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Post by nabeav on Jan 21, 2020 11:33:12 GMT -8
Without their contributions and depth there is no dance. Thx for proving that. PS- WT did not recruit GPII. CR did. GPII and did Dad stuck with WT, but it was legacy and CR's early connection at the JC level (plus GP's potential $) that was recruiting. Giving WT credit for anything but not blowing a sure thing is ludicrous. I'm not sure what the argument is here: that Wayne never would've made the tournament without the players that he inherited? Maybe. Flip that around though: Would Craig have made the tournament had he been the coach without Wayne's recruits? Olaf was a legacy much like GPII...do we really give the CR credit for recruiting a kid whose brother played for Jay John? Do we give CR credit for convincing GPII to come to a school that his dad encouraged him to look into? If so, why do we not give Wayne credit for recruiting his son, who could've gone to a better, more established program? Why doesn't he get credit for the Thompsons? Craig's best team probably had as much or more talent than this current crop. Future NBA players in Jared Cunningham and Eric Moreland, Skilled big men in Brandt and Burton.....a solid sophomore and future pro in Roberto Nelson - A true-ish point guard in Ahmad Starks. I know your argument wasn't that Craig was a better coach than Wayne, but that seems like what this argument is turning in to. Wayne's zero year class was GPII, Chai Baker (heart condition) and Cameron Oliver (never set foot on campus) The class before was Hallice Cooke and Malcolm Duviivier - Hallice was gone before he set foot on campus. There was pretty much a two year gap in any talent right at the beginning of Wayne's tenure. That played out in the 5 win season when the old guys were gone (along with GPII) and Tinkle got hurt. I think it's reasonable to say that the recruiting at the end of the Robinson era left Wayne with very little safety net at the beginning of his run at OSU. Now, as for what happens going forward, I'm interested to see how the rest of the year plays out. This should be a postseason team. Kylor seems to have regressed, not sure what that's about. Hollins and Reichle both wildly inconsistent. Depth of this team has been eroded by defections of Bruce, Washington, McLaughlin, Kone, Wilson, etc. Blame for that has to be at least partly on the coaching staff, either for recruiting kids who weren't all in or for creating an environment where they felt they were better off elsewhere. I'm of the opinion that OSU basketball is better off now than we were when Wayne was hired. Do I think it's time to fire him? No. Do I think we could find somebody better? Sure. But I'm wary of this "Make Oregon State Basketball Great Again" idea that some posters have.
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Post by beaverinohio on Jan 21, 2020 12:01:01 GMT -8
Oh I think Rutgers pretty well matches OSU futility. Last Rutgers coach to have an overall winning record was Tom Young, and his last season was 1984-85. And you may be right about the Beavs finishing with more wins than Rutgers this year, but Rutgers certainly looks more likely to go to tourney with a NET rank of 18 versus OSU’s 67. Hope I’m wrong and Beavers go on a long winning streak, but if not that means in 6 years with very likely the 2 best players he’ll coach (and quite possibly numbers 3-5) WT will have at best 1 NCAA and 1 NIT appearance. I posted elsewhere, but, so far, in the Big Ten, Rutgers has won four home games and beat football-first Nebraska in Lincoln. Rutgers only played on Power Five team in non-conference, losing to Pittsburgh by 11. Rutgers' lone non-conference quadrant 1 or 2 victory is against Seton Hall at home. Seton Hall's claim to fame is splitting with Iowa State and losing to Michigan State by three at home. Rutgers has a neutral site loss to St. Bonaventure (quadrant 3) by six. The big differences is that Rutgers has played more conference home games and plays in a conference that is regarded as better. Otherwise, Oregon State is roughly one bad loss or one good Rutgers win apart. Well that is some world-class cherry picking. Yes, Rutgers lone road conference win is against Nebraska. Currently, the conference road record in the B1G is 6-43 (compared to 9-23 in the Pac 12). And Rutgers got the Nebraska win without their second leading scorer and arguably their best overall player Gio Baker (2nd in ppg, 1st in apg, and 2nd in spg) in the lineup. He sat out 3 games with an injury and they went 2-1 (losing to Illinois on the road). Don't get me wrong, Nebraska isn't very good this year, but every road game in the B1G this year is a battle. Just ask #19 Iowa, which lost in Lincoln. I'll also just point out that prior to this year, football-first Nebraska's basketball record over the last 5 years was 82-83, while the Beavers was 75-83. Right you are, only Power 5 team in non-conference Rutgers played is Pittsburgh and they lost. But you do realize we're talking basketball here not football. There are plenty of very good non-Power 5 teams and conferences in basketball. You might have seen Gonzaga in the NCAA Championship game not too long ago. I also seem to remember hearing that Villanova (you know, from the same conference as Seton Hall) and UConn (from The American conference) won some big tournaments fairly recently. As to Seton Hall's claim to fame. Thanks for setting me straight. I was under the assumption being ranked #10 in AP poll and 12 in NET was their claim to fame. I know it isn't their current 8 game winning streak including wins over ranked Maryland and Butler teams, and their current 6-0 in the Big East -- a non-Power 5 league that has as many ranked teams as the Pac 12. Rutgers also has a quad 3 win over Stephen F. Austin, the team that beat the then #1 Duke at Cameron. But I hope you're right and the only difference between Rutgers and Oregon St. is that Rutgers has played more conference home games and plays in a conference that is regarded as better because I don't root for Rutgers, I root for Oregon St. (and also Illinois). And the season has a long way to go and maybe the Beavs will turn out to be better than Rutgers. But at this point of the season I've seen probably 80 percent of the Beavs games and 4 Rutgers games, and if you told me that right now I had to put $1,000 on one or the other team to make the NCAA, it pains me to say but I'd choose Rutgers. And the main reason why is they have an identity -- rebounding and defense.
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Post by baseba1111 on Jan 21, 2020 12:42:10 GMT -8
Without their contributions and depth there is no dance. Thx for proving that. PS- WT did not recruit GPII. CR did. GPII and did Dad stuck with WT, but it was legacy and CR's early connection at the JC level (plus GP's potential $) that was recruiting. Giving WT credit for anything but not blowing a sure thing is ludicrous. I'm not sure what the argument is here: that Wayne never would've made the tournament without the players that he inherited? Maybe. Flip that around though: Would Craig have made the tournament had he been the coach without Wayne's recruits? Olaf was a legacy much like GPII...do we really give the CR credit for recruiting a kid whose brother played for Jay John? Do we give CR credit for convincing GPII to come to a school that his dad encouraged him to look into? If so, why do we not give Wayne credit for recruiting his son, who could've gone to a better, more established program? Why doesn't he get credit for the Thompsons? Craig's best team probably had as much or more talent than this current crop. Future NBA players in Jared Cunningham and Eric Moreland, Skilled big men in Brandt and Burton.....a solid sophomore and future pro in Roberto Nelson - A true-ish point guard in Ahmad Starks. I know your argument wasn't that Craig was a better coach than Wayne, but that seems like what this argument is turning in to. Wayne's zero year class was GPII, Chai Baker (heart condition) and Cameron Oliver (never set foot on campus) The class before was Hallice Cooke and Malcolm Duviivier - Hallice was gone before he set foot on campus. There was pretty much a two year gap in any talent right at the beginning of Wayne's tenure. That played out in the 5 win season when the old guys were gone (along with GPII) and Tinkle got hurt. I think it's reasonable to say that the recruiting at the end of the Robinson era left Wayne with very little safety net at the beginning of his run at OSU. Now, as for what happens going forward, I'm interested to see how the rest of the year plays out. This should be a postseason team. Kylor seems to have regressed, not sure what that's about. Hollins and Reichle both wildly inconsistent. Depth of this team has been eroded by defections of Bruce, Washington, McLaughlin, Kone, Wilson, etc. Blame for that has to be at least partly on the coaching staff, either for recruiting kids who weren't all in or for creating an environment where they felt they were better off elsewhere. I'm of the opinion that OSU basketball is better off now than we were when Wayne was hired. Do I think it's time to fire him? No. Do I think we could find somebody better? Sure. But I'm wary of this "Make Oregon State Basketball Great Again" idea that some posters have. The discussion rises from one of the many excuses for the state of hoops since WT took over. That being he inherited nothing. That by using the stats of CR's last year it was starting from ground zero or worse. My only point... that's completely invalid. WT may have inherited the best set of returners and all ready committed recruit than any coach since JA. They didn't suddenly become great contributors because of WT. If that was the case what has happened since? Add that two of the top frosh contributors were not really recruits in the truest since as they were coaches sons and were never going anywhere else. In fact, it was taking this job that was the only way WT coaches TT. My bet, he wasn't staying at Montana, but... So, basically my discussion is to discount the validity that WT had an empty cupboard.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Jan 21, 2020 13:00:46 GMT -8
I'm not sure what the argument is here: that Wayne never would've made the tournament without the players that he inherited? Maybe. Flip that around though: Would Craig have made the tournament had he been the coach without Wayne's recruits? Olaf was a legacy much like GPII...do we really give the CR credit for recruiting a kid whose brother played for Jay John? Do we give CR credit for convincing GPII to come to a school that his dad encouraged him to look into? If so, why do we not give Wayne credit for recruiting his son, who could've gone to a better, more established program? Why doesn't he get credit for the Thompsons? Craig's best team probably had as much or more talent than this current crop. Future NBA players in Jared Cunningham and Eric Moreland, Skilled big men in Brandt and Burton.....a solid sophomore and future pro in Roberto Nelson - A true-ish point guard in Ahmad Starks. I know your argument wasn't that Craig was a better coach than Wayne, but that seems like what this argument is turning in to. Wayne's zero year class was GPII, Chai Baker (heart condition) and Cameron Oliver (never set foot on campus) The class before was Hallice Cooke and Malcolm Duviivier - Hallice was gone before he set foot on campus. There was pretty much a two year gap in any talent right at the beginning of Wayne's tenure. That played out in the 5 win season when the old guys were gone (along with GPII) and Tinkle got hurt. I think it's reasonable to say that the recruiting at the end of the Robinson era left Wayne with very little safety net at the beginning of his run at OSU. Now, as for what happens going forward, I'm interested to see how the rest of the year plays out. This should be a postseason team. Kylor seems to have regressed, not sure what that's about. Hollins and Reichle both wildly inconsistent. Depth of this team has been eroded by defections of Bruce, Washington, McLaughlin, Kone, Wilson, etc. Blame for that has to be at least partly on the coaching staff, either for recruiting kids who weren't all in or for creating an environment where they felt they were better off elsewhere. I'm of the opinion that OSU basketball is better off now than we were when Wayne was hired. Do I think it's time to fire him? No. Do I think we could find somebody better? Sure. But I'm wary of this "Make Oregon State Basketball Great Again" idea that some posters have. The discussion rises from one of the many excuses for the state of hoops since WT took over. That being he inherited nothing. That by using the stats of CR's last year it was starting from ground zero or worse. My only point... that's completely invalid. WT may have inherited the best set of returners and all ready committed recruit than any coach since JA. They didn't suddenly become great contributors because of WT. If that was the case what has happened since? Add that two of the top frosh contributors were not really recruits in the truest since as they were coaches sons and were never going anywhere else. In fact, it was taking this job that was the only way WT coaches TT. My bet, he wasn't staying at Montana, but... So, basically my discussion is to discount the validity that WT had an empty cupboard. You're wrong. Robinson lost the team, and he was busy losing GP2. Then, they fired Robinson to save the team and GP2's recruitment. There was no one to pair with GP2 that first year. No one. Oregon State had more walk-ons than scholarship players. The team was tabbed to finish dead last by pretty much everyone. Instead, the team finished 7th. That was some great coaching right there. The Beavers got enough pieces to break into the Tourney the following year, but Tres was hurt, which meant that our run would be a short one.
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Post by baseba1111 on Jan 21, 2020 13:13:30 GMT -8
The discussion rises from one of the many excuses for the state of hoops since WT took over. That being he inherited nothing. That by using the stats of CR's last year it was starting from ground zero or worse. My only point... that's completely invalid. WT may have inherited the best set of returners and all ready committed recruit than any coach since JA. They didn't suddenly become great contributors because of WT. If that was the case what has happened since? Add that two of the top frosh contributors were not really recruits in the truest since as they were coaches sons and were never going anywhere else. In fact, it was taking this job that was the only way WT coaches TT. My bet, he wasn't staying at Montana, but... So, basically my discussion is to discount the validity that WT had an empty cupboard. You're wrong. Robinson lost the team, and he was busy losing GP2. Then, they fired Robinson to save the team and GP2's recruitment. There was no one to pair with GP2 that first year. No one. Oregon State had more walk-ons than scholarship players. The team was tabbed to finish dead last by pretty much everyone. Instead, the team finished 7th. That was some great coaching right there. The Beavers got enough pieces to break into the Tourney the following year, but Tres was hurt, which meant that our run would be a short one. Edited well after being quoted below... I'll ask... is this first hand knowledge? 2nd? Or was it based on rumor and what you may have heard over the years? All I can say is that from a 1st hand experience GP and son were all in on CR. There was a group of fans talking to GP and friends... actually he was super cool and cordial. Holding court after being mobbed by autograph seekers at an event. Later us fans saw them... the group included Steve Johnson, David Lucas, and entourage. He wasn't BSing on his thoughts... OSU program, donations, college hoops in general. Of course, what actually happened to CR and why is long past and I've heard several stories. Some that he was being manipulative and wanted more than the AD wanted to give. I've also heard that his bro-in-law connection went to his head. But in this edit I digress. It doesn't matter, he gone. WT here... and probably for a while. If you want to know how many former greats feel... take a peek at how often, if at all, they show up at Gill. Again... not sure that is a big deal as most do not live in the area and are busy with other endeavors. I do wonder how much the AD and program actually effort to have big reunions like the football program has?! Steve and David, plus friends were at University Hero before the ASU game (pretty sure, since I went there before both!) actually pondering where the program was headed. ASU outcome confirmed one of their comments! Again... I apologize for the tone and disrespect of the initial posting here.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Jan 21, 2020 13:34:16 GMT -8
You're wrong. Robinson lost the team, and he was busy losing GP2. Then, they fired Robinson to save the team and GP2's recruitment. There was no one to pair with GP2 that first year. No one. Oregon State had more walk-ons than scholarship players. The team was tabbed to finish dead last by pretty much everyone. Instead, the team finished 7th. That was some great coaching right there. The Beavers got enough pieces to break into the Tourney the following year, but Tres was hurt, which meant that our run would be a short one. I'll call your complete and total BS. GP and son were all in on CR. There was a group of fans talking to GP and friends... including Steve Johnson, David Lucas, and entourage. He wasn't BSing on his thoughts... program, donations, college hoops in general. You need to stick to what you know/find on the internet. If you want to know how many former greats feel... take a peek at how often, if at all, they show up at Gill. Steve and David, plus friends were at University Hero before the ASU game (pretty sure, since I went there before both!) actually pondering where the program was headed. ASU outcome confirmed one of their comments! I had heard that Robinson was fired, because there was a real fear that he was going to lose the recruiting class. I figured that that included GP2, but it may not have. You may have better sources in that regard.
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Post by baseba1111 on Jan 21, 2020 13:39:34 GMT -8
I'll call your complete and total BS. GP and son were all in on CR. There was a group of fans talking to GP and friends... including Steve Johnson, David Lucas, and entourage. He wasn't BSing on his thoughts... program, donations, college hoops in general. You need to stick to what you know/find on the internet. If you want to know how many former greats feel... take a peek at how often, if at all, they show up at Gill. Steve and David, plus friends were at University Hero before the ASU game (pretty sure, since I went there before both!) actually pondering where the program was headed. ASU outcome confirmed one of their comments! I had heard that Robinson was fired, because there was a real fear that he was going to lose the recruiting class. I figured that that included GP2, but it may not have. You may have better sources in that regard. Well we hear lots of things... I heard GAG was the real deal... the future of OSU football. Let's hope OSU hoops actually starts winning in a fashion similar to all praise the WT supporters give a coach 20+ games under .500 in Pac12 play.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Jan 21, 2020 13:44:29 GMT -8
I had heard that Robinson was fired, because there was a real fear that he was going to lose the recruiting class. I figured that that included GP2, but it may not have. You may have better sources in that regard. Well we hear lots of things... I heard GAG was the real deal... the future of OSU football. Let's hope OSU hoops actually starts winning in a fashion similar to all praise the WT supporters give a coach 20+ games under .500 in Pac12 play. 22 games. Six, if you take out the obvious 2016-17 aberration.
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Jan 21, 2020 13:47:27 GMT -8
You know you've run out of legitimate excuses to defend Tinkle's lack of success at OSU when you're still talking about what he inherited from the prior coach in YEAR SIX of his tenure. My comment on the Robinson recruits, or lack thereof, is strictly about year three of Tinkle's tenure. I view it as an aberration. Without it his record looks much better. He was minus 16 in the win column that season, otherwise he's just below 50% and was above it last year, with this year yet to be determined. His performance this year and last is all on him. Frankly I was ok overall with last year, frustrated with a few losses, but it was a much better brand of basketball than we've seen at OSU in a long time.
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Post by TheGlove on Jan 21, 2020 14:09:53 GMT -8
Maybe we need to hire Jim Shaw. WSU asst, former Romar asst at UW and he kicked our ass when he was the Head Coach at Western Oregon. We’ll have a HUGE list if we focus on coaches that have beat us! The truth hurts.
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Post by baseba1111 on Jan 21, 2020 15:02:28 GMT -8
Well we hear lots of things... I heard GAG was the real deal... the future of OSU football. Let's hope OSU hoops actually starts winning in a fashion similar to all praise the WT supporters give a coach 20+ games under .500 in Pac12 play. 22 games. Six, if you take out the obvious 2016-17 aberration. Responding to this post as I am just back from a workout that had me thinking. I wanted to tell you that in the interest of being less combative I'm going back to edit my reply to you above. Too late for the quote you posted, but what's wrong with the "evidence" to be left alone. Even though risking the multiple responding posts that will in and of themselves be combative, my quick triggered response was not a measured reply with any sign of respect. I apologize...
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Post by ochobeavo on Jan 21, 2020 15:09:57 GMT -8
22 games. Six, if you take out the obvious 2016-17 aberration. Responding to this post as I am just back from a workout that had me thinking. I wanted to tell you that in the interest of being less combative I'm going back to edit my reply to you. Too late for the quote you posted, but what's wrong with the "evidence" to be left alone. Even though risking the multiple responding posts that will in and of themselves be combative, my quick triggered response was not a measured reply with any sign of respect. I apologize... Wait.. 1111 just apologized and described himself as quick triggered? WUT IS HAPPENING. WHO HACKED YOUR ACCOUNT??? WHAT IS LIFE? CHANGE YOUR PASSWORDS NOW. I'm kidding... carry on my man...
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Post by baseba1111 on Jan 21, 2020 15:12:18 GMT -8
Responding to this post as I am just back from a workout that had me thinking. I wanted to tell you that in the interest of being less combative I'm going back to edit my reply to you. Too late for the quote you posted, but what's wrong with the "evidence" to be left alone. Even though risking the multiple responding posts that will in and of themselves be combative, my quick triggered response was not a measured reply with any sign of respect. I apologize... Wait.. 1111 just apologized and described himself as quick triggered? WUT IS HAPPENING. WHO HACKED YOUR ACCOUNT??? WHAT IS LIFE? CHANGE YOUR PASSWORDS NOW. I'm kidding... carry on my man... Why you effing... ohhh... wait!
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Jan 21, 2020 16:19:40 GMT -8
22 games. Six, if you take out the obvious 2016-17 aberration. Responding to this post as I am just back from a workout that had me thinking. I wanted to tell you that in the interest of being less combative I'm going back to edit my reply to you above. Too late for the quote you posted, but what's wrong with the "evidence" to be left alone. Even though risking the multiple responding posts that will in and of themselves be combative, my quick triggered response was not a measured reply with any sign of respect. I apologize... I apologize as well. We each have people that we talk to who are closer to the program. It sounds like you are speaking from the booster side of which I do not have many sources, and my sources fall to about zero outside of football. From my sources inside the Athletic Department, I can say that there were several reasons why Robinson was fired. The information that the Athletic Department was receiving from players and recruits was generally negative. And the other thing that is not talked enough about is that Robinson failed to put behinds in seats. He averaged about 3,500/game his final year. Robinson was a heck of a recruiter. It seemed like he could get talent to Corvallis. It was just that he could never do anything meaningful with that talent, and it seemed like the fans gave up on the team. A fan revolt like that really has not happened under Tinkle. There are rumblings, to be sure, but nothing as widespread as under Robinson.
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Post by baseba1111 on Jan 21, 2020 16:36:36 GMT -8
Responding to this post as I am just back from a workout that had me thinking. I wanted to tell you that in the interest of being less combative I'm going back to edit my reply to you above. Too late for the quote you posted, but what's wrong with the "evidence" to be left alone. Even though risking the multiple responding posts that will in and of themselves be combative, my quick triggered response was not a measured reply with any sign of respect. I apologize... I apologize as well. We each have people that we talk to who are closer to the program. It sounds like you are speaking from the booster side of which I do not have many sources, and my sources fall to about zero outside of football. From my sources inside the Athletic Department, I can say that there were several reasons why Robinson was fired. The information that the Athletic Department was receiving from players and recruits was generally negative. And the other thing that is not talked enough about is that Robinson failed to put behinds in seats. He averaged about 3,500/game his final year. Robinson was a heck of a recruiter. It seemed like he could get talent to Corvallis. It was just that he could never do anything meaningful with that talent, and it seemed like the fans gave up on the team. A fan revolt like that really has not happened under Tinkle. There are rumblings, to be sure, but nothing as widespread as under Robinson. To many, CR overplayed his "politics"... he was/became too glitzy/glam for Corvallis. Some boosters liked the association with "big time", but he was never a fit for OSU. Actually never thought he'd stay that long.
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