at this time. He was a huge Washington State fan and a great HS basketball player, and one thing I always admired about him was is constant optimism of WSU sports. The win at Stanford was such a great distraction for me personally, especially about learning the tragic news. This 3 and 7 Conference start has been very hard on me especially after defeating Colorado and Arizona. I took a break from the board because of what happened to my cousin and the losing is hard to take that, no offense, I cannot stand reading this board after a loss. I get everyones frustration as well. However, I am not giving up on this team and staff yet. Yes, if this and possibly next years spirals down out of control, I feel that a change in leadership is warranted. If it does, I will always remember WT's tenure here as a positive one, especially ending the NCAA Tourney Drought. In addition, it won't change my opinion on WT and his class. You can say that 2015-16 may have been a fluke all you want, it is your opinion, but to me it is my favorite memory EVER of being a Beaver Basketball fan. They battled through adversity, had some clutch wins, and made me believe that anything is possible. I can't speak for all of you but I will be at Gill Saturday and all the games the rest of the year and cheer as hard as I can to help this team. If we can play focused basketball for 40 minutes, than I feel that we can make a huge run in the next 8 conference games. Believe
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Post by baseba1111 on Feb 6, 2020 11:32:11 GMT -8
I think Wayne is a good coach and a great ambassador for Oregon State University. After his first two seasons, Wayne totally exceeded expectations and put us on the map. Btw, the Tournament season was a huge accomplishment and not an anomaly. Give credit where credit was due. WT led a team of talented freshmen, a program changing player GP2, and solid role-playing veterans to earn a 7 SEED in 2016. Then we hit the 5 win abyss the following year due to injuries, etc. As a lifelong Beaver Fan who never misses a minute (harder now that I have 17 month twins. , that will always be a special year for me. I remember joining a bracket pool and picking the Beavs to go all the way in 16, since I promised it for years. HAHA. I was always sad around tournament time when the Beavers were never close to making the bracket. Despite the positivity, the results as of late are not what I expected. I have watched Beaver Basketball all my life. My first memories were of Ralph's final years and we had tons of tapes of Millers teams. Then as you all know, we fell hard. There were some VERY rough years. It is great to know that we can potentially have hope to win almost any game (also major anxiety that we can lose any game This month has been a very difficult month for me personally, I lost my cousin's son due to a car accident so sports are secondary to me at this time. He was a huge Washington State fan and a great HS basketball player, and one thing I always admired about him was is constant optimism of WSU sports. The win at Stanford was such a great distraction for me personally, especially about learning the tragic news. This 3 and 7 Conference start has been very hard on me especially after defeating Colorado and Arizona. I took a break from the board because of what happened to my cousin and the losing is hard to take that, no offense, I cannot stand reading this board after a loss. I get everyones frustration as well. However, I am not giving up on this team and staff yet. Yes, if this and possibly next years spirals down out of control, I feel that a change in leadership is warranted. If it does, I will always remember WT's tenure here as a positive one, especially ending the NCAA Tourney Drought. In addition, it won't change my opinion on WT and his class. You can say that 2015-16 may have been a fluke all you want, it is your opinion, but to me it is my favorite memory EVER of being a Beaver Basketball fan. They battled through adversity, had some clutch wins, and made me believe that anything is possible. I can't speak for all of you but I will be at Gill Saturday and all the games the rest of the year and cheer as hard as I can to help this team. If we can play focused basketball for 40 minutes, than I feel that we can make a huge run in the next 8 conference games. Believe I'm sorry for your loss. The tourney season is a anomaly for exactly reasons you state. WT didn't lead the team, GPII did. The 7 seed was the selection committee, not WT. And... in totality a WT team has never been close to that selection again with only his recruits. All on this board "believe", it's why we're here on an OSU message board. But, some actually see they less orange tint. This coach is barely better than the often disparaged CR and that's with three built in 4* recruits (some folks had ET almost a 5*). You shouldn't need 4 (plus now) additional seasons to be postseason eligible again IF you can recruit and develop players. Especially in a down Pac12. Keep believing, we all do. And, many are tired of it just being "hope".
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Post by Judge Smails on Feb 6, 2020 12:01:11 GMT -8
I think Wayne is a good coach and a great ambassador for Oregon State University. After his first two seasons, Wayne totally exceeded expectations and put us on the map. Btw, the Tournament season was a huge accomplishment and not an anomaly. Give credit where credit was due. WT led a team of talented freshmen, a program changing player GP2, and solid role-playing veterans to earn a 7 SEED in 2016. Then we hit the 5 win abyss the following year due to injuries, etc. As a lifelong Beaver Fan who never misses a minute (harder now that I have 17 month twins. , that will always be a special year for me. I remember joining a bracket pool and picking the Beavs to go all the way in 16, since I promised it for years. HAHA. I was always sad around tournament time when the Beavers were never close to making the bracket. Despite the positivity, the results as of late are not what I expected. I have watched Beaver Basketball all my life. My first memories were of Ralph's final years and we had tons of tapes of Millers teams. Then as you all know, we fell hard. There were some VERY rough years. It is great to know that we can potentially have hope to win almost any game (also major anxiety that we can lose any game This month has been a very difficult month for me personally, I lost my cousin's son due to a car accident so sports are secondary to me at this time. He was a huge Washington State fan and a great HS basketball player, and one thing I always admired about him was is constant optimism of WSU sports. The win at Stanford was such a great distraction for me personally, especially about learning the tragic news. This 3 and 7 Conference start has been very hard on me especially after defeating Colorado and Arizona. I took a break from the board because of what happened to my cousin and the losing is hard to take that, no offense, I cannot stand reading this board after a loss. I get everyones frustration as well. However, I am not giving up on this team and staff yet. Yes, if this and possibly next years spirals down out of control, I feel that a change in leadership is warranted. If it does, I will always remember WT's tenure here as a positive one, especially ending the NCAA Tourney Drought. In addition, it won't change my opinion on WT and his class. You can say that 2015-16 may have been a fluke all you want, it is your opinion, but to me it is my favorite memory EVER of being a Beaver Basketball fan. They battled through adversity, had some clutch wins, and made me believe that anything is possible. I can't speak for all of you but I will be at Gill Saturday and all the games the rest of the year and cheer as hard as I can to help this team. If we can play focused basketball for 40 minutes, than I feel that we can make a huge run in the next 8 conference games. Believe I'm sorry for your loss. The tourney season is a anomaly for exactly reasons you state. WT didn't lead the team, GPII did. The 7 seed was the selection committee, not WT. And... in totality a WT team has never been close to that selection again with only his recruits. All on this board "believe", it's why we're here on an OSU message board. But, some actually see they less orange tint. This coach is barely better than the often disparaged CR and that's with three built in 4* recruits (some folks had ET almost a 5*). You shouldn't need 4 (plus now) additional seasons to be postseason eligible again IF you can recruit and develop players. Especially in a down Pac12. Keep believing, we all do. And, many are tired of it just being "hope". The Fiesta Bowl football team was also an anomaly. Still counts.
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bill82
Freshman
OSU's 10,157th Best Donor
Posts: 962
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Post by bill82 on Feb 6, 2020 13:36:32 GMT -8
I'm coming to the mind that we let him coach until he quits. I like how that worked out with Mr. Big Boy Pants. I'm counting on some measure of self-respect, and not a scandal.
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Post by gnawitall on Feb 6, 2020 13:41:34 GMT -8
I'm coming to the mind that we let him coach until he quits. I like how that worked out with Mr. Big Boy Pants. I'm counting on some measure of self-respect, and not a scandal. At some point his conscience has to kick in that he's stealing.
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Feb 6, 2020 13:52:33 GMT -8
I'm coming to the mind that we let him coach until he quits. I like how that worked out with Mr. Big Boy Pants. I'm counting on some measure of self-respect, and not a scandal. At some point his conscience has to kick in that he's stealing. Please define stealing. He's the 9th highest paid coach in the league this year and the team finished tied for 4th last year. This season isn't over. Is he automatically "stealing" if the team finishes below 9th? Is he stealing any time he doesn't make a post season tournament? Just what constitutes stealing? watchstadium.com/college-basketball-coaching-salary-and-buyout-database-for-2019-20-season-10-24-2019/The coaching salaries of USC and Stanford are not included in the above link, must be the private school thing. Their coaches are paid substantially above Tinkle.
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Post by spudbeaver on Feb 6, 2020 14:06:50 GMT -8
I'm coming to the mind that we let him coach until he quits. I like how that worked out with Mr. Big Boy Pants. I'm counting on some measure of self-respect, and not a scandal. I think the flaw in thinking there is that Wayne Tinkle seems to be a good person!
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Post by spudbeaver on Feb 6, 2020 14:07:32 GMT -8
I'm coming to the mind that we let him coach until he quits. I like how that worked out with Mr. Big Boy Pants. I'm counting on some measure of self-respect, and not a scandal. At some point his conscience has to kick in that he's stealing. Not really, if he is doing the best that he can. Which I believe is the case.
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Post by gnawitall on Feb 6, 2020 14:18:13 GMT -8
Some on the board point out making the tourney the one year but has mbb even sniffed the NIT? That's probably more telling than not making the tournament. Hell, make someone else a millionaire for mediocrity. Might as well spread the wealth.
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Post by beaverinohio on Feb 6, 2020 14:46:49 GMT -8
My question to those that say MBB was so bad for 30 years and WT has improved upon that is for how long is that argument acceptable? If over the next 3 years, OSU has 2 seasons similar to this one and 1 like last year, are you still fine with that argument? At what point (if any) even with the past is mediocre to decent not good enough? Because that is what the team has been — with two outlier seasons. Always a risk when you make a change, but not sure that risk is larger than the status quo and falling back into another down 30 years because WT really hasn’t shown much in the way of recruitment or player development. And for those who say, “well who would we get instead” I say there are plenty of coaches that could do as well or better. Since WT will likely get another year, I hope Barnes is compiling a list and doing his due diligence. One name that has recently intrigued me is David Patrick at UC Riverside. He was an ace recruiter as an assistant, and UC-R is his first HC gig. In his two years his overall record isn’t good, but he currently has them at 14 wins and above .500 in conference. So? Well since 2001 they’ve had only 4 seasons with 14 or more wins (14 thrice and 17 once) and have never finished above .500 in conference. Given that WT likely gets at least 1 more season, I’ll be keeping my eye on UC-R this year and next. Oh, and did I mention Patrick is an ace recruiter? This post got me thinking just a bit... WT's Beavers have out performed about two and a half decades of Beaver teams. It's really tough to argue they haven't. The Beaver team hasn't performed to the level that fans want though. Does that mean he should be fired? OSU basketball history says firings are not a fix. Now back to the first question of your post, "how long is that argument acceptable?". I'm a firm believer in the phrase "If you ain't growing, you're dying", and with the exception of year three I think the Beaver program was growing. 4 out of 5 is quite acceptable in my opinion, frankly I find it pretty good all things considered. Compared to the previous regimes, this team has been growing (thus far), and hasn't yet shown that it's dying. Now we have a year, which is not over and could go either way. I also feel that any time you are "growing" it is possible to take "two steps forward, one step back" a time or two before you get where you're going. In that regards, 4 out of 6 really isn't all that bad and not a surprise. Success doesn't always happen overnight. Amazon took 9 years, Fedex 12 and Tesla 10 to turn their first profits, and they all had their trials along the way. What they had in common was they stuck with it and their businesses were growing, despite some setbacks. Now some will say "this is sports, not a business", to that I say college sports is a business. Lots of businesses struggle to keep afloat for a number of years then they either finally get over the hump or they go down in flames fairly bigtime... This season we've seen some exciting wins, and some disappointing losses. It's a little too early to accurately predict the team's season record. I truly feel if the team is going down in flames, it'll be obvious, and I don't think it's obvious just yet. It was obvious with the past several coaches. I can't see getting rid of the most successful coach of the last 30 years until it's obvious the program is tanking. There were litterally 2 or 3 seasons at the end of Ralph Miller's tenure that there were numerous letters to the editor in the Oregonian begging for the firing of Ralph Miller because "he's a dinosaur" and the Beaver's were heading towards mediocrity and such (perhaps some of those letter writers are on this board if they are still alive?), yet his teams were actually getting into the NCAA tourney most years. Change for the sake of change hasn't produced good results for OSU's basketball program in a long time. As far as I can tell, for as long as most (or perhaps all) of us have been alive, OSU has never fired a men's basketball coach and replaced him with a coach who made the team great. Trying to do that now may be much more difficult or disappointing than expected. I figure if a simple coaching change will take the team from "mediocre" to greatness, then we might as well see an actual bad season or two in a row before making that coaching change. If the team is going down hill, it'll likely tank and tank fast and then it'll be obvious a change needs to be made. When they make a change, whenever that is, it'll likely take an overall change in how the athletic department treats men's basketball to actually make a real positive difference, too bad they are likely to not make that change first. I think the disconnect among many on here is some like you feel getting rid of WT would be "change for the sake of change," while others who feel a change should be made whether after this year or after a coming year (assuming no big turnaround) feel it is warranted and not just for the sake of change. And I realize that what I post is not going to change your mind on the subject. We just look at this differently I suppose. But I did find your first paragraph interesting in that you say WT's Beavers have out performed 25 years of Beaver teams, but then say "OSU basketball history says firings are not a fix." Seems to me you just made the case for it -- unless unlike I thought CR retired or quit. As to your "ain't growing, you're dying" stance, we definitely have a different definition of growing. I'm assuming when you say the Beaver program was growing 4 out of 5 years that you are strictly looking at win/loss and thus the 5 win year was the only year the program wasn't growing. I think that is a bit disingenuous. So if the team had won 8 games in 2017-18 you would have counted that as growth? Or if the team had one less win in the year following the tourney bid but again went to the tourney that wouldn't be "growth"? I believe you have to look at things in total. It would have been very difficult for the Beavers not to win more games in 2017-18 than the previous year. But that "program growing" 2017-18 team didn't even make it back to the level of WT's first team (though close) and finished 10th in conference. So not really sure how that can be seen as growth except in the simplest terms. Then there is the whole recruiting and roster make up side of things. In his second year, WT brought in the conference's 5th ranked recruiting class (21st nationally) and got the team into the tourney. He has parlayed that into classes ranked 8, 9, 10, 9 in the conference. And yes, I know stars and ratings aren't everything, but I think most would have difficulty saying that is growth. I believe like many (some?) that WT's Beaver teams are for the most part an improvement over the previous 25 years if for no other reason than he was the coach for the tourney team. For that I thank WT. But like the year following his 5-win season, the bar for improvement wasn't very high. And making the NCAA tourney once shouldn't give you a lifetime job. Which brings me back to my original question. At what point does the argument "WT's Beavers have out performed about two and a half decades of Beaver teams" run out of steam if the team isn't "growing"? Theoretically, this year's team could finish with a better conference record than last year's, but I think even the most optimistic might find that out of reach. So let's say they go 5-3 the rest of the way (still pretty optimistic, but isn't that part of being a fan) and finish 8-10 in conference. Next year, even achieving that seems unlikely given that the last time the Beavers had a season without Tres they won 1 conference game (and that team had Stevie and Drew). But let's be optimistic again and say 7-11 in conference. That would mean at the end of next season, the team would be 5 years removed from a tourney bid and only 1 winning conference record. Is it OK then to start thinking about moving on from WT? Well one could say, how do you know how that is going to play out? I'm not, but I'd say that very well may be best case scenario. And to me that is depressing.
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Feb 6, 2020 15:37:10 GMT -8
This post got me thinking just a bit... WT's Beavers have out performed about two and a half decades of Beaver teams. It's really tough to argue they haven't. The Beaver team hasn't performed to the level that fans want though. Does that mean he should be fired? OSU basketball history says firings are not a fix. Now back to the first question of your post, "how long is that argument acceptable?". I'm a firm believer in the phrase "If you ain't growing, you're dying", and with the exception of year three I think the Beaver program was growing. 4 out of 5 is quite acceptable in my opinion, frankly I find it pretty good all things considered. Compared to the previous regimes, this team has been growing (thus far), and hasn't yet shown that it's dying. Now we have a year, which is not over and could go either way. I also feel that any time you are "growing" it is possible to take "two steps forward, one step back" a time or two before you get where you're going. In that regards, 4 out of 6 really isn't all that bad and not a surprise. Success doesn't always happen overnight. Amazon took 9 years, Fedex 12 and Tesla 10 to turn their first profits, and they all had their trials along the way. What they had in common was they stuck with it and their businesses were growing, despite some setbacks. Now some will say "this is sports, not a business", to that I say college sports is a business. Lots of businesses struggle to keep afloat for a number of years then they either finally get over the hump or they go down in flames fairly bigtime... This season we've seen some exciting wins, and some disappointing losses. It's a little too early to accurately predict the team's season record. I truly feel if the team is going down in flames, it'll be obvious, and I don't think it's obvious just yet. It was obvious with the past several coaches. I can't see getting rid of the most successful coach of the last 30 years until it's obvious the program is tanking. There were litterally 2 or 3 seasons at the end of Ralph Miller's tenure that there were numerous letters to the editor in the Oregonian begging for the firing of Ralph Miller because "he's a dinosaur" and the Beaver's were heading towards mediocrity and such (perhaps some of those letter writers are on this board if they are still alive?), yet his teams were actually getting into the NCAA tourney most years. Change for the sake of change hasn't produced good results for OSU's basketball program in a long time. As far as I can tell, for as long as most (or perhaps all) of us have been alive, OSU has never fired a men's basketball coach and replaced him with a coach who made the team great. Trying to do that now may be much more difficult or disappointing than expected. I figure if a simple coaching change will take the team from "mediocre" to greatness, then we might as well see an actual bad season or two in a row before making that coaching change. If the team is going down hill, it'll likely tank and tank fast and then it'll be obvious a change needs to be made. When they make a change, whenever that is, it'll likely take an overall change in how the athletic department treats men's basketball to actually make a real positive difference, too bad they are likely to not make that change first. I think the disconnect among many on here is some like you feel getting rid of WT would be "change for the sake of change," while others who feel a change should be made whether after this year or after a coming year (assuming no big turnaround) feel it is warranted and not just for the sake of change. And I realize that what I post is not going to change your mind on the subject. We just look at this differently I suppose. But I did find your first paragraph interesting in that you say WT's Beavers have out performed 25 years of Beaver teams, but then say "OSU basketball history says firings are not a fix." Seems to me you just made the case for it -- unless unlike I thought CR retired or quit. As to your "ain't growing, you're dying" stance, we definitely have a different definition of growing. I'm assuming when you say the Beaver program was growing 4 out of 5 years that you are strictly looking at win/loss and thus the 5 win year was the only year the program wasn't growing. I think that is a bit disingenuous. So if the team had won 8 games in 2017-18 you would have counted that as growth? Or if the team had one less win in the year following the tourney bid but again went to the tourney that wouldn't be "growth"? I believe you have to look at things in total. It would have been very difficult for the Beavers not to win more games in 2017-18 than the previous year. But that "program growing" 2017-18 team didn't even make it back to the level of WT's first team (though close) and finished 10th in conference. So not really sure how that can be seen as growth except in the simplest terms. Then there is the whole recruiting and roster make up side of things. In his second year, WT brought in the conference's 5th ranked recruiting class (21st nationally) and got the team into the tourney. He has parlayed that into classes ranked 8, 9, 10, 9 in the conference. And yes, I know stars and ratings aren't everything, but I think most would have difficulty saying that is growth. I believe like many (some?) that WT's Beaver teams are for the most part an improvement over the previous 25 years if for no other reason than he was the coach for the tourney team. For that I thank WT. But like the year following his 5-win season, the bar for improvement wasn't very high. And making the NCAA tourney once shouldn't give you a lifetime job. Which brings me back to my original question. At what point does the argument "WT's Beavers have out performed about two and a half decades of Beaver teams" run out of steam if the team isn't "growing"? Theoretically, this year's team could finish with a better conference record than last year's, but I think even the most optimistic might find that out of reach. So let's say they go 5-3 the rest of the way (still pretty optimistic, but isn't that part of being a fan) and finish 8-10 in conference. Next year, even achieving that seems unlikely given that the last time the Beavers had a season without Tres they won 1 conference game (and that team had Stevie and Drew). But let's be optimistic again and say 7-11 in conference. That would mean at the end of next season, the team would be 5 years removed from a tourney bid and only 1 winning conference record. Is it OK then to start thinking about moving on from WT? Well one could say, how do you know how that is going to play out? I'm not, but I'd say that very well may be best case scenario. And to me that is depressing. I'd like to see an actual downward trend of a couple years or completely losing the team to where it's obviously spiraling downwards before firing the guy. Finishing 4th in the league and having 3 or 4 frustrating losses (so far) the following season is not a reason to can a guy. It needs to be revisited after the season. Robinson was fired, but I don't think it was his record, it was a matter of him totally losing the team at the end of his tenure. It was obvious it was time for him to move on. Thst could in theory happen to Tinkle, but it hasn't yet. Robinson's firing improved the team to a degree, didn't make it great. In my earlier post I said no firing had made OSU a great team. OSU has had their best successes with long term coaches, many didn't have great success until years into their tenure. I think we shouldn't fire a guy simply because they haven't achieved greatness, it should be because of failure to remain competitive.
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