2ndGenBeaver
Sophomore
Posts: 1,743
Grad Year: 1991 (MS/CS) 1999 (PhD/CS)
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Post by 2ndGenBeaver on May 7, 2024 6:46:08 GMT -8
I found this fairly detailed analysis of the prognosis of teams that get "left behind": www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/40095204/college-football-realignment-happens-left-behindI note that we are mentioned in some of the 'case studies' as well, so not our first "left behind" moment. It underscores how maintaining some excellence in the orphaned program makes a difference in terms of rejoining a P4 program or newly reconstituted conference (not a big a-ha, but it does give teeth to the assertion). Also provides facts and figures to back up the assertion we were better than many of the T10. Go Beavers!
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Post by bvrbred on May 7, 2024 8:09:41 GMT -8
If you're disadvantaged in terms of resources, population base, media interest, etc, and you are not relevant in football terms, then you have no chance. That is the story of Montana and Idaho. In fact, I'm not sure either one of them even wanted to be in the new Pac-8.
The rebound stories of TCU, SMU, Houston, are great but it needs to be acknowledged that all three are located in major popuation centers, hence attractiveness to the media. If you have both (football chops and media attractiveness) you're probably a shoe-in any time a major conference wants to expand. I'd like to know if there has been a rebound story for a school in a minor media market who did it because what they could do on the field?
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Post by orangeattack on May 7, 2024 8:37:02 GMT -8
If you're disadvantaged in terms of resources, population base, media interest, etc, and you are not relevant in football terms, then you have no chance. That is the story of Montana and Idaho. In fact, I'm not sure either one of them even wanted to be in the new Pac-8. The rebound stories of TCU, SMU, Houston, are great but it needs to be acknowledged that all three are located in major popuation centers, hence attractiveness to the media. If you have both (football chops and media attractiveness) you're probably a shoe-in any time a major conference wants to expand. I'd like to know if there has been a rebound story for a school in a minor media market who did it because what they could do on the field? Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, the Dakotas. All have been successful, but at a lower division. Does Oregon State qualify in that same category? I think most of us would argue vehemently "no" but then again.. what's the frame of reference? If it's USC, Ohio State, Alabama, Texas that we are measuring against, well maybe not. But we can be compared reasonably against Tucson. Does Arizona not belong? I still believe that Oregon State is not headed for the Mountain West.
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Post by lebaneaver on May 7, 2024 13:56:21 GMT -8
Seems pretty reasonable. Idaho State W @ SDSU was 4-8(2-6) last year. W Purdue started 2-7 and finished 4-8. We play them at Reser. W CSU was 5-7(3-5), winning 2 of their final 3 like Purdue. W @ UNR was 2-10(2-6). W SJSU was 7-6(6-2) and we walloped them at their place(I know I know, so much change). W Hard to fathom losing to these bottom of the barrel MWC teams, especially at home. Hole L UNLV was 9-5(6-2). I'll put an L here just to be conservative. I bet we beat them tho. @ AFA was 9-4 (5-3)last year. On the road, call it an L. /shrug @ BSU was 8-6(6-2) and we play them in Boise. Call it an L. @ CAL We beat them last year in Berkeley and have to play there again. Toss-up given how much we've lost? WSU beat us by 3 in Pullman last year. Call it another toss-up. Win 1 toss-up that's 7. Win both that's 8. Beat UNLV, that's 9. I think 8 should be the expectation. I bet we're more likely to win 10 than 5-6. Last year's team is 12-0 against this schedule. Are you SURE we beat "hole?"
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Post by northvalleybeaver on May 7, 2024 14:50:23 GMT -8
I have family in Lafayette Indiana and they are saying Purdue , should be much improved this year. They have followed the boilermakers for decades just like their deceased parents did. Interesting note for me, the first college stadium I ever stepped foot in was Purdue's. My older cousin and I would go through a hole in the chain link fence and let the night guard chase us for 5 minutes. He was over 50 and 50 pounds over weight so he never caught us, fond memories from my youth. Loved my relatives but despised the humidity so much.
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Post by beavaristotle on May 7, 2024 15:29:11 GMT -8
If you're disadvantaged in terms of resources, population base, media interest, etc, and you are not relevant in football terms, then you have no chance. That is the story of Montana and Idaho. In fact, I'm not sure either one of them even wanted to be in the new Pac-8. The rebound stories of TCU, SMU, Houston, are great but it needs to be acknowledged that all three are located in major popuation centers, hence attractiveness to the media. If you have both (football chops and media attractiveness) you're probably a shoe-in any time a major conference wants to expand. I'd like to know if there has been a rebound story for a school in a minor media market who did it because what they could do on the field? another thing that helps with rebounding is CASH. SMU way able to raise 100 mill in 7 days from only 30 donors. That is not the world we live in
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Post by ee1990 on May 8, 2024 20:10:22 GMT -8
Seems pretty reasonable. Idaho State W @ SDSU was 4-8(2-6) last year. W Purdue started 2-7 and finished 4-8. We play them at Reser. W CSU was 5-7(3-5), winning 2 of their final 3 like Purdue. W @ UNR was 2-10(2-6). W SJSU was 7-6(6-2) and we walloped them at their place(I know I know, so much change). W Hard to fathom losing to these bottom of the barrel MWC teams, especially at home. Hole L UNLV was 9-5(6-2). I'll put an L here just to be conservative. I bet we beat them tho. @ AFA was 9-4 (5-3)last year. On the road, call it an L. /shrug @ BSU was 8-6(6-2) and we play them in Boise. Call it an L. @ CAL We beat them last year in Berkeley and have to play there again. Toss-up given how much we've lost? WSU beat us by 3 in Pullman last year. Call it another toss-up. Win 1 toss-up that's 7. Win both that's 8. Beat UNLV, that's 9. I think 8 should be the expectation. I bet we're more likely to win 10 than 5-6. Last year's team is 12-0 against this schedule. Are you SURE we beat "hole?" Mistakes were made.
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Post by p8nted on May 8, 2024 21:07:16 GMT -8
If you're disadvantaged in terms of resources, population base, media interest, etc, and you are not relevant in football terms, then you have no chance. That is the story of Montana and Idaho. In fact, I'm not sure either one of them even wanted to be in the new Pac-8. The rebound stories of TCU, SMU, Houston, are great but it needs to be acknowledged that all three are located in major popuation centers, hence attractiveness to the media. If you have both (football chops and media attractiveness) you're probably a shoe-in any time a major conference wants to expand. I'd like to know if there has been a rebound story for a school in a minor media market who did it because what they could do on the field? Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, the Dakotas. All have been successful, but at a lower division. Does Oregon State qualify in that same category? I think most of us would argue vehemently "no" but then again.. what's the frame of reference? If it's USC, Ohio State, Alabama, Texas that we are measuring against, well maybe not. But we can be compared reasonably against Tucson. Does Arizona not belong? I still believe that Oregon State is not headed for the Mountain West. Wyoming played in a pair of Sugar bowls in the 1950's with a win over Auburn in one. They have been nationally ranked multiple times since then. Not sure they fit in that group. Wyoming never was an FCS school or D1 AA. Their isolation is a huge problem moving forward in this new Media driven world. As is WSU frankly
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on May 8, 2024 23:19:24 GMT -8
Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, the Dakotas. All have been successful, but at a lower division. Does Oregon State qualify in that same category? I think most of us would argue vehemently "no" but then again.. what's the frame of reference? If it's USC, Ohio State, Alabama, Texas that we are measuring against, well maybe not. But we can be compared reasonably against Tucson. Does Arizona not belong? I still believe that Oregon State is not headed for the Mountain West. Wyoming played in a pair of Sugar bowls in the 1950's with a win over Auburn in one. They have been nationally ranked multiple times since then. Not sure they fit in that group. Wyoming never was an FCS school or D1 AA. Their isolation is a huge problem moving forward in this new Media driven world. As is WSU frankly Wyoming played in one Sugar Bowl in 1968. That was at the end of the 1967 season. Auburn has only lost to two teams in the Sugar Bowl, Florida State and Oklahoma. Auburn and Wyoming only played once, the first game of the 2000 regular season. Wyoming won the WAC in 1966, going 9-1, only loss to nonconference Colorado State. Wyoming beat Florida State in the Sun Bowl 28-20 to finish 10-1. In 1967, Wyoming was undefeated. The Cowboys had perhaps the greatest set of skill position players at the time with Dave Hampton (the Falcons' all-time leading rusher until the 80s), Jim Kiick (Super Bowls VII and VIII Champion), Joe Washington (Super Bowl VI Champion), and Vic Washington (led the Niners to three straight NFC West Championships in the early 70s). Jerry DePoyster was an All-American kicker/punter. The final AP poll was: 1. USC 2. Tennessee 3. Oklahoma 4. Indiana 5. Notre Dame 6. Wyoming 7. Oregon State 8. Alabama 9. Purdue 10. Penn State
The Rose Bowl was #1 USC v. #4 Indiana.
The Orange Bowl got #2 Tennessee v. #3 Oklahoma.
#5 Notre Dame did not play in bowl games, because of their academic calendar at the time.
The second-best SEC team, Alabama, elected to play the SWC Champion, Texas A&M, in the Cotton Bowl.
The third-best SEC team, Georgia, elected to snub the Sugar Bowl to play the ACC Champion, NC State, in the Liberty Bowl.
At the time, the AAWU and Big Ten had an exclusive contract with the Rose Bowl, meaning that only the champions of each conference played in bowl games at the time.
The Gator Bowl invited Florida State and Penn State
The Bluebonnet Bowl invited Colorado and Miami.
Houston was on probation at the time.
The Sugar Bowl was left with the fourth-best SEC team, LSU. To play LSU, the Sugar Bowl basically had the realistic choice between #5 Wyoming and #12 Syracuse. Of the two, the Sugar Bowl invited Wyoming.
LSU beat #5 Wyoming 20-13. Wyoming dominated the first half but only scored 13 points, seven on a Kiick touchdown run and six others on two DePoyster field goals. The second DePoyster field goal was from 49 yards, a Sugar Bowl record a the time, with one second left in the first half. DePoyster narrowly missed a 46-yard field goal in the second half. At that point, LSU went to their third-string running back, Glenn Smith, who Wyoming could not stop, scoring to make it 13-7. Nelson Stokley (Brandon's dad) then led the team on a game-tying touchdown drive to knot it at 13. Wyoming went to the pass to try and regain the lead but was intercepted. Stokley led a second touchdown drive to make it 20-13. Wyoming got the ball back at the 18 with 1:37 left. The Cowboys hit a 64-yard pass to the tight end to the Tigers' 18. Wyoming then hit a second pass down to the five but the clock ran out. 20-13 the final.
Wyoming won the WAC for a third consecutive year in 1968, but Arizona, which lost to Arizona State to allow Wyoming to win the WAC title, had pressured the Sun Bowl into inviting Arizona over Wyoming before the Battle for the Territorial Cup was played. The Wildcats' nonsense in 1968 was one of the primary reasons for the creation of the Fiesta Bowl two seasons later to ensure that the WAC Champion had a place to play.
What happened to Wyoming? A similar thing as to what happened to Oregon State. Oregon State had the Fred Milton Affair, which spoiled the entire 1969 season and led to the beginning of The Streak. Wyoming, on the other hand, had the Black 14. Between the UTEP and BYU games, the 14 black players came in and asked to be provided a way to protest BYU (first for their fans using racial epithets in the previous year's game in Provo and second for Mormons not allowing black people into the priesthood at the time). The coach kicked the 14 off the team. Two weeks later, San Jose State wore multi-colored armbands to protest Wyoming. The Cowboys beat BYU and San Jose State without the 14 but lost the final four and went 1-9 the next year.
Unlike Oregon State, which let the situation linger into 1975, Wyoming immediately hired a new head coach and started over. The Cowboys won a WAC Championship in 1976 and played Oklahoma in the Fiesta Bowl. But Coach Fred Akers left to coach Texas after that. After the Arizona schools joined the Pac-10, the Fiesta Bowl stopped inviting the WAC Champion. The Holiday Bowl was created in 1978 to replace the Fiesta Bowl. Wyoming won consecutive WAC Championships and played in consecutive Holiday Bowls in 1987 and 1988 under Roach with Dennis Erickson's players. (Erickson left after the 1986 season.) Pat Tiller replaced Roach in 1991 and Wyoming was a WAC Co-Champion in 1993 but lost on tiebreakers to BYU. Tiller would go on to coach Purdue for 12 years.
Wyoming played in the Las Vegas Bowl (in a spot reserved for the Mountain West Champion) in 2004 but only because Utah went to the Sugar Bowl. Otherwise, there were only two New Mexico Bowl berths before Wyoming lured away Craigh Bohl from North Dakota State after the 2013 season. Under Bohl, the Cowboys were .500 or better in each season, except for the 2020 season. Jay Sawvel replaced Bohl after Bohl's retirement.
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Post by Henry Skrimshander on May 9, 2024 6:36:14 GMT -8
Joe Tiller. Then went to Purdue and opened up the Big Ten offenses with a QB named Drew Brees.
Joe Tiller coached at Montana State with Dennis Erickson, or was on the MSU staff when Erickson played there, or played at MSU when DE was there, can't remember which. But they have an MSU connection.
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Post by Judge Smails on May 9, 2024 6:49:26 GMT -8
Joe Tiller. Then went to Purdue and opened up the Big Ten offenses with a QB named Drew Brees. Joe Tiller coached at Montana State with Dennis Erickson, or was on the MSU staff when Erickson played there, or played at MSU when DE was there, can't remember which. But they have an MSU connection. DE was a GA at Montana St for 1 year when Tiller was a line coach there. Tiller graduated as a player prior to DE arriving as a player there.
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Post by p8nted on May 9, 2024 7:25:50 GMT -8
Wyoming played in a pair of Sugar bowls in the 1950's with a win over Auburn in one. They have been nationally ranked multiple times since then. Not sure they fit in that group. Wyoming never was an FCS school or D1 AA. Their isolation is a huge problem moving forward in this new Media driven world. As is WSU frankly Wyoming played in one Sugar Bowl in 1968. That was at the end of the 1967 season. Auburn has only lost to two teams in the Sugar Bowl, Florida State and Oklahoma. Auburn and Wyoming only played once, the first game of the 2000 regular season. Wyoming won the WAC in 1966, going 9-1, only loss to nonconference Colorado State. Wyoming beat Florida State in the Sun Bowl 28-20 to finish 10-1. In 1967, Wyoming was undefeated. The Cowboys had perhaps the greatest set of skill position players at the time with Dave Hampton (the Falcons' all-time leading rusher until the 80s), Jim Kiick (Super Bowls VII and VIII Champion), Joe Washington (Super Bowl VI Champion), and Vic Washington (led the Niners to three straight NFC West Championships in the early 70s). Jerry DePoyster was an All-American kicker/punter. The final AP poll was: 1. USC 2. Tennessee 3. Oklahoma 4. Indiana 5. Notre Dame 6. Wyoming 7. Oregon State 8. Alabama 9. Purdue 10. Penn State
The Rose Bowl was #1 USC v. #4 Indiana.
The Orange Bowl got #2 Tennessee v. #3 Oklahoma.
#5 Notre Dame did not play in bowl games, because of their academic calendar at the time.
The second-best SEC team, Alabama, elected to play the SWC Champion, Texas A&M, in the Cotton Bowl.
The third-best SEC team, Georgia, elected to snub the Sugar Bowl to play the ACC Champion, NC State, in the Liberty Bowl.
At the time, the AAWU and Big Ten had an exclusive contract with the Rose Bowl, meaning that only the champions of each conference played in bowl games at the time.
The Gator Bowl invited Florida State and Penn State
The Bluebonnet Bowl invited Colorado and Miami.
Houston was on probation at the time.
The Sugar Bowl was left with the fourth-best SEC team, LSU. To play LSU, the Sugar Bowl basically had the realistic choice between #5 Wyoming and #12 Syracuse. Of the two, the Sugar Bowl invited Wyoming.
LSU beat #5 Wyoming 20-13. Wyoming dominated the first half but only scored 13 points, seven on a Kiick touchdown run and six others on two DePoyster field goals. The second DePoyster field goal was from 49 yards, a Sugar Bowl record a the time, with one second left in the first half. DePoyster narrowly missed a 46-yard field goal in the second half. At that point, LSU went to their third-string running back, Glenn Smith, who Wyoming could not stop, scoring to make it 13-7. Nelson Stokley (Brandon's dad) then led the team on a game-tying touchdown drive to knot it at 13. Wyoming went to the pass to try and regain the lead but was intercepted. Stokley led a second touchdown drive to make it 20-13. Wyoming got the ball back at the 18 with 1:37 left. The Cowboys hit a 64-yard pass to the tight end to the Tigers' 18. Wyoming then hit a second pass down to the five but the clock ran out. 20-13 the final.
Wyoming won the WAC for a third consecutive year in 1968, but Arizona, which lost to Arizona State to allow Wyoming to win the WAC title, had pressured the Sun Bowl into inviting Arizona over Wyoming before the Battle for the Territorial Cup was played. The Wildcats' nonsense in 1968 was one of the primary reasons for the creation of the Fiesta Bowl two seasons later to ensure that the WAC Champion had a place to play.
What happened to Wyoming? A similar thing as to what happened to Oregon State. Oregon State had the Fred Milton Affair, which spoiled the entire 1969 season and led to the beginning of The Streak. Wyoming, on the other hand, had the Black 14. Between the UTEP and BYU games, the 14 black players came in and asked to be provided a way to protest BYU (first for their fans using racial epithets in the previous year's game in Provo and second for Mormons not allowing black people into the priesthood at the time). The coach kicked the 14 off the team. Two weeks later, San Jose State wore multi-colored armbands to protest Wyoming. The Cowboys beat BYU and San Jose State without the 14 but lost the final four and went 1-9 the next year.
Unlike Oregon State, which let the situation linger into 1975, Wyoming immediately hired a new head coach and started over. The Cowboys won a WAC Championship in 1976 and played Oklahoma in the Fiesta Bowl. But Coach Fred Akers left to coach Texas after that. After the Arizona schools joined the Pac-10, the Fiesta Bowl stopped inviting the WAC Champion. The Holiday Bowl was created in 1978 to replace the Fiesta Bowl. Wyoming won consecutive WAC Championships and played in consecutive Holiday Bowls in 1987 and 1988 under Roach with Dennis Erickson's players. (Erickson left after the 1986 season.) Pat Tiller replaced Roach in 1991 and Wyoming was a WAC Co-Champion in 1993 but lost on tiebreakers to BYU. Tiller would go on to coach Purdue for 12 years.
Wyoming played in the Las Vegas Bowl (in a spot reserved for the Mountain West Champion) in 2004 but only because Utah went to the Sugar Bowl. Otherwise, there were only two New Mexico Bowl berths before Wyoming lured away Craigh Bohl from North Dakota State after the 2013 season. Under Bohl, the Cowboys were .500 or better in each season, except for the 2020 season. Jay Sawvel replaced Bohl after Bohl's retirement.Thanks. For some reason I remembered two sugar bowls. Black 14 incident with BYU killed Wyo football as they were an early school to recruit and let blacks play on that level.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on May 9, 2024 10:48:27 GMT -8
Joe Tiller. Then went to Purdue and opened up the Big Ten offenses with a QB named Drew Brees. Joe Tiller coached at Montana State with Dennis Erickson, or was on the MSU staff when Erickson played there, or played at MSU when DE was there, can't remember which. But they have an MSU connection. Joe Tiller was the line (both offensive and defensive) coach at Montana State while Erickson went to school there and for Erickson's GA year at Montana State. Tiller then basically became the guy to continue on after Erickson made a mess of things. Tiller was the OC at Wyoming under Paul Roach after Erickson left to coach Wazzu and then moved on to be the OC at Wazzu after Erickson left for Miami. In 1991, Tiller was hired as the head coach at Wyoming to replace Roach, who retired as the head coach.
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Post by ee1990 on May 10, 2024 21:06:49 GMT -8
If you're disadvantaged in terms of resources, population base, media interest, etc, and you are not relevant in football terms, then you have no chance. That is the story of Montana and Idaho. In fact, I'm not sure either one of them even wanted to be in the new Pac-8. The rebound stories of TCU, SMU, Houston, are great but it needs to be acknowledged that all three are located in major popuation centers, hence attractiveness to the media. If you have both (football chops and media attractiveness) you're probably a shoe-in any time a major conference wants to expand. I'd like to know if there has been a rebound story for a school in a minor media market who did it because what they could do on the field? Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, the Dakotas. All have been successful, but at a lower division. Does Oregon State qualify in that same category? I think most of us would argue vehemently "no" but then again.. what's the frame of reference? If it's USC, Ohio State, Alabama, Texas that we are measuring against, well maybe not. But we can be compared reasonably against Tucson. Does Arizona not belong? I still believe that Oregon State is not headed for the Mountain West. Tucson is in a massively superior geographic location.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on May 10, 2024 22:00:05 GMT -8
Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, the Dakotas. All have been successful, but at a lower division. Does Oregon State qualify in that same category? I think most of us would argue vehemently "no" but then again.. what's the frame of reference? If it's USC, Ohio State, Alabama, Texas that we are measuring against, well maybe not. But we can be compared reasonably against Tucson. Does Arizona not belong? I still believe that Oregon State is not headed for the Mountain West. Tucson is in a massively superior geographic location. No offense to Corvallis.
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