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Post by ag87 on Feb 17, 2019 9:27:47 GMT -8
It's tough to separate the college player from the pro player. What a guy does after OSU shouldn't factor into how good of a player he was at OSU. No one would say Steve Lyons is one of OSU's all-time great players. He wasn't, not even close. He had a nice professional career, better than 99.9 percent of OSU lettermen, but that doesn't make him a better college player than Shea McFeeley or Ken Bowen. Matt Boyd was a good pitcher at OSU, and has had a nice pro career. But he wasn't anywhere near as good a college pitcher as Dallas Buck, who never pitched an inning above AA, I think. Same with Ken Simonton and Teron Ward. No question who the better college player was, but Ward had the better pro career. If Philip can become as good a college player as Darwin or Grenier, we're in good shape this season. Matt Boyd was a way better college pitcher than Dallas Buck, most noticeably far more strikeouts and far fewer walks. Boyd was the ace on a staff that included another major leaguer (Andrew Moore), Dylan Davis (who had a 3.08 ERA as a pitcher and was also an outfielder for Oregon State), and Ben Wetzler Holmes. In his junior season, in his starts, Boyd never pitched fewer than five innings and never gave up more than three earned runs. Contrariwise, in his junior season, in his starts, Buck pitched fewer than five innings twice (once against Texas-Pan American) and gave up more than three earned runs four times. In his first start at the College World Series in 2006, Buck gave up 7 earned runs to Miami in 5 innings in a 7 hits, 5 walks, and 2 strikeout performance. A sophomore Mike Stutes against that same Miami team held the Hurricanes to 1 earned run in 6 1/3 innings on 4 hits, 2 walks, and 3 strikeouts. In his first start at the College World Series in 2013, Boyd had a pitching performance for the ages, throwing a complete game, four hit shutout against Indiana that featured 11 strikeouts and 3 walks. Going back to the Super Regionals, Boyd gave up one earned run on five hits in a seven inning gem, only for Jace Fry to come on and give up three runs to lose the game. Boyd then came back on one day's rest to pitch the final 1 1/3 innings to pick up his lone save of the year in the tense 4-3 rubber match to punch Oregon State's ticket to Omaha. You need to look at Dallas Buck in 2005. That year and in the Cape Cod League he may have had the best stuff in the NCAA. In 2006 he was pitching injured. |
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Post by Henry Skrimshander on Feb 17, 2019 10:53:35 GMT -8
Matt Boyd was a way better college pitcher than Dallas Buck, most noticeably far more strikeouts and far fewer walks.
Ha ha ha you're killing me Smalls. Buck was the Friday night guy in 2005 and 2006, outpitched numerous future major-leaguers (Lincecum, Kennedy, Reynolds, Huff, Ambritz, Norris, Ross) and hardly ever lost.
You can cherry pick individual games until the cows come home but there is no way Boyd was ever better than Buck was in 2005, and even in 2006, when he was pitching with a bad elbow that ultimately ended his career.
And Dylan Davis probably did not have more than 10 pitching appearances in his entire college career.
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Post by baseba1111 on Feb 17, 2019 12:02:28 GMT -8
Matt Boyd was a way better college pitcher than Dallas Buck, most noticeably far more strikeouts and far fewer walks.Ha ha ha you're killing me Smalls. Buck was the Friday night guy in 2005 and 2006, outpitched numerous future major-leaguers (Lincecum, Kennedy, Reynolds, Huff, Ambritz, Norris, Ross) and hardly ever lost. You can cherry pick individual games until the cows come home but there is no way Boyd was ever better than Buck was in 2005, and even in 2006, when he was pitching with a bad elbow that ultimately ended his career. And Dylan Davis probably did not have more than 10 pitching appearances in his entire college career. They were BOTH great college pitchers and depending on the metrics both had pluses and minuses... Dallas 28-10 mostly starts, but school record 84 HBP... 272 K/141 BB... 225 free guys on base in 326 IP... 118 ER... 3.26 ERA*hurt... lame... poor mechanics and over use since he was in LL. Always pitching sore, but you do not pitch over 100 innings in college/summer each year when you have a HURT arm. Boyd... 22-5 mostly relief. Only 4 starts his first three seasons. Sr season jumped to 18 starts and 95 more innings than his Jr season... 11-4... 132.2 IP... 122K/33BB... 2.04 ERA. Overall 258.1 IP with 2.13 ERA... 216 K/71 BBI'd say each has an argument... but not sure why as both were very talented. Buck's longevity in baseball was due more to his poor mechanics never being corrected young and overuse as a kid. Boyd a late bloomer and was able to brought along slow on talented staffs. PS- Dylan Davis made 17 appearances over 3 seasons... 7 starts... 26.1 IP... 9 ER... 3.12 ERA... never knew where the ball might go watching him warmup. |
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Feb 17, 2019 14:16:06 GMT -8
Matt Boyd was a way better college pitcher than Dallas Buck, most noticeably far more strikeouts and far fewer walks. Boyd was the ace on a staff that included another major leaguer (Andrew Moore), Dylan Davis (who had a 3.08 ERA as a pitcher and was also an outfielder for Oregon State), and Ben Wetzler Holmes. In his junior season, in his starts, Boyd never pitched fewer than five innings and never gave up more than three earned runs. Contrariwise, in his junior season, in his starts, Buck pitched fewer than five innings twice (once against Texas-Pan American) and gave up more than three earned runs four times. In his first start at the College World Series in 2006, Buck gave up 7 earned runs to Miami in 5 innings in a 7 hits, 5 walks, and 2 strikeout performance. A sophomore Mike Stutes against that same Miami team held the Hurricanes to 1 earned run in 6 1/3 innings on 4 hits, 2 walks, and 3 strikeouts. In his first start at the College World Series in 2013, Boyd had a pitching performance for the ages, throwing a complete game, four hit shutout against Indiana that featured 11 strikeouts and 3 walks. Going back to the Super Regionals, Boyd gave up one earned run on five hits in a seven inning gem, only for Jace Fry to come on and give up three runs to lose the game. Boyd then came back on one day's rest to pitch the final 1 1/3 innings to pick up his lone save of the year in the tense 4-3 rubber match to punch Oregon State's ticket to Omaha. You need to look at Dallas Buck in 2005. That year and in the Cape Cod League he may have had the best stuff in the NCAA. In 2006 he was pitching injured. You can compare Buck's 2005 numbers to Boyd's 2013 numbers. Boyd had more strikeouts and allowed fewer walks, fewer hits, and fewer runs. Boyd also had a great Cape Cod in 2012; he was a Cape Cod All-Star. Boyd also played on Team USA in 2011. At his best, Buck was not as good as Boyd. Having said that, baseba1111 has a great point that the depth of the Oregon State pitching staff, when Boyd was pitching allowed Casey to bring Boyd up slowly to where he was Matt Boyd. Perhaps the argument is that Buck had a better three seasons than Boyd had in four? |
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Post by ag87 on Feb 17, 2019 15:09:06 GMT -8
Buck was better although for a short time and consistency was not a huge strength. There was talk after '05 that he would be the first player picked in the draft the next year.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Feb 18, 2019 3:29:30 GMT -8
Buck was better although for a short time and consistency was not a huge strength. There was talk after '05 that he would be the first player picked in the draft the next year. I heard some talk that Buck would be a top 10 pick, but that was because Buck had a high GO/AO. Buck's fastball tended to tail down, which produced more groundouts and fewer flyouts. You can see it in Buck only allowing three home runs in 2005. (Boyd allowed five in 2013.) Between his sophomore and junior years, Buck lost almost 10 mph on his fastball. At that point, it did not really matter what his GO/AO was (eight home runs allowed in 2006). The Diamondbacks picked him in the third round, hoping that they could sign him under value (they did) and hoping that he would heal up and get the velocity back on his fastball. Once they selected Buck, the Diamondbacks determined that Buck had a partial tear of his UCL. Between Buck either being too stubborn or the Diamondbacks (or an independent doctor) giving Buck bad advice, Buck did not have Tommy John surgery to repair the tear until August 2007. He was only allowed 10 months to heal before the Diamondbacks had him starting again. By that time, Buck appeared to be on the mend, and his GO/AO was 3.00. The Diamondbacks tried to shop him to Atlanta for Mark Teixeira, but the Braves did not bite. Instead, the Diamondbacks ended up trading him and Micah Owings to the Reds for Adam Dunn. In 2009, Buck missed more than three months due to two separate arm injuries. In 2010, Buck suffered a season-ending oblique injury in May. The Reds gave him a shot at AAA ball in 2011, but he was sent back down to AA before throwing a pitch. By that time, the Reds had tagged Buck as uncoachable, so they cut him two-and-a-half weeks later. Two months later, Buck signed with the independent Edmonton Capitals. Buck went a perfect 5-0 in six starts with a 2.08 ERA (no home runs allowed), leading the Capitals to the North American League Championship. Buck also hit 5-16 (.313) with a double and three RBI. Buck pitched seven innings of one-run ball to clinch the Northern Division Championship and then won game four of the North American League Championship Series. Unfortunately, for Buck, the Capitals folded after the 2011 season, and Buck never threw another game of professional baseball. Buck was more highly regarded because it was perceived that he had a higher ceiling and that his pitching lent itself more to inducing a higher percentage of groundouts than Boyd. That does not make Buck a better college pitcher in my opinion. I think that Buck could have made it to the majors, but a mixture of bad advice, bad decisions, a bad situation, and just plan bad luck cut his career short. |
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