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Post by alwaysorange on Jan 5, 2020 12:04:25 GMT -8
I long for the day making it to the dance every year win or lose. Now we can't even make the NIT
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Post by baseba1111 on Jan 5, 2020 12:08:16 GMT -8
I guess my issue is that OSU "fan", represented by a strong contingent on this board, thinks they are so much different than other fans. Winning breds arrogance and wanting more... everywhere.
MR winning 6+ games and going bowling became mediocre. Our fan base was that of UW and Oregon under their seemingly underachieving coaches. Even now with baseball, there have been statements that Mitch will have OSU in Omaha with possible NC in 2-3 seasons! Crazy to think that incredible achievements at a place like OSU are thought to become the norm. Getting teams to even the Omaha level is incredibly difficult.
OSU is a "mid major" of P5 athletics and our expectations should be high. However, what MR and PC did here was incredible. PC's accomplishments most likely will never be equaled. What SR has built in WBB also so impressive. MBB should have been better over the last 25+seasons, but many circumstances hit the program.
OSU should expect more and not "settle", but it's a fine line. As a fan, I'd love to have clean programs that treat our student athletes right and compete for the postseason regularly (3-4 years out of 5?), more in some sports.
Specifically to MBB, 4 years to build on a tourney showing with arguably nothing to show for the future. I'd have zero credence if last year's 4th place conference finish lead to a couple Pac12 tourney Ws and even an NIT berth. However, not only did a lower seed win, the Buffs destroyed OSU. Expecting more than WT's program has given isn't the "mediocre Mike" syndrome. It certainly isn't the baseball arrogance of been there, done that regularly... cuz he hasn't.
OSU should expect at least an NIT type team (that's top 100) each season, NCAA a few seasons each decade?!
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Post by seastape on Jan 5, 2020 13:10:40 GMT -8
I don't know what OSU fans should expect out of MBB, but I would like to see us have at least an average program, which I would define as realistically competing for (but not necessarily winning) the conference title 2-3 years out of every ten and hitting the NCAAs every 2-3 years out of ten and making the NIT another 2 years or so out of ten. The CBI means absolutely nothing in my book and I do not consider a tournament worth mentioning when considering post-season play.
OSU has been lucky to make one NCAA tourney since Payton I graduated and it took Payton II to get us there. I don't consider Payton II a Robinson or a Tinkle recruit; he is a legacy from his father and thank God for that. OSU has had a string of coaches that have simply not been up to the task and I think we have one right now. It's hard to imagine that the team will be better next year without Tinkle, Kelly, and possibly Thompson.
Coach Tinkle has scored a couple good non-family recruits (Eubanks, Kelly) but we need a talent upgrade and an X's and O's upgrade as well. The only way I could see improvement next year is a revelation that the locker room was in bad shape with the coaches' sons dominating and now the team is finally in a place where others can shine. Who knows. But Coach Tinkle should be on thin ice at this point. There is no post-season in sight at this point.
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Post by grad1973 on Jan 5, 2020 14:48:38 GMT -8
Quarterbacks in football and point guards in basketball are similar key positions to build around. If you miss on this piece it’s hard to organize a fast break or half court offense..it seems hard for OSU to recruit to that position.
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2ndGenBeaver
Sophomore
Posts: 1,702
Grad Year: 1991 (MS/CS) 1999 (PhD/CS)
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Post by 2ndGenBeaver on Jan 5, 2020 21:12:57 GMT -8
I was a student during the Miller Years. Ralph was a great basketball coach but he coached expecting such perfection his teams got to post season and were tight, playing not to lose. I think if he had it over Ralph would have been more aggressive in the regular season allowing players/teams to make mistakes with the greater goal of peaking in the post season. The Lamar and Kansas State losses in 80 and 81 should not have happened. You're right in that those teams played tight when they got to the tourny. The first round bye didn't do them any favors either. Lamar was crazy hot shooting as I recall. But mostly it's a sad commentary on OSU mbb over the past 20+ years that we are rehashing games that were played 40 years ago. Yes, I do not believe in the time I have been following OSU (Fall of 1987 - today), the only tournament in which a MBB team advanced beyond the first game was..........the CBI. So you can add Louisville, Evansville, Ball State, .... games played nearly 30 years ago, to that pile of games that we could rehash. But more recently......not so much. Very sad. I will start pulling very hard for this year's WT-led edition to not only get hot enough to get in, but hot enough to win a game, so that we can let go of all of those last century games. Go Beavers!
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beav74
Freshman
Posts: 703
Grad Year: OSU 1974
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Post by beav74 on May 27, 2020 21:26:05 GMT -8
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Post by beaverstever on May 28, 2020 22:02:01 GMT -8
Not only were no current college players alive when Ralph coached, there are parents of players today that weren't even alive when Ralph last won an NCAA postseason tournament game... We are now generations away from being relevant in MBB.
What drives me crazy about it is that in the 1980s and 90s, OSU football was a similar jalopy of a program, in what should be a MUCH harder sport to turn around. Yet it was done, and looks like it will be done again. I cannot understand why OSU isn't able to consistently field a team that can make the dance every few years. Just getting into the dance is akin to getting to a decent bowl game, which Riley managed periodically over a good period of time. Are we really not abel to find at least a Mike Riley-level basketball coach over 30+ years?!!
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on May 29, 2020 12:02:58 GMT -8
Not only were no current college players alive when Ralph coached, there are parents of players today that weren't even alive when Ralph last won an NCAA postseason tournament game... We are now generations away from being relevant in MBB. What drives me crazy about it is that in the 1980s and 90s, OSU football was a similar jalopy of a program, in what should be a MUCH harder sport to turn around. Yet it was done, and looks like it will be done again. I cannot understand why OSU isn't able to consistently field a team that can make the dance every few years. Just getting into the dance is akin to getting to a decent bowl game, which Riley managed periodically over a good period of time. Are we really not abel to find at least a Mike Riley-level basketball coach over 30+ years?!! I get the feeling that we may have had a Mike Riley-level basketball coach in Ritchie McKay. But, instead of Dennis Erickson, we hired Jay John. And then, when he was fired, we hired Craig Robinson, as opposed to McKay. Mike Riley is the winningest coach in Oregon State football history. Your question is why we cannot find the greatest coach in Oregon State basketball history in a period of 25 years of seriously looking? Also, getting a Tournament invite is more akin to being a top 25 football team rather than the more nebulous "getting to a decent bowl game" standard that you set forth above. Since they started issuing rankings in 1936, Stiner finished ranked once, Prothro finished ranked twice (or three times, if you include the UPI poll), Andros finished ranked twice (or three times, if you include the UPI poll), Erickson finished ranked once, and Riley finished ranked four times (or three times, if you just use the ESPN/USA Today poll).
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on May 29, 2020 12:19:43 GMT -8
Not only were no current college players alive when Ralph coached, there are parents of players today that weren't even alive when Ralph last won an NCAA postseason tournament game... We are now generations away from being relevant in MBB. What drives me crazy about it is that in the 1980s and 90s, OSU football was a similar jalopy of a program, in what should be a MUCH harder sport to turn around. Yet it was done, and looks like it will be done again. I cannot understand why OSU isn't able to consistently field a team that can make the dance every few years. Just getting into the dance is akin to getting to a decent bowl game, which Riley managed periodically over a good period of time. Are we really not abel to find at least a Mike Riley-level basketball coach over 30+ years?!! Hold on there! Isn't that the reason/excuse WT boosters claim as a reason(s) to accept mediocrity (if 22 games under .500 in league play is even that)? That it hasn't happened in 30, so this is as good as it'll get. Or is it: -No other coach out there could do better? -No other up and comer wants the OSU job? -Everyone else cheats that regularly makes the dance? -One appearance every 6 seasons (come on, at least going to be seven) makes for a lifetime contract/extensions? Did I miss any? Wayne Tinkle has coached Oregon State to one losing season in the past six years. In the other five, Oregon State has been .500 or better five times. Tinkle has coached exactly as many non-losing seasons as the six coaches before him did in the 24 years after Gary Payton graduated combined. Tinkle is statistically the best coach that Oregon State has had since Ralph Miller. Are you saying that Scott Barnes is the AD that can find the needle in the haystick of coaches that are actually better than Tinkle, who would actually want to come and coach in Corvallis? If Tinkle is not the coach next year, I would put a C-note down that Oregon State has more than one losing season in the next six. That is easy money. I am sure that there are several coaches that can do a better job than Tinkle, but none of them would coach here. And there are hundreds who are worse than Tinkle.
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Post by Judge Smails on May 29, 2020 12:49:03 GMT -8
Not only were no current college players alive when Ralph coached, there are parents of players today that weren't even alive when Ralph last won an NCAA postseason tournament game... We are now generations away from being relevant in MBB. What drives me crazy about it is that in the 1980s and 90s, OSU football was a similar jalopy of a program, in what should be a MUCH harder sport to turn around. Yet it was done, and looks like it will be done again. I cannot understand why OSU isn't able to consistently field a team that can make the dance every few years. Just getting into the dance is akin to getting to a decent bowl game, which Riley managed periodically over a good period of time. Are we really not abel to find at least a Mike Riley-level basketball coach over 30+ years?!! I get the feeling that we may have had a Mike Riley-level basketball coach in Ritchie McKay. But, instead of Dennis Erickson, we hired Jay John. And then, when he was fired, we hired Craig Robinson, as opposed to McKay. Mike Riley is the winningest coach in Oregon State football history. Your question is why we cannot find the greatest coach in Oregon State basketball history in a period of 25 years of seriously looking? Also, getting a Tournament invite is more akin to being a top 25 football team rather than the more nebulous "getting to a decent bowl game" standard that you set forth above. Since they started issuing rankings in 1936, Stiner finished ranked once, Prothro finished ranked twice (or three times, if you include the UPI poll), Andros finished ranked twice (or three times, if you include the UPI poll), Erickson finished ranked once, and Riley finished ranked four times (or three times, if you just use the ESPN/USA Today poll). Ritchie McKay love, really? Ask any player that played for him and you'll find out he's Lavonda Wagner's long lost twin.
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Post by jefframp on May 29, 2020 13:36:24 GMT -8
I get the feeling that we may have had a Mike Riley-level basketball coach in Ritchie McKay. But, instead of Dennis Erickson, we hired Jay John. And then, when he was fired, we hired Craig Robinson, as opposed to McKay. Mike Riley is the winningest coach in Oregon State football history. Your question is why we cannot find the greatest coach in Oregon State basketball history in a period of 25 years of seriously looking? Also, getting a Tournament invite is more akin to being a top 25 football team rather than the more nebulous "getting to a decent bowl game" standard that you set forth above. Since they started issuing rankings in 1936, Stiner finished ranked once, Prothro finished ranked twice (or three times, if you include the UPI poll), Andros finished ranked twice (or three times, if you include the UPI poll), Erickson finished ranked once, and Riley finished ranked four times (or three times, if you just use the ESPN/USA Today poll). Ritchie McKay love, really? Ask any player that played for him and you'll find out he's Lavonda Wagner's long lost twin. My only interaction with McKay (extremely brief!) left me with the feeling that he was a royal prick.
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Post by mbabeav on May 29, 2020 14:29:30 GMT -8
Ritchie McKay love, really? Ask any player that played for him and you'll find out he's Lavonda Wagner's long lost twin. My only interaction with McKay (extremely brief!) left me with the feeling that he was a royal prick. The second most joyful noise to come out of the athletic department personnel office in the last 20 years for me was to hear that someone was willing to pay us to take McKay off our hands. The most was when I was driving into work and they announced Erickson as our football new coach. Just about drove into the ditch, but maybe the insurance company would have understood.
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on May 29, 2020 15:11:50 GMT -8
Wayne Tinkle has coached Oregon State to one losing season in the past six years. In the other five, Oregon State has been .500 or better five times. Tinkle has coached exactly as many non-losing seasons as the six coaches before him did in the 24 years after Gary Payton graduated combined. Tinkle is statistically the best coach that Oregon State has had since Ralph Miller. Are you saying that Scott Barnes is the AD that can find the needle in the haystick of coaches that are actually better than Tinkle, who would actually want to come and coach in Corvallis? If Tinkle is not the coach next year, I would put a C-note down that Oregon State has more than one losing season in the next six. That is easy money. I am sure that there are several coaches that can do a better job than Tinkle, but none of them would coach here. And there are hundreds who are worse than Tinkle. Needle and Haystack is an extreme fabrication. There are many talented coaches in MBB. Many better than WT. One losing season. Yep if you want to rely on the pathetic NC schedule to pad such a claim. What is his record when it matters? How many winning seasons? With arguably 2-3 of the best ranked recruits in the past 30 years, on the same teams, he still flounders. Funny his recruiting is bottom third of the Pac12. He can't win consistently in Pac12 play with 4* (sons or not) types. So what does that say about his player development skills? The "excuse makers" always have one in the chamber. Typically want to use the past to judge the present. First, it was give him 3 recruiting classes, then 4, then 5... Going into season 7 this roster is pathetic. And, the WT fans applaud landing 2* JCs that had zero P5 offers?! The Riley analogy is very appropriate. Now Jonathan has done more for that program in his short stint than WT in 6+ seasons. I'm guessing when WT departs there will be no chance for success cuz history says so? I'll put several C notes you're wrong! Jonathan has done more? Seriously, I like the direction Jonathan's taking the program but we're not winning yet. Using your league play record is the only record that counts, he's minus 8 in just two seasons and it's going to take a great deal of success to push that positive in the next 4 seasons. Bottom third recruiting isn't great, but his overall recruiting record is better than the last 6 coaches, or st least his coaching skills are. No doubt there's some "unknown" coach out there who could do better, but identifying one is a crap shoot at best. Several of these threads ehere names have been mentioned as possible replacements for Tinkle, it turned out few to none of them had as much success as Tinkle had at Montana. Nobody has said there is "no chance" of finding a better coach, but history indicates the odds are poor.
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on May 29, 2020 16:36:59 GMT -8
Football much harder to turn around. Jonathan inherited a program in a complete mess, mentally and physically in terms of personnel. He and his staff have shown more in program and player development by far. History plays no part in the next hire. A HC and staff that can simply recruit at WT's level but can actually teach the game is a step above. And, I'm betting the next guy will recruit better without having it be relations. Google “Worst basketball coaching jobs in the Pac 12”. I did this last night, the first page had multiple examples from multiple sources over multiple years. OSU was bottom 2 in all but one, it finished bottom 3 in that one. A bunch of football articles came up even though it was a basketball search, same thing in most of those, I think one had OSU as the eighth best several years back. A couple articles mentioned specifically they were not based on playing results but specifically the school, the community and support. OSU has a rep, it’s not good.
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Post by Henry Skrimshander on May 29, 2020 16:44:08 GMT -8
Football much harder to turn around. Jonathan inherited a program in a complete mess, mentally and physically in terms of personnel. He and his staff have shown more in program and player development by far. History plays no part in the next hire. A HC and staff that can simply recruit at WT's level but can actually teach the game is a step above. And, I'm betting the next guy will recruit better without having it be relations. Mike Riley inherited a program with three wins in two years, changed the offense entirely, and had five wins in Year 2. Two years later DE went to the Fiesta Bowl. JS inherited a near-winless train wreck and won five games in Year 2. So maybe football isn't harder to turn around.
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