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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Sept 25, 2017 8:28:22 GMT -8
Right, what I was saying is that I don't think we are going to rename all these buildings. We're going to draw a line at what is "too racist." And that, to me, is insane. Either we scrub all names from buildings of people who were sorta racist, or we leave them and make sure to educate everyone about why their name is on the building and why these people were not infallible. I have no problem with leaving someone's name on the building while also mentioning that this person was not without fault. Sort of like allowing Pete Rose into the Hall of Fame, but making sure that on the plaque it says "Pete Rose was a supreme a-hole who bet on his own team. Also collected 4,192 hits." It'd be a lot easier, maybe even somewhat appropriate if it raises discussion, to add an asterisk to building names than to change them.
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Post by nabeav on Sept 25, 2017 8:58:53 GMT -8
Werebeaver Your response about what MLK's life means to you is exactly the point. You're able to look at his life and see that the good he did outweighed the indiscretions and say that, while he was not without fault, the man deserved to be honored despite the way he may have treated women (and I wholeheartedly agree with you on this one). For everyone it's a deeply personal choice, so perhaps not making a choice for everyone based on the personal feelings of some is the best course of action.
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Post by Werebeaver on Sept 25, 2017 9:03:29 GMT -8
Werebeaver Your response about what MLK's life means to you is exactly the point. You're able to look at his life and see that the good he did outweighed the indiscretions and say that, while he was not without fault, the man deserved to be honored despite the way he may have treated women (and I wholeheartedly agree with you on this one). For everyone it's a deeply personal choice, so perhaps not making a choice for everyone based on the personal feelings of some is the best course of action. What we individually chose to respect and honor is just that, an individual choice. What a public institution chooses to respect, honor and memorialize is an institutional decision. Through an open, public process - that's exactly as it should be and it doesn't scare me.
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Post by nabeav on Sept 25, 2017 9:33:52 GMT -8
Werebeaver Your response about what MLK's life means to you is exactly the point. You're able to look at his life and see that the good he did outweighed the indiscretions and say that, while he was not without fault, the man deserved to be honored despite the way he may have treated women (and I wholeheartedly agree with you on this one). For everyone it's a deeply personal choice, so perhaps not making a choice for everyone based on the personal feelings of some is the best course of action. What we individually chose to respect and honor is just that, an individual choice. What a public institution chooses to respect, honor and memorialize is an institutional decision. Through an open, public process - that's exactly as it should be and it doesn't scare me. I'll agree with that. I won't argue if they rename any of the buildings, even if it doesn't agree with my personal opinion. I just saying that people like Martin Luther King, George Washington, etc. are honored by public institutions as well despite less than perfect personal lives/opinions.
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bill82
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Post by bill82 on Sept 25, 2017 10:06:21 GMT -8
My suggestion to add context to Confederate monument on VCU campus. I'm guessing this will be the straw that sends this thread to Bmobile's board.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2017 11:03:45 GMT -8
Right, what I was saying is that I don't think we are going to rename all these buildings. We're going to draw a line at what is "too racist." And that, to me, is insane. Either we scrub all names from buildings of people who were sorta racist, or we leave them and make sure to educate everyone about why their name is on the building and why these people were not infallible. I have no problem with leaving someone's name on the building while also mentioning that this person was not without fault. Sort of like allowing Pete Rose into the Hall of Fame, but making sure that on the plaque it says "Pete Rose was a supreme a-hole who bet on his own team. Also collected 4,192 hits." Let's look at some famous "racists": Babe Ruth, John Wayne, Elvis Presley, Woodrow Wilson (at his cabinet meetings they used to tell "darkie" jokes), and Walt Disney. So I guess we'll have to rename all those "Woodrow Wilson" junior high schools, ban Elvis Presley songs from the radio, ban John Wayne movies and remove his star from that Hollywood sidewalk, scratch Babe Ruth from the record books, and stop going to Disneyland and Disney World. I'm really looking forward to our politically correct future. Oops, almost forgot about FDR. He signed an executive order sending 127,000 Japanese Americans to internment camps based on racial profiling. We'll have to remove all references to him from public buildings, too. Oh, excuse me, people of Japanese descent don't constitute a large enough voting block to force a change here. AND I forgot Abraham Lincoln: "Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life. Family life may also collapse and the increase of mixed breed bastards may some day challenge the supremacy of the white man." Hmm, there are so many I can't really go on. EVERY statue is going to have to come down and every building with the name of a flawed human being on it is going to have to get a name change, I think. I will say this: Renaming Columbus Day is something I wholeheartedly support. He wasn't just all talk. He took action: "Christopher Columbus, the man credited with discovering the Americas, was a greedy and vindictive tyrant who saved some of his most violent punishments for his own followers, according to a document uncovered by Spanish historians. As governor and viceroy of the Indies, Columbus imposed iron discipline on the first Spanish colony in the Americas, in what is now the Caribbean country of Dominican Republic. Punishments included cutting off people's ears and noses, parading women naked through the streets and selling them into slavery." Now THAT is someone deserving your attention! So Columbus, Ohio needs to change the name of their city out of respect for Columbus' slaves. Similarly, any city with the name Washington, Jefferson, or Lincoln needs to find some new name that doesn't show respect for those monsters of American history. Furthermore, anyone with the last name of Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, or Roosevelt needs to get a new surname, lest they disrespect those people's victims. Furthermore, any public institution should not be allowed to do business with any corporation or individiual who shows an inkling of racism, or who themselves do business with a racist corporation. And since the public sector is overwhelming the private sector due to its limitless financing, I understand that this will result in the abolition of all racist expression, and even the abolition of non-racist expression that some people perceive to be racist. And then we will all be free.
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rafer
Sophomore
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Post by rafer on Sept 25, 2017 11:54:45 GMT -8
Let's look at some famous "racists": Babe Ruth, John Wayne, Elvis Presley, Woodrow Wilson (at his cabinet meetings they used to tell "darkie" jokes), and Walt Disney. So I guess we'll have to rename all those "Woodrow Wilson" junior high schools, ban Elvis Presley songs from the radio, ban John Wayne movies and remove his star from that Hollywood sidewalk, scratch Babe Ruth from the record books, and stop going to Disneyland and Disney World. I'm really looking forward to our politically correct future. Oops, almost forgot about FDR. He signed an executive order sending 127,000 Japanese Americans to internment camps based on racial profiling. We'll have to remove all references to him from public buildings, too. Oh, excuse me, people of Japanese descent don't constitute a large enough voting block to force a change here. AND I forgot Abraham Lincoln: "Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life. Family life may also collapse and the increase of mixed breed bastards may some day challenge the supremacy of the white man." Hmm, there are so many I can't really go on. EVERY statue is going to have to come down and every building with the name of a flawed human being on it is going to have to get a name change, I think. I will say this: Renaming Columbus Day is something I wholeheartedly support. He wasn't just all talk. He took action: "Christopher Columbus, the man credited with discovering the Americas, was a greedy and vindictive tyrant who saved some of his most violent punishments for his own followers, according to a document uncovered by Spanish historians. As governor and viceroy of the Indies, Columbus imposed iron discipline on the first Spanish colony in the Americas, in what is now the Caribbean country of Dominican Republic. Punishments included cutting off people's ears and noses, parading women naked through the streets and selling them into slavery." Now THAT is someone deserving your attention! So Columbus, Ohio needs to change the name of their city out of respect for Columbus' slaves. Similarly, any city with the name Washington, Jefferson, or Lincoln needs to find some new name that doesn't show respect for those monsters of American history. Furthermore, anyone with the last name of Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, or Roosevelt needs to get a new surname, lest they disrespect those people's victims. Furthermore, any public institution should not be allowed to do business with any corporation or individiual who shows an inkling of racism, or who themselves do business with a racist corporation. And since the public sector is overwhelming the private sector due to its limitless financing, I understand that this will result in the abolition of all racist expression, and even the abolition of non-racist expression that some people perceive to be racist. And then we will all be free. All good points. This has gone from mildly credible to insanity in one easy lesson!! Maybe we should also, while we're at it, remove the names of all of the Native American tribes that dealt in slavery or kept slaves, and there were more than a few. Where does this end? Do we now have to give people a number instead of a name to make sure they aren't in some way related to XYZ and offend some one with their name?? Rod Sterling must have written this play!!!
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Post by Werebeaver on Sept 25, 2017 12:07:18 GMT -8
I will say this: Renaming Columbus Day is something I wholeheartedly support. He wasn't just all talk. He took action: "Christopher Columbus, the man credited with discovering the Americas, was a greedy and vindictive tyrant who saved some of his most violent punishments for his own followers, according to a document uncovered by Spanish historians. As governor and viceroy of the Indies, Columbus imposed iron discipline on the first Spanish colony in the Americas, in what is now the Caribbean country of Dominican Republic. Punishments included cutting off people's ears and noses, parading women naked through the streets and selling them into slavery." Now THAT is someone deserving your attention! So Columbus, Ohio needs to change the name of their city out of respect for Columbus' slaves. Similarly, any city with the name Washington, Jefferson, or Lincoln needs to find some new name that doesn't show respect for those monsters of American history. Furthermore, anyone with the last name of Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, or Roosevelt needs to get a new surname, lest they disrespect those people's victims. Furthermore, any public institution should not be allowed to do business with any corporation or individiual who shows an inkling of racism, or who themselves do business with a racist corporation. And since the public sector is overwhelming the private sector due to its limitless financing, I understand that this will result in the abolition of all racist expression, and even the abolition of non-racist expression that some people perceive to be racist. And then we will all be free. All good points. This has gone from mildly credible to insanity in one easy lesson!! Maybe we should also, while we're at it, remove the names of all of the Native American tribes that dealt in slavery or kept slaves, and there were more than a few. Where does this end? Do we now have to give people a number instead of a name to make sure they aren't in some way related to XYZ and offend some one with their name?? Rod Sterling must have written this play!!! Aah yes, "slipperyslopeism" to dismiss legitimate debate. These issues have been raised and WILL be aired, whether you like it or not. If you don't want to contribute that is your choice. The "Rod Sterling" reference dates you. For better or for worse.
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Post by Werebeaver on Sept 25, 2017 12:14:31 GMT -8
Aah yes, "slipperyslopeism" to dismiss legitimate debate. These issues have been raised and WILL be aired, whether you like it or not. If you don't want to contribute that is your choice. P.S. The "Rod Sterling" reference dates you. For better or for worse. There's no "i" in team and no "t" in Serling. Reparations for everyone! That's why I put it in quotations.
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rafer
Sophomore
Posts: 1,535
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Post by rafer on Sept 25, 2017 12:15:52 GMT -8
All good points. This has gone from mildly credible to insanity in one easy lesson!! Maybe we should also, while we're at it, remove the names of all of the Native American tribes that dealt in slavery or kept slaves, and there were more than a few. Where does this end? Do we now have to give people a number instead of a name to make sure they aren't in some way related to XYZ and offend some one with their name?? Rod Sterling must have written this play!!! Aah yes, "slipperyslopeism" to dismiss legitimate debate. These issues have been raised and WILL be aired, whether you like it or not. If you don't want to contribute that is your choice. P.S. The "Rod Sterling" reference dates you. For better or for worse. Dismiss debate?? Seriously, by reading this thread it looks EXACTLY like debate, SOOOO you might want to catch up. BTW, what is your number?? Just airing thoughts here............ But to the point, "where does it end"?? When do we know we are there?? Is this another gov't agency of acceptability?? What if my name Lee, oh the humanity!!!
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rafer
Sophomore
Posts: 1,535
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Post by rafer on Sept 25, 2017 12:17:12 GMT -8
Aah yes, "slipperyslopeism" to dismiss legitimate debate. These issues have been raised and WILL be aired, whether you like it or not. If you don't want to contribute that is your choice. P.S. The "Rod Sterling" reference dates you. For better or for worse. There's no "i" in team and no "t" in Serling. Reparations for everyone! Ah, the floating "t".....
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Post by Werebeaver on Sept 25, 2017 12:23:34 GMT -8
Aah yes, "slipperyslopeism" to dismiss legitimate debate. These issues have been raised and WILL be aired, whether you like it or not. If you don't want to contribute that is your choice. P.S. The "Rod Sterling" reference dates you. For better or for worse. Dismiss debate?? Seriously, by reading this thread it looks EXACTLY like debate, SOOOO you might want to catch up. BTW, what is your number?? Just airing thoughts here............ But to the point, "where does it end"?? When do we know we are there?? Is this another gov't agency of acceptability?? What if my name Lee, oh the humanity!!! 10 question marks in a paragraph that doesn't contain coherent question. Congratulations. That's some sort of illiterate accomplishment.
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Post by nabeav on Sept 25, 2017 13:07:49 GMT -8
It's not a stupid debate, and maybe that's the problem. There are actual people that feel genuinely upset about these things. Trying to understand why is the only way we are ever going to move forward on this. All the people heading to these open forums loaded for bear ready to crush anyone's arguments as "stupid" is going to derail what could be a good opportunity to come to some sort of compromise or mutually agreed upon solution.
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Post by ag87 on Sept 25, 2017 13:38:04 GMT -8
What if my name is Lee? It means you have ancestors from China?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2017 14:20:47 GMT -8
All good points. This has gone from mildly credible to insanity in one easy lesson!! Maybe we should also, while we're at it, remove the names of all of the Native American tribes that dealt in slavery or kept slaves, and there were more than a few. Where does this end? Do we now have to give people a number instead of a name to make sure they aren't in some way related to XYZ and offend some one with their name?? Rod Sterling must have written this play!!! Aah yes, "slipperyslopeism" to dismiss legitimate debate. These issues have been raised and WILL be aired, whether you like it or not. If you don't want to contribute that is your choice. The "Rod Sterling" reference dates you. For better or for worse. From what I've read, it seems that Slats Gill objected to a mixing of the races, much as Lincoln did. It seems logical to me, therefore, that if you want to expunge Slats Gill from the memory of Oregon State, then you should also want to expunge monuments to Abraham Lincoln. Perhaps you would want Lincoln's racist quotes highlighted in our children's history books? Just let the children know that he was a bad man in some ways? Should we also include the sordid details of MLK's life in our history books so that children see him as less of a heroic figure? I'm wondering how you rationalize dumping on Slats Gill without doing the same to Lincoln and MLK, if that is how you roll? Personally, I'm in favor of showing children the unsavory side of Americans that are held up as heroic figures. JFK was an adulterer many times over. Andrew Jackson committed Indian genocide. None of these fellows was a saint, so if we're going to do this, let's go all the way and not exempt your faves. The movie "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner" came out in 1967 and was quite controversial. Back in the days of Slats Gill, probably a majority of Americans were against racial mixing, and probably a lot of professors and students felt the same way. You are picking on Mr. Gill even though he was not far out of the mainstream thinking back then. His only real distinction from other people was that, as a coach, he was in a position to limit minority opportunities on the basketball court. But he retired from coaching in 1964, and racial integration was only really beginning in the early 60's, so he really did no more damage than probably most other coaches in the country. Are you going to hunt down all the other coaches back then at other schools and in other sports and bring the hammer down on their legacies, too?
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