billsaab
Freshman
Retired. Live in SW Washington on 73/4 Acres.
Posts: 589
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Post by billsaab on Feb 5, 2020 13:03:33 GMT -8
Clarification. I know how Jimmy did the last 2 years. He had Payton. Than with Ernest Killam deal it all went South.
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Feb 5, 2020 13:15:44 GMT -8
My question to those that say MBB was so bad for 30 years and WT has improved upon that is for how long is that argument acceptable? If over the next 3 years, OSU has 2 seasons similar to this one and 1 like last year, are you still fine with that argument? At what point (if any) even with the past is mediocre to decent not good enough? Because that is what the team has been — with two outlier seasons. Always a risk when you make a change, but not sure that risk is larger than the status quo and falling back into another down 30 years because WT really hasn’t shown much in the way of recruitment or player development. And for those who say, “well who would we get instead” I say there are plenty of coaches that could do as well or better. Since WT will likely get another year, I hope Barnes is compiling a list and doing his due diligence. One name that has recently intrigued me is David Patrick at UC Riverside. He was an ace recruiter as an assistant, and UC-R is his first HC gig. In his two years his overall record isn’t good, but he currently has them at 14 wins and above .500 in conference. So? Well since 2001 they’ve had only 4 seasons with 14 or more wins (14 thrice and 17 once) and have never finished above .500 in conference. Given that WT likely gets at least 1 more season, I’ll be keeping my eye on UC-R this year and next. Oh, and did I mention Patrick is an ace recruiter? This post got me thinking just a bit... WT's Beavers have out performed about two and a half decades of Beaver teams. It's really tough to argue they haven't. The Beaver team hasn't performed to the level that fans want though. Does that mean he should be fired? OSU basketball history says firings are not a fix. Now back to the first question of your post, "how long is that argument acceptable?". I'm a firm believer in the phrase "If you ain't growing, you're dying", and with the exception of year three I think the Beaver program was growing. 4 out of 5 is quite acceptable in my opinion, frankly I find it pretty good all things considered. Compared to the previous regimes, this team has been growing (thus far), and hasn't yet shown that it's dying. Now we have a year, which is not over and could go either way. I also feel that any time you are "growing" it is possible to take "two steps forward, one step back" a time or two before you get where you're going. In that regards, 4 out of 6 really isn't all that bad and not a surprise. Success doesn't always happen overnight. Amazon took 9 years, Fedex 12 and Tesla 10 to turn their first profits, and they all had their trials along the way. What they had in common was they stuck with it and their businesses were growing, despite some setbacks. Now some will say "this is sports, not a business", to that I say college sports is a business. Lots of businesses struggle to keep afloat for a number of years then they either finally get over the hump or they go down in flames fairly bigtime... This season we've seen some exciting wins, and some disappointing losses. It's a little too early to accurately predict the team's season record. I truly feel if the team is going down in flames, it'll be obvious, and I don't think it's obvious just yet. It was obvious with the past several coaches. I can't see getting rid of the most successful coach of the last 30 years until it's obvious the program is tanking. There were litterally 2 or 3 seasons at the end of Ralph Miller's tenure that there were numerous letters to the editor in the Oregonian begging for the firing of Ralph Miller because "he's a dinosaur" and the Beaver's were heading towards mediocrity and such (perhaps some of those letter writers are on this board if they are still alive?), yet his teams were actually getting into the NCAA tourney most years. Change for the sake of change hasn't produced good results for OSU's basketball program in a long time. As far as I can tell, for as long as most (or perhaps all) of us have been alive, OSU has never fired a men's basketball coach and replaced him with a coach who made the team great. Trying to do that now may be much more difficult or disappointing than expected. I figure if a simple coaching change will take the team from "mediocre" to greatness, then we might as well see an actual bad season or two in a row before making that coaching change. If the team is going down hill, it'll likely tank and tank fast and then it'll be obvious a change needs to be made. When they make a change, whenever that is, it'll likely take an overall change in how the athletic department treats men's basketball to actually make a real positive difference, too bad they are likely to not make that change first.
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gnawitall
Sophomore
Posts: 2,149
Member is Online
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Post by gnawitall on Feb 5, 2020 13:58:42 GMT -8
I sure hope the coaches kids are getting huge allowances from their pa's because they are the only reason this staff is still afloat.
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billsaab
Freshman
Retired. Live in SW Washington on 73/4 Acres.
Posts: 589
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Post by billsaab on Feb 5, 2020 14:06:49 GMT -8
Some of You guys will accept mediocre basketball. Since we are not relevant than it matters little. Like I said earlier it is more than Basketball team and even who the coach is. We simply are blah at recruiting and blah to watch. I was excited last year and followed closely. The PAC 12 tournament results destroyed the little progress made. Back to not being relevant. Truth is I do not even listen anymore. Every time I do they tend to lose to bad bad teams.
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Post by baseba1111 on Feb 5, 2020 15:21:08 GMT -8
Continually harping on the past and changes made then have ZERO to do with the state of the program in the present, especially when compared to the conference and results in recruiting, player development, and winning. It's one of the lamest excuses ever. Let's not expect better because the past was so bad... is that the philosophy? So, as someone mentioned WT can continue to schedule weak NC games so he can win 16-19 games overall, be under .500 in Pac12 play, recruit at the bottom 3rd of the conference, and it's ok cuz of the past?
I'm not sure how living in the past makes some feel better about the present? And, I am continually amazed how actual coaching acumen, recruiting, loss of recruits, inconsistent play, lack of player focus, etc, etc is always excused away because of what happened before.
And, the "support" issue is invalid also. OSU has far and away above average D1 hoops facilities... court, locker rooms, practice facility, offices. It has a solid academic staff. It pays it's HC in the top 12% of all 353 D1 hoop schools. Using support as an excuse for WT's results is also folly. If he was having the success of the top 12%/top 39-40 teams we'd be ecstatic. Hell if he was in the Top 60-75 in terms of success we'd have to have other topics on the hoops board. You know... like how mediocre MR was... that going to the NIT every so often is unacceptable, it needs to be the NCAA!
Hell... The past and support... we're doomed with WT... screw extensions... LIFETIME contract!
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Post by spudbeaver on Feb 5, 2020 15:29:24 GMT -8
Some of You guys will accept mediocre basketball. Since we are not relevant than it matters little. Like I said earlier it is more than Basketball team and even who the coach is. We simply are blah at recruiting and blah to watch. I was excited last year and followed closely. The PAC 12 tournament results destroyed the little progress made. Back to not being relevant. Truth is I do not even listen anymore. Every time I do they tend to lose to bad bad teams. Like Leroy Brown.
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Post by spudbeaver on Feb 5, 2020 15:33:08 GMT -8
Continually harping on the past and changes made then have ZERO to do with the state of the program in the present, especially when compared to the conference and results in recruiting, player development, and winning. It's one of the lamest excuses ever. Let's not expect better because the past was so bad... is that the philosophy? So, as someone mentioned WT can continue to schedule weak NC games so he can win 16-19 games overall, be under .500 in Pac12 play, recruit at the bottom 3rd of the conference, and it's ok cuz of the past? I'm not sure how living in the past makes some feel better about the present? And, I am continually amazed how actual coaching acumen, recruiting, loss of recruits, inconsistent play, lack of player focus, etc, etc is always excused away because of what happened before. Hell... screw extensions... LIFETIME contract! I agree. During the Robinson era I posted that he did a good job of getting us out of the cellar, but I think he pretty much reached his ceiling at Oregon State as a coach. I said there's nothing wrong with saying thank you, you got us headed and the right direction, but we think we need somebody else to take us to the next level that we want to be at. I think I can say I feel the post is still accurate now with a different coach. I think Coach Tinkle is topped out here. Time for both to move on.
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Post by lebaneaver on Feb 5, 2020 16:26:43 GMT -8
I don’t think we lack talent.....next year may be a different story...... Tink isn’t a bad coach, imho, he’s simply not a good to great coach. This group of talent with good coaching IS NCAA caliber. The talent is there, but at times they look lost. I will say Coach Tinkle is a hard worker and good representative for the university. Winning isn’t as important to me as it once was. I fear we could do worse and not sure we could do better.
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Post by Judge Smails on Feb 5, 2020 16:32:37 GMT -8
Continually harping on the past and changes made then have ZERO to do with the state of the program in the present, especially when compared to the conference and results in recruiting, player development, and winning. It's one of the lamest excuses ever. Let's not expect better because the past was so bad... is that the philosophy? So, as someone mentioned WT can continue to schedule weak NC games so he can win 16-19 games overall, be under .500 in Pac12 play, recruit at the bottom 3rd of the conference, and it's ok cuz of the past? I'm not sure how living in the past makes some feel better about the present? And, I am continually amazed how actual coaching acumen, recruiting, loss of recruits, inconsistent play, lack of player focus, etc, etc is always excused away because of what happened before. Hell... screw extensions... LIFETIME contract! I agree. During the Robinson era I posted that he did a good job of getting us out of the cellar, but I think he pretty much reached his ceiling at Oregon State as a coach. I said there's nothing wrong with saying thank you, you got us headed and the right direction, but we think we need somebody else to take us to the next level that we want to be at. I think I can say I feel the post is still accurate now with a different coach. I think Coach Tinkle is topped out here. Time for both to move on. Maybe when we are ready to fire him, we can hire Robinson to do it and just yell "move" at him over and over until he leaves.
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Post by baseba1111 on Feb 5, 2020 16:37:31 GMT -8
I agree. During the Robinson era I posted that he did a good job of getting us out of the cellar, but I think he pretty much reached his ceiling at Oregon State as a coach. I said there's nothing wrong with saying thank you, you got us headed and the right direction, but we think we need somebody else to take us to the next level that we want to be at. I think I can say I feel the post is still accurate now with a different coach. I think Coach Tinkle is topped out here. Time for both to move on. Maybe when we are ready to fire him, we can hire Robinson to do it and just yell "move" at him over and over until he leaves. Maybe GAG can influence him on leaving millions behind... without of course WT becoming the creep to make it a mandatory move.
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Post by Judge Smails on Feb 5, 2020 16:42:02 GMT -8
Maybe when we are ready to fire him, we can hire Robinson to do it and just yell "move" at him over and over until he leaves. Maybe GAG can influence him on leaving millions behind... without of course WT becoming the creep to make it a mandatory move. I was so hoping Tinks would succeed. A very nice man who represents the university well and is actively involved in the community (something Robinson never embraced). But as the poster said earlier, I think he is a average to slightly above average coach who is a below average recruiter. Robinson was a an above average recruiter and a below average coach. Together, you get similar results. As I think it is going to be harder to get high level recruits, we are going to need to find a good coach who is very good at player development. We haven't found one in the last 30 years, so odds are we are due to luck into one.
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Post by spudbeaver on Feb 5, 2020 18:11:14 GMT -8
I agree. During the Robinson era I posted that he did a good job of getting us out of the cellar, but I think he pretty much reached his ceiling at Oregon State as a coach. I said there's nothing wrong with saying thank you, you got us headed and the right direction, but we think we need somebody else to take us to the next level that we want to be at. I think I can say I feel the post is still accurate now with a different coach. I think Coach Tinkle is topped out here. Time for both to move on. Maybe when we are ready to fire him, we can hire Robinson to do it and just yell "move" at him over and over until he leaves. I said the NEXT step, not a step backward!!
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Feb 5, 2020 21:33:16 GMT -8
I've seen a few people say WT schedules weak non-conference games. Does HE really make our schedule? Does whoever makes the schedule sit down and decide our opponents that went to the tournament within the last year or two are going to have a bad season this year? Just curious.
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Post by Henry Skrimshander on Feb 5, 2020 23:31:18 GMT -8
Our OOC schedules under Wayne have been roughly equivalent to those played by previous coaches, especially since the demise of the Far West Classic, which began going downhill in the late 1980s. Neither Ralph, Jimmy, Eddie Payne, McKay, John or Robinson played an particularly demanding OOC, especially once we stopped making return trips to P5 schools in exchange for a FWC appearance.
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Post by OSUprof on Feb 6, 2020 8:08:45 GMT -8
Tinkle has now coached in 100 conference games. His teams have won 38 of them.
At the 100 conference game mark, Robinson's teams won 36 of them.
A two game difference in 100 games played. That's a negligible difference. Besides, the conference is weaker during the run of Tinkle than that of Robinson. So conference records are a wash.
How about overall records? Tinkle is at 0.489 so far in his 6th season. Robinson was 0.481 at the exact same spot in his 6th season. In other words, Tinkle's teams are winning roughly 49 games out of every 100 played while Robinson's teams won roughly 48 games out of every 100 played. A 1 win difference. That's a wash.
How about fan interest? Tinkle's team's are drawing an average 217 more fans per game than Robinson's teams across 6 seasons. That's despite season ticket sales incentives that were not given during the Robinson era.
Looking past the numbers, do you see a cohesive underlying offensive or defensive philosophy, that he's imparting to his players through coaching? Or that his teams are strong in the fundamentals of the game?
Tinkle did have a NCAA appearance - a big accomplishment. He also recorded the only 5-win season in the past 100 years of Beaver basketball - the lowest win total of the period. That season set a record for the lowest winning percentage in OSU history at 0.156. The good is offset by the bad again here.
Some will tell you that the bad season wasn't his fault. But I'll tell you that every coach has injuries or lost recruits - and in the end it counts against the coach.
But not with Teflon Tinkle.
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