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Post by pitbeavs on May 30, 2020 9:46:07 GMT -8
Looking at the member's button, Baseba111's last check in was on April 20th at 11:13 PM, and scubasteve registered on April 21st at 12:11PM. Maybe it's a huge coinkydink, and even a bigger one that they use virtually the same arguments against Tinkle. I for one would rather talk scuba with scubasteve, as long as I don't have to explain partial pressure of oxygen or the difference between Bernouli's principle and Boyle's law, I always mess up which one is which even though I kinda understand the basics, I'm more a fan of the experience than all of the nitty gritty I guess. Now we can refer to him as scuba balls! Ball, not balls.
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Post by Judge Smails on May 30, 2020 10:31:43 GMT -8
Looking at the member's button, Baseba111's last check in was on April 20th at 11:13 PM, and scubasteve registered on April 21st at 12:11PM. Maybe it's a huge coinkydink, and even a bigger one that they use virtually the same arguments against Tinkle. I for one would rather talk scuba with scubasteve, as long as I don't have to explain partial pressure of oxygen or the difference between Bernouli's principle and Boyle's law, I always mess up which one is which even though I kinda understand the basics, I'm more a fan of the experience than all of the nitty gritty I guess. Hmmmm. Can I then add: below average in-game coaching, comical nightly tirades and frequent jacket tosses, a low level offensive scheme that lends itself to scoring droughts of 3-8+ minutes almost every game. And, I'm doubting very much you could expand my knowledge of PaO2 and the physics involved. But, be my guest I'd enjoy the "experience". It’s not the “low level offensive scheme” that leads to the droughts, it’s the execution. WT actually runs a lot of good offensive sets. The problem is the players abandoning the offense and forcing shots.
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on May 30, 2020 10:41:36 GMT -8
Looking at the member's button, Baseba111's last check in was on April 20th at 11:13 PM, and scubasteve registered on April 21st at 12:11PM. Maybe it's a huge coinkydink, and even a bigger one that they use virtually the same arguments against Tinkle. I for one would rather talk scuba with scubasteve, as long as I don't have to explain partial pressure of oxygen or the difference between Bernouli's principle and Boyle's law, I always mess up which one is which even though I kinda understand the basics, I'm more a fan of the experience than all of the nitty gritty I guess. Hmmmm. Can I then add: below average in-game coaching, comical nightly tirades and frequent jacket tosses, a low level offensive scheme that lends itself to scoring droughts of 3-8+ minutes almost every game. And, I'm doubting very much you could expand my knowledge of PaO2 and the physics involved. But, be my guest I'd enjoy the "experience". I wasn’t attempting to imply you don’t understand the physics of it, just that I don’t know it well enough to explain it and don’t want to attempt it and trip up. The “experience” I was referring to was the experience of diving itself, or the experience of watching a game, I’m not really into picking things apart and analyzing every little detail.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on May 30, 2020 14:25:53 GMT -8
Looking at the member's button, Baseba111's last check in was on April 20th at 11:13 PM, and scubasteve registered on April 21st at 12:11PM. Maybe it's a huge coinkydink, and even a bigger one that they use virtually the same arguments against Tinkle. I for one would rather talk scuba with scubasteve, as long as I don't have to explain partial pressure of oxygen or the difference between Bernouli's principle and Boyle's law, I always mess up which one is which even though I kinda understand the basics, I'm more a fan of the experience than all of the nitty gritty I guess. Hmmmm. Can I then add: below average in-game coaching, comical nightly tirades and frequent jacket tosses, a low level offensive scheme that lends itself to scoring droughts of 3-8+ minutes almost every game. And, I'm doubting very much you could expand my knowledge of PaO2 and the physics involved. But, be my guest I'd enjoy the "experience". Statistically, Oregon State had the third-best offense in the conference (behind only Arizona and Oregon). Ken Pom ranks Oregon State 39th, third-best in the conference. If teams were awarded Tournament spots based solely on offense, Oregon State is in in a laugher. The team was great in the half-court and in set plays. (Except in end-of-game, where a decent PG would have helped.) Where the team really suffered, though, was in transition, when they had to think for themselves. They were methodical and slow on offense, but they were ultimately efficient. Talking about poor offensive scheme is like complaining about the color of the rug, while the house is on fire. You can't see the forest through the trees, my friend. The other issue was translating good offensive performances into wins. Looking at pure analytics, Oregon State had a better team than Arizona State and UCLA, but the Beavers could not translate it into more wins for some reason. Ken Pom's luck metric ranks Arizona State 28th in luck (third-best in the Pac-12) and UCLA 78th in luck (fourth-best in the Pac-12). Oregon State ranks 191st in luck (seventh-best in the Pac-12. 192nd is Washington State in a dead heat with Oregon State for being unlucky. If the Beavers had the Devils' luck, they would have had a 20+ win season last year, just based on offensive and defensive ability. They did not, though. The real problem last year was defense, and it seems like the issue there was a lack of a true 1 and 4, a general lack of height and speed. I don't think that Tinkle's ability to X- and O- is the problem. The problem, inasmuch as there is a problem, is he does not have the right horses in the barn. Thus far, he has been a below-average recruiter in aggregate. That seems like the most-valid criticism. But the other side of that is that we just finished up with Craig Robinson, who was not a below average recruiter but was a dismal failure at player development, getting players to buy in, and actual coaching. So, we could fix that "problem" by switching coaches, but we stand the near certainty very strong probability that we will just make the true "problem" worse.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on May 30, 2020 14:27:39 GMT -8
It’s not the “low level offensive scheme” that leads to the droughts, it’s the execution. WT actually runs a lot of good offensive sets. The problem is the players abandoning the offense and forcing shots. Ahhhhhh so it's all the fault of players? Curious. The players WT recruits? Those he and his staff spend hundreds of hours coaching/developing? The players he recruits and develops just ignore him or are allowed to do what they want? And, I'll argue the sophistication of his system. Overall it's a basic dribble weave with some poorly run high screens. Most of the offense is isolationism resulting in many late shots/poor shot selection. I will give up the fact that after some time outs he does run some good adjustments and OB plays. However, the HC is responsible for the entirety of the program. Poor recruiting, recruits that don't take coaching, lack of execution, lack of individual player development, lack of team chemistry/bench play are all on WT. Those are not dependent on the past coaching failures. In reaching back to read posts these basic flaws have been mentioned on this board for 4+ years. WT got the job based on his success at a smaller D1 school in a much softer conference. The lack of success/OSU's hoop history had no bearing in his hiring. And, that history shouldn't have anything to do not accepting mediocrity. Of course some here don't view his Pac12 record as mediocre?! There is always a risk in hiring. There are no guarantees of the quality of person and coach that might be chosen. WT is a good guy. I've been around him and his wife in formal and informal situations as simple as chance meetings walking their dogs. He can be a bit aloof, arrogant, but again seems to be more than a solid person. For $2+ million a year OSU should expect more from the basketball coach/program. Winning is not everything, but is not mutually exclusive to having a quality person lead the program. I find it funny the dichotomy between the MBB discussions and OSU football. Similar years of no national relevance, with one great revival. And now, after a shorter extreme downturn, maybe a second. But, of course in MBB, with multitudes more coaching jobs to find a proven coach of quality, it can't be done. But, again it's a matter of opinion and what you accept from your university. I doubt most here allow "history" to dictate their expectations for any other area of their lives. At least I'm hoping not. You have successfully moved the target, abandoning your original terrible position in its entirety and moved on to a more tenable position.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on May 30, 2020 15:06:34 GMT -8
You have successfully moved the target, abandoning your original terrible position in its entirety and moved on to a more tenable position. My position has never changed. I respond to topics brought forth. In evaluating a coach there are many specific areas to discuss. In my back reading, your previous posts over the years show that you have a habit of cherry picking internet data. And many times have fallen on your sword regarding topics you had no idea of what you wrote. That data is available to all of us. We can all find data to support our opinion. But, equally obvious is your lack of intimate knowledge of athletics and its intricacies. Regurgitate all the internet data you'd like. It does save some folks time to look it up themselves. Many times it's frivolous trivia, but can be good reading during these times. However, pardon me if I ignore your critiques of my athletic/ sports opinions. Your original position was the laughable Wayne Tinkle does not know how to coach offense position. You then abandoned it wholesale for the more tenable Tinkle can't recruit position. That is a great move on your part. If I am wrong, I am man enough to admit it. Other individuals will attempt to move targets or will just keep digging, even when it is obvious that they are 100% wrong. (*Cough* skull cap *cough*cough*) As for lack of athletics and intricacies, a lot of people will start talking about eye tests, which is meaningless gobbledygook. Respectfully, you have cataracts, if you think that the offense was the problem for Oregon State last year. I am not critiquing your athletic/sports opinions. I am critiquing your argumentative discourse in this thread, which is poor. Moving on to your athletic/sports opinions.......Your opinions about basketball are generally wrong. (Your football opinions are generally well thought out. You also have some winners in baseball, when you manage to avoid trying to hearsay expert opinion in.) However, me being on the other side on basketball generally makes me feel like I am on to something.
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Post by orangeblood on May 30, 2020 17:21:41 GMT -8
If no one would respond to him, perhaps he would disappear again.
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Post by alwaysorange on May 30, 2020 20:01:50 GMT -8
Remember that year in osu basketball when two 4 star recruits left and the beavs were better the next year? You don't? Shocking.
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Post by beaverstever on May 30, 2020 21:34:56 GMT -8
That's quite a statistically relevant sample size there, genius. Ok then let's use Mike Leach at WSU. Program was a train wreck. Quickly turned it around, while MBB struggled under Bone and Kent, and this year too. Let's try Cal. Wilcox took the Bears to a bowl game quickly after the Sonny Dykes disaster. Basketball still average despite several coaching changes. How about Stanford, with Harbaugh? Turned them into a winner and they haven't looked back. Stanford basketball has been very average since Monty left. How about Wake Forest, under Dave Clawson? Vastly improved program, hoops just fired another coach who can't win there. What about Minnesota, with Row the Boat guy? Their MBB program can't get out of its own way under Pitino. What about Washington? Petersen inherited a down program that Sark had wrecked, had it in the national semifinals in Year 4 or 5, can't remember. Hopkins started fast at UW but the Huskies finished last in the Pac-12 last season, I think. How about Fresno State, under Tedford? Turned a one-win team into a MWC power in two years, while their hoops program still struggles. How about Hawaii, under Rolovich? Took over a dead program from Chow in 2015 and has been to numerous bowls. Their basketball program is average at best. I'm no genius but there are lots of examples of quick football turnarounds at places where hoops still struggles. I don't get your point ... turning around football programs can be done, of course, but it's certainly not easy. It's just math - you only need a handful of players to turn around a football program, you need 40-50 to come to your garbage program in football. Let me put it this way - were ANY of the coaches OSU has brought in for the last 30 years have the pedigree of a Tedford, Peterson (pre UW) or Leach? Not even close. How about looking around the league? What does the NCAA tournament participation look like over the last millenium: UA: 17 UCLA: 14 UO: 11 Cal: 9 Stanford: 9 USC: 8 UW: 7 Utah: 7 (2 in the Pac) Colorado: 5 (4 in the Pac) ASU: 5 WSU: 2 OSU: 1 So basically, every program except OSU and WSU has managed at least an "every 4 years" average of making the tournament in that time. Are we somehow that disadvantaged that we can't string together the stars to align periodically as well? I thought we might get there with Tinkle after he broke the streak and momentum towards getting there again trending towards the 2018 and 2019 season, but alas, was not to be.
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Post by beaverstever on May 30, 2020 21:53:23 GMT -8
Not only were no current college players alive when Ralph coached, there are parents of players today that weren't even alive when Ralph last won an NCAA postseason tournament game... We are now generations away from being relevant in MBB. What drives me crazy about it is that in the 1980s and 90s, OSU football was a similar jalopy of a program, in what should be a MUCH harder sport to turn around. Yet it was done, and looks like it will be done again. I cannot understand why OSU isn't able to consistently field a team that can make the dance every few years. Just getting into the dance is akin to getting to a decent bowl game, which Riley managed periodically over a good period of time. Are we really not abel to find at least a Mike Riley-level basketball coach over 30+ years?!! I get the feeling that we may have had a Mike Riley-level basketball coach in Ritchie McKay. But, instead of Dennis Erickson, we hired Jay John. And then, when he was fired, we hired Craig Robinson, as opposed to McKay. Mike Riley is the winningest coach in Oregon State football history. Your question is why we cannot find the greatest coach in Oregon State basketball history in a period of 25 years of seriously looking? Also, getting a Tournament invite is more akin to being a top 25 football team rather than the more nebulous "getting to a decent bowl game" standard that you set forth above. Since they started issuing rankings in 1936, Stiner finished ranked once, Prothro finished ranked twice (or three times, if you include the UPI poll), Andros finished ranked twice (or three times, if you include the UPI poll), Erickson finished ranked once, and Riley finished ranked four times (or three times, if you just use the ESPN/USA Today poll). I know this is the basketball board, but it made me twitch to see the 'winningest' coach equated to the 'greatest' coach in OSU history. 3 coaches in OSU's history have taken OSU to a BCS-tier bowl, two of which are in the Hall of Fame, and Mike Riley is not among them. I'm a MR fan and am grateful for all he did for OSU. I do not however believe he did something very few of his coaching peers could have accomplished at OSU -- had they wanted to. 66 teams make the tournament, including the play-in games. There are 32 automatic bids, but typically half of those are teams who would make the tournament anyway. So I'd say getting into the tournament is more like making the top 45-50. I do think the Pac-12 making it a pretty common habit of playing terribly in non-conference games has made it tougher to get in that ranking range, a factor that the bowl tie-ins nullify, so maybe that does tip the scales to a mid-tier bowl being a little easier. Still, it doesn't out of reach for teams in our conference except for us and the coogs.
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Post by pitbeavs on May 30, 2020 22:16:44 GMT -8
If no one would respond to him, perhaps he would disappear again. You're so naive.
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Post by beavadelic on May 31, 2020 7:29:48 GMT -8
OSU, was once a Basketball School. (Still are when you are talking WBB), but it's been 30 years since we really meant anything meaningful in men's college Basketball. The last season we were actually any kind of force was 1990 when GPI carried the team to the NCAA. This was a legendary Basketball Program until the early 90's, now we aren't even in the picture. How the university fixes this, (if in fact it could happen) I am not sure, but Wayne Tinkle is not the answer. He may be a great guy and a great dad, but he is not even a fair Basketball Coach. Just an opinion of an invested Beaver fan! Legendary? Like losing to Evansville in the first round? We were a good regular season team. We would be bitching about canning Ralph in this day and age with his crappy post season record. The one post season run he had was vacated due to NCAA violations. Losing to Lamar, K state & Evansville in the 1st round is “legendary” in the wrong kind of way. We may need a new coach, but any expectations of being a “force” in the tourney is a pipe dream at this point.
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Post by beavadelic on May 31, 2020 7:42:08 GMT -8
OSU, was once a Basketball School. (Still are when you are talking WBB), but it's been 30 years since we really meant anything meaningful in men's college Basketball. The last season we were actually any kind of force was 1990 when GPI carried the team to the NCAA. This was a legendary Basketball Program until the early 90's, now we aren't even in the picture. How the university fixes this, (if in fact it could happen) I am not sure, but Wayne Tinkle is not the answer. He may be a great guy and a great dad, but he is not even a fair Basketball Coach. Just an opinion of an invested Beaver fan! Legendary? Like losing to Evansville in the first round? We were a good regular season team. We would be bitching about canning Ralph in this day and age with his crappy post season record. The one post season run he had was vacated due to NCAA violations. Losing to Lamar, K state & Evansville in the 1st round is “legendary” in the wrong kind of way. We may need a new coach, but any expectations of being a “force” in the tourney is a pipe dream at this point. Those early exits were frustrating at times, but there was no comparison between the level of play we saw from the mid-70’s essentially through the 90 season. I know you’re not saying that our current situation is good, but don’t pretend that you wouldn’t gladly have teams of the caliber of those with Radford, Blume, Johnson, Sitton, Conner, Green, Haskins, Ortiz, and of course Payton. We were in and out of the top 20 for years, #1 for something like 12 weeks in 80-81, produced All-Americans, filled Gill to the rafters, and had a few players that were a nightmare for opposing coaches to prepare for. None of those teams were perfect, but when I left OSU in ‘81, only like 4 schools in the nation had won as many games as OSU in their history, and I believe we were still in the top 10 in the early 90’s (not certain of that). We were well beyond “relevant” - arguably THE program in the west coast for several years. The program that we have now bares no resemblance to any of that. I griped about early exits from the Big Dance in those days...what I wouldn’t give to just have a program that anyone outside of our state knew existed and just getting to the tourney - any real tourney - on a regular basis (“regular” being quite a bit more often than once eagerly 15 years)
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on May 31, 2020 9:59:11 GMT -8
I don't get your point ... turning around football programs can be done, of course, but it's certainly not easy. It's just math - you only need a handful of players to turn around a football program, you need 40-50 to come to your garbage program in football. Let me put it this way - were ANY of the coaches OSU has brought in for the last 30 years have the pedigree of a Tedford, Peterson (pre UW) or Leach? Not even close. How about looking around the league? What does the NCAA tournament participation look like over the last millenium: UA: 17 UCLA: 14 UO: 11 Cal: 9 Stanford: 9 USC: 8 UW: 7 Utah: 7 (2 in the Pac) Colorado: 5 (4 in the Pac) ASU: 5 WSU: 2 OSU: 1 So basically, every program except OSU and WSU has managed at least an "every 4 years" average of making the tournament in that time. Are we somehow that disadvantaged that we can't string together the stars to align periodically as well? I thought we might get there with Tinkle after he broke the streak and momentum towards getting there again trending towards the 2018 and 2019 season, but alas, was not to be. Considering it is just one NCAA appearance in the last 30-ish years rather than 20, maybe it's time to consider the possibility that OSU really does have some disadvantages other schools may not have. Blaming Tinkle for about thirty years of struggles isn't something I can do right now, especially when he's outperforming every other coach we've had in that time span. The "Law of averages" rule that some posters here seem to think apply to sports just doesn't exist. Some schools/cities/support bases can give a team/teams an advantage or a disadvantage over the course of time.
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Post by OSUprof on May 31, 2020 15:20:04 GMT -8
I get the feeling that we may have had a Mike Riley-level basketball coach in Ritchie McKay. But, instead of Dennis Erickson, we hired Jay John. And then, when he was fired, we hired Craig Robinson, as opposed to McKay. Mike Riley is the winningest coach in Oregon State football history. Your question is why we cannot find the greatest coach in Oregon State basketball history in a period of 25 years of seriously looking? Also, getting a Tournament invite is more akin to being a top 25 football team rather than the more nebulous "getting to a decent bowl game" standard that you set forth above. Since they started issuing rankings in 1936, Stiner finished ranked once, Prothro finished ranked twice (or three times, if you include the UPI poll), Andros finished ranked twice (or three times, if you include the UPI poll), Erickson finished ranked once, and Riley finished ranked four times (or three times, if you just use the ESPN/USA Today poll). I know this is the basketball board, but it made me twitch to see the 'winningest' coach equated to the 'greatest' coach in OSU history. 3 coaches in OSU's history have taken OSU to a BCS-tier bowl, two of which are in the Hall of Fame, and Mike Riley is not among them. I'm a MR fan and am grateful for all he did for OSU. I do not however believe he did something very few of his coaching peers could have accomplished at OSU -- had they wanted to. 66 teams make the tournament, including the play-in games. There are 32 automatic bids, but typically half of those are teams who would make the tournament anyway. So I'd say getting into the tournament is more like making the top 45-50. I do think the Pac-12 making it a pretty common habit of playing terribly in non-conference games has made it tougher to get in that ranking range, a factor that the bowl tie-ins nullify, so maybe that does tip the scales to a mid-tier bowl being a little easier. Still, it doesn't out of reach for teams in our conference except for us and the coogs. Thank you for bringing up this point. I cringe whenever I see the term "winningest" used. I'm sure the original poster understands the definition but many folks do not - they think greatest of all time when they see this word. I would like to remember Mike's time at OSU where he built competitive programs and his teams won a lot of games under difficult circumstances. But his teams also lost the most games in school history making him also the "losingest" coach. His teams won the most games in school history because he coached in more games than anyone else. He was among the most successful coaches, but he was not the most successful coach at OSU because others had higher winning percentages - this should be the true definition of winningest.
Back to basketball. Robinson is the winningest OSU basketball coach post Ralph Miller, but Tinkle has the best winning percentage in that same period. Aki Hill is the winningest WBB coach in OSU history, but Scott Rueck has the best winning percentage in school history.
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